The
following is a list of related links to accompany your reading:
--
Start log: Sunday, December 3, 2000 2:50:58 p.m. CST
Wendy
as Oxymoron quietly enters.
Deena
says, "Thanks for showing up on this bright morning!"
Deena
says, "Were you waiting long?"
Oxymoron
says, "Nah - just casing the joint!"
Deena
says, "We have the discussion announcement in the general elit
chat links"
Deena
says, "You can share URLs by typing @URL http://www.whatever."
grubelflexx
arrives.
Deena
says, "Hi Grubelflexx"
grubelflexx
says, "Hi Deena"
Oxymoron
says, "Hi too, Grubelflexx"
grubelflexx
says, "Hey oxy, guess I'm a bit early"
Oxymoron
says, "Then so am I. You're always punctual?"
Margaret
quietly enters.
Deena
says, "Hi Margaret"
Oxymoron
says, "Hi Margaret. "
grubelflexx
says, "No, but this is a great topic."
Deena
nods and hands out relevance cookies
Oxymoron
says, "Glad you think so. Any particular interest in it?"
MerryD
arrives from Courtyard
Margaret
says, "Hi everyone."
Oxymoron
says, "Thanks Deena."
grubelflexx
says, "Yup -- I teach HT: Theory & Practice course"
Deena
says, "Why don't we start by introducing ourselves: What do
you do? DO you teach hypertext?"
grubelflexx
says, "Ta, Deena"
Salmon
breezes in.
Margaret
says, "Hello everyone. I am a member of trAce."
Deena
hands round never ending glasses of wine and never empty plates
of cheese
1
arrives.
grubelflexx
says, "OK, I teach at a small Cdn university, in the Comm Studies
Dept. where I teach CMC and HT, as well as virtual communities
and cyber ID."
Deena
says, "Hi Margaret, 1, Salmon, all. We are introducing ourselves."
Oxymoron
says, "I'm Wendy Morgan. I teach hypertext to undergraduate
teacher education students, who'll go out to teach secondary
English. I try to turn them on to hyperfiction, in reading and
writing, and suggest ways they might use this with their students."
Deena
says, "I am Deena Larsen, hosting the chat, I love hypertext,
but have not yet taught a course in it."
Oxymoron
says, "I should also add that I've been instrumental in infiltrating
public syllabi in my state of Queensland Australia."
Margaret
says, "No I haven't taught it either, Deena. "
Deena
says, "Wendy Morgan is our guest speaker today, as an oxymoron
:)"
JennyL.
quietly enters.
grubelflexx
admits to being Barry Joe at Brock University in Niagara
MerryD
says, "I am about to guest-teach hypertext/weblit on a teacher
training course."
Salmon
says, "I'm Katherine Parrish. I taught Ghschool English for
two years in Toronto and am now doing a masters in ed. specializing
in computers apps. I'm very very excited about this topic."
grubelflexx
says, "Hi Jenny L"
KLynB
quietly enters.
KLSalmon
[to grubelflexx]: I did a year of studies at Brock!
grubelflexx
says, "No! At the Fac of Ed?"
Deena
says, "Hi KLyn, glad you could join us. "
JennyL.
[to grubelflexx]: Hi! I am very new at conversing in a MOO,
so bear with me, I'm slow.
Deena
says, "No problem Jenny, just press "To type a message
and :to type an action"
Salmon
[to grubelflexx]: Nah... just some random courses to fill out
my degree. It was fabulous.
grubelflexx
says, "Salmon, any German crs?"
ceball
arrives.
Oxymoron
says, "So we've actually got quite a range of experience here.
Have Education faculty been slow on the uptake, as I think they
are, relative to Humanities and Media Studies etc?"
MerryD
says, "I am here to listen to Wendy and LEARN I hope."
Deena
says, "Yes, Wendy, all--what is the political context of teaching
ht at Universities?"
Deena
extends a warm welcome to all and is thrilled so many are interested
in teaching ht and why we should teach it.
MerryD
says, "Humanities AND education are very slow but I am trying
hard to get through to them."
JennyL.
says, "I'm pursuing a Masters in a Teaching Writing Program.
I teach at a high school where no one has even heard of hypertext
yet (except maybe my inventive students)."
Dane
quietly enters.
Deena
says, "Hi Dane, we are introducing ourselves and talking about
the context of teaching ht--have people heard of ht in your
departments, in your lives, etc..."
Oxymoron
says, "It's variable - there's a bit being done in creative
writing courses. Here in Australia we don't have a tradition
of composition courses - and I think that's kept the profile
of hypertext rather low."
grubelflexx
says, "I find it is generational, the Great Divide between scribal
and digital gens."
Oxymoron
says, "Jenny - I think that's great if you're able to learn
from your students."
Salmon
founds great resistance even amongst her peers when she brought
up the idea of hypertext during her B. ed. studies.
Oxymoron
says, "In my experience, many of my pre-service teaching students
are pretty conservative and scared of new text forms."
nm
ducks in.
Deena
says, "Yes, Jenny Love did a wonderfully funny piece about trying
to get tenure in ht in a lit department."
JennyL.
says, "Oxymoron - Yes, I think that is why I entered teaching
- to learn something new everyday."
Oxymoron
says, "So what's the reason for the divide then, if it's not
age?"
grubelflexx
says, "Perception of literature, entrenchment in a sense of
what literature is...and then trying to map HT onto that old
idea of literature."
Ev
arrives.
Deena
says, "Hi Ev, NM. We are talking about the way ht is perceived
in Universities."
Oxymoron
says, "Is it a luxury of the securely established, to be willing
to experiment? I agree about the influence of education."
ceball
says, "Like what Jenny said, it's a willingness to still WANT
to learn something new."
MerryD
says, "Young people have a much broader view of literature/narrative/whatever,
they're used to computer games and screen."
Salmon
says, "And there's a certain conservatism amongst teachers in
general, I find. Even the bright shiny ones."
Oxymoron
says, "That's why I try to get at my Teacher ed students, while
we're investigating what "literature" is, and how it's made
by our reading practices."
grubelflexx
says, "That's right Salmon. Try getting them to rethink their
course curriculum!"
Deena
says, "So are we talking about the climate in general in higher
ed or is the climate of conservatism just around ht? How does
higher ed react to new ideas in general?"
JennyL.
says, "My two bits, and since I am recently a pre-service teacher...
I think the education curriculum is overwhelming as it is. Perhaps
learning and teaching ht doesn't seem realistic or practical.
Consider - we are still trying to get down the classroom management
thing."
Deena
says, "Wendy, can you talk more about how you get students to
address their reading practices? I think that may be the key
to this accepting new kinds of lit bit..."
Oxymoron
says, "Is this conservatism also due to course constraints,
official syllabi too?"
grubelflexx
says, "That is what most would have us believe Oxymoron. But
I think it is a phobia of sorts."
MerryD
says, "You have to relate it to their syllabuses and the syllabuses
they will teach."
Oxymoron
says, "OK Deena - we start from scratch, not taking anything
for granted about what this beast deemed "literature" is."
Deena
says, "That sounds like a very valuable approach Oxymoron/Wendy."
Oxymoron
says, "We examine our reading practices, test the limits of
our (questionable) categories, experiment in reading and writing
unconventional fictions, look at them in relation to recent
literary theories etc."
Oxymoron
says, "I should add that in my state of Queensland, there's
a syllabus excuses too. In New South Wales senior secondary
students may (if their teachers choose!) study 'afternoon'
as one of their texts for focused study. I'm not sure how many
do this - but it's a very conservative state, educationally
- dominated by a retrograde public examination system. By ironic
contrast, in the "redneck" state of Queensland, all secondary
English curricula are developed school by school. Teachers are
encouraged to choose multimedia texts and hypertexts among those
their students study. And in the senior secondary Literature
syllabus, literary hypertexts are specified as a "Genre"
and students are encouraged to write as well as read, in making
responses to the guiding question: What is literature, and what
reading practices constitute "it"?"
Margaret
says, "So do you look at paper printed 'hyperlinks' too?"
Oxymoron
says, "Not sure what you mean by paper printed hyperlinks Margaret."
Margaret
says, "Stories where the reader can choose which page to go
to."
Deena
says, "How have the rest of your departments defined literature?"
Salmon
[to Oxymoron]: Is there any interdisciplinary work that happens
in this process? Do the art and English and communications departments
ever have the freedom to tackle this stuff together?
Oxymoron
says, "OK - yes, we do that, and we look at postmodern children's
books, and indigenous stories where there are several levels
of narrative going on. And at film too... Sliding doors, Run
Lola run."
Salmon
makes plans to move to Australia. Deena follows right behind
into the Aussie summer warmth and interdisciplinary cooperation.
MerryD
says, "Who managed to get all that included in the curriculum?"
Oxymoron
says, "I have to admit that I was instrumental in getting this
hypertext stuff into the curriculum."
ceball
says, "How did you argue for its inclusion?"
Deena
says, "Yes, can you provide some hints for the rest of us in
getting this into the curriculum?"
Oxymoron
says, "Well, it was helped by the fact that this is an extension
syllabus - not everyone opts for it. "
grubelflexx
has disconnected.
Oxymoron
says, "My hint is - get rid of public exams!"
ceball
says, "I guess I'm leaning towards what makes HT important to
you, enough to fight for it to be in the public schools?"
Oxymoron
says, "... But we've been moving in secondary English to a recognition
of sociocultural constructedness of language - so it was an
easy step from there to look at reading and writing practices."
Deena
says, "It seems as if the conservatism comes from predefined
syllabi and exams. Has anyone else found this?"
JennyL.
says, "Oxymoron - what do you mean by "public exams" - do you
mean state mandated?"
Dane
says, "Do the students produce their own hypertexts?"
Oxymoron
says, "Yes, the students do write hyperfictions and commentary
on texts they're reading."
Deena
says, "Right Cheryl. What do the rest of you think: Why are
we teaching hyperfictions and what is the role of new media
fiction in the schools? "
Dane
says, "What format?"
Oxymoron
says, "I think they're useful in opening up outdated conceptions
of what narrative is, for starters."
Deena
says, "Dane, in which classes? Are folks here teaching composition
courses where students write their own, and lit courses where
students read ht? What kind of classes are we teaching?"
JennyL.
says, "Oxymoron - do you have your students publish their hypertexts?
If so, I would love to see some samples - you know, what can
I reasonably expect students to produce."
Oxymoron
says, "Dane - they use either web based hypertext editors, or
Storyspace - sometimes hypermedia programs."
Salmon
says, "I think it's so exciting to let our high school students
know that a whole new genre is being born in their generation..
such a huge shift.."
Oxymoron
says, "Yes, I should put them on our course home page. "
Deena
cheers this huge shift with Salmon and is thrilled she is around
to watch it.
Dane
says, "I'd love to see what they were doing."
ceball
says, "What HT are your students reading?"
Deena
says, "Yes, who else is teaching ht composition?"
Oxymoron
says, "I think that many of us recognise that hypertext is a
way of representing the world that many of us feel "fits" with
our perception of multiplicity in ourselves and our world."
ceball
says, "I used to teach HT composition, but in a regular comp.
class. Now I'm trying to figure out how to use HT in more of
a mode-writing class."
Margaret
thinks hypertext is a useful way of choosing what to skip.
ceball
likes the idea of skipping.
MerryD
says, "What's mode-writing?"
JennyL.
says, "ceball - when you say regular comp. class - are you referring
to 'regular' high school students - or college?"
Deena
wants to hear more from Margaret about how hypertexts help people
choose what to skip.
Oxymoron
says, "I find that most of my preservice students love writing
hypertext fictions and collages, and "hate" reading much of
the stuff. They're not experienced in reading postmodern fiction
and they get perplexed. But they love the freedom of writing
not in straight lines."
ceball
[to Margaret]: Although I tend to call HT composition in terms
of lyric essays, to avoid the idea that skipping may mean leaving
something out to those conservative people.
Deena
says, "Wendy, I think what is great about your program is that
you are teaching teachers --thus reaching many more classrooms.
When the students get their own classrooms, do they get back
with you about their experiences in teaching ht?"
Oxymoron
says, "Agreed - and it's already paying off with many of my
ex-students."
ceball
[to JennyL.]: regular composition classes, I mean freshman level
(college) composition classes that weren't specifically designed
for HT writing, but I made them that way.
Salmon
nods.::would=20
Oxymoron
says, "Yes, some of them do - some don't have an opportunity
in schools, where there's limited access to computers etc. -
or retrograde heads of English etc."
Deena
says, "Going back to the earlier point about loving to write
ht and hating to read it--have the rest of you found the same
thing? What are students reactions to reading and writing ht?"
Margaret
says, "What are composition classes? (culture difficulty)"
Oxymoron
says, "That North American distinction between lit and comp.
is one that's foreign to Australia - for better or worse."
Salmon
wonders about the logistics of teaching a work of ht fiction
to a lit. class. How do you move through the text together as
a group?
Deena
says, "Margaret, I think composition courses are where students
focus on writing their own work. In the comp courses that I
have taken, we read to understand writing and techniques, and
then practice those techniques. Like writers workshops."
ceball
[to Margaret]: Composition classes are essentially courses geared
towards getting students to write essays, whether they be personal
essays or research-based essays (depending on the school's pedagogy,
etc.). Mode-writing, as I call it, is more like writing an argument
paper, then a response paper, then a...etc.=20
Deena
hastens to add that there are the two kinds of composition courses--writing
fiction and writing essays.
Margaret
is grateful for the definition.
Deena
says, "Good point, Salmon. How have you tackled teaching hypertexts?
What kinds of questions can you ask of a text where people have
skipped around?"
Oxymoron
says, "Ha, Salmon -- that's precisely the point. That brings
you up short about your assumptions about what you do round
a text in a lit class. I get my students to write a letter to
a future student, 'selling' the text and explaining how they
navigated round in it."
Deena
says, "Wendy, yes--the expectations of HOW we teach are VERY
ingrained."
Oxymoron
says, "And I think that this teaching practice of group discussion
leads to a convergent reading of a text, and the perpetuation
of a particular way of reading."
Deena
says, "Do you show other kinds of exercises for your students
to use in their classrooms?"
Haimish
slinks in (either through a tear in the space-time continuum
or, more likely, through a window that should have been barred).
Deena
says, "How are preservice / inservice teachers learning to read
and write and teach hypertexts--and what uses are they putting
it to? "
Oxymoron
says, "Exercises? Yes - lots of ways of introducing their students
to hypertext - e.g. using cards, with bits of a story on it,
which the students assemble - and then find that I've already
removed some of the cards - yet they managed to make a story
with the bits they had."
Deena
says, "Hi Haimish, we are talking about how students learn to
read, write and TEACH hypertext."
Deena
says, "Do you have many of these exercises written in a handy
place?"
Deena
looks to pass around Wendy's great ideas
JennyL.
says, "To Oxymoron - I love your idea about the letter
- sounds like a way to double check where they've been. Also
this would allow for personal conversations with the student.
Have you ever tried dialogue journals where the teacher and
the student have private conversations on the readings? It seems
like this would serve a purpose with ht as well."
ceball
laughs at Deena's nicely leading question.
Salmon
hrms. "Wendy, are you saying that there is something in the
group discussion of a text that locks us in to a way of approaching
lit that doesn't work with ht?"
Oxymoron
says, "I also do quite a bit with collage - drawing on their
experience of visual composition."
Oxymoron
says, "And yes, I agree that 'reading'is a constructed practice.
So how do we learn to 'read' hypertext?"
ceball
[to Oxymoron]: Can you explain the collage a bit more?
Oxymoron
says, "Journals are a good idea too - this letter stuff is just
a variant of that. They keep journals of their reading and writing
journeys, particularly keeping a finger on the pulse of their
(print based) experiences and expectations."
Deena
says, "Those journals would be really valuable for other readers
of the same ht--I am thinking of Jill Walker's essay on how
she read afternoon..."
Oxymoron
says, "Collage - it's a form of composition where you assemble
a lot of stuff that's to hand - bus tickets etc - into a pleasing
composition, where the juxtapositions are what matter."
Oxymoron
says, "Yes, we share journal entries as part of our reading
discussion - to see how variable the text is in the reading.
Anything to unsettle them, I say! - from their belief that there's
one text, one meaning."
ceball
says, "Yes, but do you bring in outside materials that
match the text of the HT to form the collage?"
Deena
says, "Wendy, do you connect the collages with the concepts
of montage, navigating, etc. in hypertexts?"
Deena
applauds the unsettling effects on Wendy's classroom
Oxymoron
says, "I bring in collage as a way of rethinking narrative and
how we construct it out of fragments. Some go on to create hypertext
collages themselves in their writing. And yes - I also relate
it to montage - with the exception that the variability of links
means the collage is in the reading, not just in the making."
Margaret
reflects on the notion that there are two forms of hypertext--one
meant to organise materials in new ways and one meant to disorganise.
Deena
says, "It sounds like many of these exercises are meant to take
a deep look at our ingrained expectations of reading. What do
students do after examining these perspectives? What kind of
insights do they get?"
Oxymoron
says, "Caught you thinking Margaret. Agreed."
Deena
likes Margaret's reflections and starts organizing and unorganizing
the same hypertext just to see what happens.
Salmon
chuckles.
ceball
says, "I can't say I agree with the idea that one sort of HT
is made to be disorganized. Maybe I don't understand where it's
coming from."
Oxymoron
says, "Insights? They come to recognise that reading isn't natural,
and that texts are fragmentary constructs."
ceball
says, "Although I'm sure many people think HT is disorganized,
but I would perhaps expect that from new readers of HT"
Deena
says, "How do your students use those insights when they begin
to teach reading and lit and writing? Do the new perspectives
come into play?"
Salmon
says, "Does this move in to their writing as well? I'm thinking
here of their critical writing. Does it help them to be a bit
more open-ended in their essays?"
Oxymoron
says, "Perhaps we want a slash there - dis/organised. Order
in apparent chaos? Certainly not a hierarchical order, necessarily."
Deena
says, "Right--we are taking apart the expected organization
here."
ceball
says, "Oh, that makes sense to me now. Thanks."
Deena
says, "Good point. How do these new perspectives spill over
into other areas of study and thinking?"
Oxymoron
says, "On their academic writing - they'd love to, some of them
- but they recognise that grades rule OK. And the genre of the
analytical exposition is pretty resilient."
Haimish
says, " I have a different perspective that Deena have suggested
I present. Feel free to ignore us :)"
MerryD
says, "Do they actually take it into schools and get kids writing
and reading ht?"
Haimish
says, "I teach CompSci students and they are still struggling
with the idea of signs and meanings being different. Mostly
what we did this year was talk about cultural constraints of
reading and how to make it easier to read scholarly articles
on computers."
Oxymoron
says, "But in schools, as opposed to universities, where there
may be more freedom - some teachers are experimenting with group
hypertextual commentaries on films, etc."
Oxymoron
says, "That's fair enough Haimish. It would be regrettable if
we turned ourselves into hypertext thought police."
ceball
thinks Haimish makes a good point.
Haimish
says, "My students did look (in class) at some hypertexts on
the WWW and in StorySpace. Some of them liked them but for the
most part they found the HTs confused and the interface (to
SS) awful."
Deena
says, "Wendy, all, why are we teaching ht?"
Deena
says, "Why are we teaching hyperfictions and what is the role
of new media fiction in the schools?"
Deena
says, "Haimish, what expectations were the compsci students
bringing to the readings?"
Haimish
says, "I haven't done it, but I like the idea of students creating
HTs together. Have any of you experience with that?"
Margaret
wonders if soaps aren't ironed out forms of hypertext
Deena
says, "Yes, what are the roles of collaboration in ht? What
kind of insights can we get from that?"
Deena
Keeps throwing out questions to dis/organize the room.
MerryD
says, "I do a lot of collaboration."
ceball
says, "I teach hypertext (more so that strictly hyperfiction)
to (hopefully) impart more of a critical lens regarding writing
and thinking. A new way (to them) of analysis."
Deena
then hands out dis/organizers for all to throw their thoughts
in.
Haimish
says, "My students seemed to be expecting that the HTs would
be clearer (or not much harder) than plain text and they expected
the various maps to help them."
Deena
says, "MerryD, what do your students learn in these collaborations?"
MerryD
says, "With everyone from librarians to kids: collaboration
is one of the most powerful benefits ht offers to the classroom."
Haimish
says, "Wait, there is one in the playground outside. I'll drag
them in ... No don't wait. We'll be back though."
Oxymoron
says, "I'd say we need to engage with this stuff because it's
already there, in the textual environment. And because its novelty
(for novices) means that it makes them call into question some
of their settled notions - and therefore perhaps expands their
repertoire and conceptions. And because ... why not have some
fun, and some confusion?"
MerryD
says, "Creativity, non-linear thinking, working together."
Deena
wonders what/who Haimish is dragging in.
Salmon's
class did a group hypertextual interpretation of Macbeth, It
was the first piece of group work I have ever done with a class
that I felt was a valid collaborative exercise.
JennyL.
says, "Now I'm starting to see how to possibly teach ht reading
and writing in my own classes. Collaboration makes sense, especially
when I am dealing with different abilities/technology ."
Oxymoron
says, "Tell us more about the Macbeth
collaboration."
Deena
says, "Salmon, what insights did your students get out of the
group interpretation? Would that differ from a group collaboration
on writing?"
MerryD
says, "Had a class of 12 year olds, the brightest helped the
special needs kids, they got a lot out of it in many ways."
Deena
is racking up all the advantages to teaching ht --creativity,
breaking down traditional expectations, seeing how to think
in new ways ...
Oxymoron
says, "Love the idea of moving away from that false (schooled)
notion that writing always has to be done in isolation, in competition
for grades."
Salmon
says, "Each student in the class had their own web page, but
there were themes that they followed through the play, and we
embedded links to group pages and individual pages right throughout
the text."
JennyL.
says, "Yes, I would love to hear about the Macbeth
collaboration piece, too....any website to visit?"
Margaret
says, "MerryD what hypertext work did the 12 year olds do? Was
it fiction?"
Salmon
says, "Questions of interpretation came up all the time -- how
you arrange things on a page, and how that might privilege one
viewpoint over another..."
Deena
says, "Also, now is a good time to ask everyone to share their
URLs from class experiments, exercises, syllabi, and projects
and exercises, and..."
Salmon
says, "Oh, sure... it's rough though =3D) lemme go dig it up."
Oxymoron
says, "Excellent idea. A sec. teacher did something similar
with his students, studying an Aust. film - and exploring some
of the stuff that wasn't in the film too (e.g. women, Aboriginal
people etc.)."
MerryD
says, "Not necessarily, but mostly: we built it round a theme
that could be interpreted in fiction, poetry, nonfiction, whatever
they were most attracted to."
Deena
says, "To share URLs, just type @go URL "http://www.whatever"
MerryD
says, "But all hypertextually linked!"
Salmon
shares a URL: Macbeth
collaboration.
Deena
says, "Have you guys seen the Victorian
web with Brown? I think this is a great first example of
collaborative essay writing."
ceball
groans upon realizing that her old web page with good examples
of HT student essays has changed servers...
Oxymoron
says, "http://www-iet.open.ac.uk/iet/meno/morgan1.html
gives an early example of my students' responses to this stuff."
Haimish
says, "Expectations: Hi again, I've finished debriefing the
student (who didn't want to type zirself). I don't think they
had explicit expectations although the idea of a story without
explicit closure was a surprise. They also expect maps to show
the readers where they `are' not to show them several ways in
which they are lost."
Dane
says, "Oxy......do they hate reading hypertexts the way people
hate reading stream of consciousness?"
Deena
says, "So Haimish, we come back around to expectations..."
Deena
says, "Dane, say more about how people hate reading stream of
consciousness."
ceball
says, "I love 'several ways in which they are lost.' "
Oxymoron
says, "Haimish - I agree with your students' perplexities. That's
why I think that shorter hypertexts are the way to go - e.g.
Lust
or I
have said nothing - where they can begin to get the picture
and see the significance of returning to the same node etc."
Deena
says, "Yet you see the same thing reflected on Wendy's site--
'I hate reading jumped [incoherent] things, but I love writing
them.' "
Deena
says, "and another quote 'The very thing I hated about reading
"Afternoon," I loved when writing my hypertext. I
loved how I could think of anything, and providing there was
a thread of association, I could include it.' "
Salmon
[to Oxymoron]: Can you give us some examples of web based ht
that might be accessible for high school students?
ceball
says, "There's such a fine line between an incoherent jump
and a fine link."
Oxymoron
says, "I actually think we'll make hypertext readers by making
hypertext writers. They'll only read when they want to learn
how to write better."
Deena
says, "Good point Wendy. I think the shorter works let people
explore without getting too deep into something."
JennyL.
Smiles at Salmon for bringing up high school.
Haimish
says, "Hmmm, I'll make a note about _Lust_
so that I can use it as an example next time. Is it on the
WWW or somewhere else?"
Deena
says, "_Lust_ is from Eastgate--I will put up the URL for the
catalogue when I put up this archive."
Oxymoron
says, "I think that some of the stuff - including Deena's -
published in WordCircuits
or New
River - is accessible."
Salmon
nods and scribbles.
Deena
says, "BTW--if anyone finds other stuff and URLs to add in,
please let me know. We can also keep a post going in the ELO
bulletin board for good stuff..."
ceball
says, "Yes, and to second Deena's motion to Eastgate, the
reading room there has short pieces that are very accessible."
Dane
says, "But high school students study Joyce and that's not very
accessible."
Margaret
thanks Wendy for her paper. I think it is the difference between
being a spectator and a player. Some people hate spectating.
ceball
[to Dane]: But they don't read Joyce when they're learning to
read.
Haimish
says, "My classes looked about part of Deena's vicious
quilts and had some good reaction, and some bad too."
Deena
says, "I wrote Ferris
Wheels to be accessible."
ceball
[to Dane]: IOW, give them a few smaller pieces to start with,
then give them the longer, more rich pieces.
Dane
says, "Sure."
Oxymoron
says, "It's partly an issue of "branding" - people know that
Shakespeare is good for you, and that it's an experience you
have to have. They don't yet know that about hyperficiton -
though maybe Joyce's afternoon
is approaching that status?"
Deena
says, "Good point Cheryl. You have to start anything small--and
I think that goes for ht, too."
Deena
says, "I like 253,
Lies,
and Same
Day Test
as small hypertexts to start people with.
Oxymoron
says, "And we don't yet have the commentaries, the Monarch /
Cliff / Brodies whatever notes for hypertexts (as if we could
/ would)!"
Deena
says, "We had a great chat on what hypertexts were easy to teach
May 13... that is a good place to go for references. The URLS
for these works and the conversation on hypertexts to teach
is at http://www.eliterature.org/com/archives/chat051300.html"
JennyL.
says, "The term "branding" is an excellent one. Just think -
someone way back probably had to shake up the curriculum in
order to get Shakespeare in there."
ceball
says, "I still like to give Hypertext
Gardens (while not a fiction piece, it's a nice essay on
the structuring of HT)."
Deena
hands out more and more dis/organized cliff notes
Dane
says, "I agree with ceball, the gardening analogy is great."
Deena
says, "Also, the field changes a LOT--I think there are more
pieces now that I would recommend than I knew about on May 13.
How do people keep up with what is good and what is easy to
each?"
nm
says, "I think our young people should really be reading things
like The
Unknown."
Oxymoron
says, "Yes - good idea about HT Gardens. I try to make up hypertexts
(short ones) to give my students "instructions" - so they're
doing it while learning it. In turn, some of my students write
their "letters" to future students as hypertexts."
nm
shares a URL.for _The unknown_: <http://www.unknownhypertext.com>.
Deena
says, "Are there resource centers that share good resources
for teaching?"
Deena
says, "How do you guys develop your curriculums?"
Salmon
[to nm]: As long as you give them a hefty companion to western
lit so that they can keep up with the references."
nm
says, "It's important for children to get their desire for drugs
satisfied through literary references, you know."
Deena
hands out drugs and relevance
ceball
says, "I know there must be resources out there (like ELO),
but still I rely on email word of mouths from other people who
*happen* across good HT."
Oxymoron
says she'll have hers in a teacup.
Deena
says, "Which leads us back--I always loved sitting in a class
and saying WHY are we learning this stuff--what good will it
do? If I were in your classroom, Wendy, all, what would you
tell me?"
nm
shares a URL: <www.unknownhypertext.com/newyork3.htm?975880782>.
Deena
hands out more cityscapes in tea cups
Haimish
says, "We are revising our curriculum right now. We are merging
two schools but we have a CompSci standard curriculum to use
as a backbone."
Deena
runs and hides from the conservative bugbears of standard curricula
ceball
says, "I recently read the mission statement of my University,
which says its purpose is to bridge business and technology."
Deena
says, "WHY are we teaching ht? What benefits are there in learning
how to read and write ht?"
Salmon
says, "It's a powerful tool to help us think about the act of
reading- which we've hit on a few times today."
Oxymoron
says, "Deena - I think I tried to answer that question a while
ago - mind you, the students also ask the same thing. Because
it's there, because it's interesting, because it expands our
repertoire in reading and writing, because it nudges us to think
again about what we've taken for granted about reading and writing
and the nature of text as something that stands still and can
be pinned down on the page."
Deena
says, "Cheryl, how does ht help us bridge business and tech
and lit? Could you spell it out for us?"
ceball
says, "Lucky for me, I'm in the humanities dept., and yet the
school makes no mention of communication. I think HT is one
way of breaking those molds and being more creative and critical
in our communication strategies."
Haimish
says, "Our overarching goal has been to graduated students who
have passed certain core courses and taken a specialization
in 1 of a few areas. The dean also wants an interdisciplinary<mumble>
concentration, so we're trying to identify one course from each
specialization to include in the non-specialized specialty."
Deena
solemnly copies down Wendy's answer as a manifesto...but really
likes it, because it is there...
Deena
says, "So, Haimish, what would you say to someone to explain
why they should take a ht course."
nm
says, "I think it's great the hypertext is being taught because
it helps people to realize that the type of reading they do
when they read _Moby Dick_ can be done when looking at a screen,
where so many of the words we encounter are, nowadays."
Haimish
says, "Deena, tell the engineers to leave us alone and we'll
make the bear bug off."
ceball
says, "I'm teaching all engineers this semester, and it's hard
to bridge technology and business with writing. They think it's
simply another English class."
Haimish
says, "That depends what kind of a HT course."
Deena
doesn't understand Haimish's bear bugs...
Oxymoron
says, "One of the things I like about the hypertext conference
- and Deena for one knows this - is the way it brings together
the scribblers and techies."
ceball
nods, good point
Dane
says, "Gotta go and thanks everyone for the chat"
Deena
cheers for bringing scribblers and techies together.
Haimish
says, "An awful pun-like thing it was: bugbear =3D bear (I know
it really isn't but y'know what they say about consistency)."
Dane
has disconnected.
Deena
can't resist getting in an ad for CyberFlats
in August 2001 where we will work intensely with writers and
programmers.
ceball
wants to add her ad for Computers
in Writing-Intensive Courses (CIWIC) next summer -- there's
a special session for new media and how to use it in the classroom.
JennyL.
says, "Bye everyone ... duty calls elsewhere, but thanks for
letting me sit in on this conversation. I'll track the rest
later on the archive."
Deena
says, "I have a real life emergency--my neighbor just came to
the door and needs to go to the emergency room. May I ask you
all to stay and have fun chatting and figuring out how to teach
ht in schools and universities?"
ceball
says, "Good luck Deena. Wish your neighbor well."
Oxymoron
wishes she knew more about what's happening out there, in extra/ordinary
schools, where teachers and students are doing interesting stuff.
If we knew more about what's actually happening, it might enable
more teachers to make more happen with hypertexts.
Salmon
says, "eep.. bye Deena."
Salmon
. o O ( an ELO for teachers? )
Haimish
says, "I know a highschool history teacher who used to (about
5 years ago) have her student write HTML essays. She was extraordinary."
MerryD_again
says, "Wendy, have you seen Kids
on the Net?"
Oxymoron
says, "Bye Deena, and thanks for all your inputs. Hope all is
well with the neighbour."
Oxymoron
says, "MerryD - no. Tell me more."
MerryD_again
says, "Lots of school ht work"
Margaret
has disconnected.
MerryD_again
shares a URL: <http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/kotn/special.htm>.
Salmon
says, "Anyone seen the stuff at the Beacon
School in New York?"
Oxymoron
says, "Nope. Tell more."
MerryD_again
shares a URL: <http://kotn.ntu.ac.uk/castle/>.
Oxymoron
says, "Hey, love that febrile flag!"
Ev
says, "Bye all. It was an interesting chat."
Salmon
says, "Beacon has a focus in tech, aesthetics and community
and they do some groovy stuff.. The English teacher had a piece
in Kairos."
ceball
says, "I love the u-grad program here at Michigan Tech -- the
STC program is all about creating and analyzing and building,
etc. multimedia and hypertext and web design -- preparing for
a grand career out there in the cyberworld (or technical writers,
too). I'm in the PhD program here, and I love the interdisciplinary-ness
of it all. That's my two cents on good schools/etc."
ceball
says, "Anyways, thanks for sharing all your wonderful ideas
today, everyone. Gotta go do a paper...Bye!"
Haimish
says, "Hmmm. We have students here who do web-type stuff as
part of a masters in electronic commerce. "
Haimish
says, "I suspect that they are more interested in b2b and usability
than literature though."
Salmon
shares a URL: <www.beaconschool.org/>.
Oxymoron
says, "When you look at the textual world we inhabit, it's so
hypermediated, it's remarkable that education hasn't caught
up. I'd put webbing and hypermediating at the centre of a hyperventilating
curriculum."
Salmon
thinks that's the quote of the day.
Oxymoron
says, "Thanks. But for me now - it's time to get on with the
rest of my virtual life. Been great talking to you. I'm looking
forward to reviewing our chat and following up."
Salmon
says, "Thanks so much Wendy."
Haimish
says, "I saw part of an interview with students from Ryerson
talking about buy-nothing-day. The national TV hosts (2 of them)
couldn't understand that we live in a commercial culture and
that this is the first generation to have ads in school washrooms/restrooms/facilities/whatever-you-call-em."
nm
waves bye, needing to return to end-of-semester schoolwork that
does not have anything to do with hypertext.
Haimish
says, "I think that many students don't see the culture nearly
as clearly as we do -- because they haven't been exposed to
as much as we have and don't yet have the intellectual maturity.
A big part of my job, as I see it, is to help them grow without
exerting undue influence. Since I'm at a University, I can truly
say that I help them to learn but that I don't teach. I'll be
leading undergrad classes in a few months so we'll see if I
can last."
Salmon
says, "And you'll be introducing ht to those classes?"
Salmon
nods. "I should be running along soon..."
Haimish
says, "One class will be advanced web technology. I'm not sure
what to do yet, I'm thinking of having them write some servers.
The other will be intro to human-computer interaction and that
one might see some HT. I haven't decided yet."
Salmon
says, "It'll be interesting to see the reactions."
Haimish
says, "It will depend how I can make the HT fit the course."
Salmon
loves squeezing her interests into curriculum.
Haimish
says, "It was fun to show afternoon
to my grads, but not fun to have them say it made them nauseous."
Haimish
says, "Well, I should probably get back to my work now. Thanks
it's been fun and informative."
Salmon
says, "Wow. I'm taking a course in Cybertext in the English
department here at the graduate level. We'll be looking at afternoon
and Patchwork
Girl next term."
Salmon
says, "Me too. Good luck with your course."
Haimish
says, "Perhaps I could have my students look at MOOs..."
The
housekeeper arrives to cart Haimish off to bed.
BBly
quietly enters.
BBly
says, "Hm. Rusty."
BBly
has disconnected.
--
End log: Sunday, December 3, 2000 7:43:45 p.m. CST
