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Chat Transcript: July 15th 2002
Incubation Online Chat

Monday July 15th (in LinguaMOO)
This transcript produced by Deena Larsen

Straight to log missing introduction

If you can't come to trAce's Incubation conference in person, be there in electronic spirit! TrAce is sponsoring a Live Chat event at Incubation in collaboration with TrAce, ISEA (Inter-Society for the Electronic Arts), Fine Art Forum, and Electronic Literature Organization.

Communicate and hobnob with your creative counterparts as part of a series of online meetings at real life conferences to help bring members of the creative electronic community together. We will talk about important points in the conference and foster relationships between online writers and artists with questions such as:

  • How can we use the online environment to further collaborations between artists and writers?
  • How do the online environment and other new media tools modify the relationship between writing, language, imagery, culture, and ethnicity?
  • How has online communication and coordination changed art and writing?
  • How are lines between art and literature blurring?
  • What new ways are we using to communicate with art and writing?

Live Chat Guests

Electronic Organizations

Live Chat Guests

Linda Carroli has written non-fiction as a journalist, essayist and critical writer. She is Australian Editor of fineArt forum, a science, art and technology electronic magazine. Linda has written several hypertexts both independently and collaboratively including the award winning Water writes always in Plural with Josephine Wilson. Her most recent work, speak: a hypertext essay was presented as part of the ELO's State of the Arts Conference 2002, the Ink.ubation Salon 2000 in conjunction with the trAce conference, Incubation in 2000 and MAAP99. She is currently developing a new work, racconto.

Mez does for code poetry as jodi and Vuk Cosic have done for ASCII Art: Turning a great, but naively executed concept into something brilliant, paving the ground for a whole generation of digital artists." (Florian Cramer). The impact of her unique code/net.wurks [constructed via her pioneering net.language "Mezangelle"] has been equated with the work of Shakespeare, James Joyce, Emily Dickinson, and Larry Wall. Mez has exhibited extensively since the early 90's [eg Wollongong World Women Online 1995, CTHEORY's Digital Dirt, Prague's Goethe Institute, Digitarts '96, ISEA_97 Chicago, ARS Electronica_97, The Metropolitan Museum Tokyo, SIGGRAPH_99&00, d>Art 00&01, and in _Under_Score_ @ The Brooklyn Academy of Music 01]. Mez is also a networked jillaroo, an online journalist and co-moderator of the _arc.hive_ experimental mailing list. Her awards include the 2001 VIF Prize by the Humboldt-Universitat, the JavaMuseum Artist Of The Year 2001, and the 2002 Newcastle New Media Poetry Prize. She was also a finalist for both the 2001 Electronic Literature Organization's Fiction Award and the 2002 READ_ME Artistic Software Award (honorary mention).

Alan Sondheim's books include the anthology Being on Line: Net Subjectivity (Lusitania, 1996), Disorders of the Real (Station Hill, 1988), and .echo (alt-X digital arts, 2001) as well as numerous other chapbooks, books and articles. His video and films have been shown internationally. Sondheim co-moderates several email lists, including Cybermind, Cyberculture, and Wryting. For the past several years, he has been working on an "Internet Text," a continuous meditation on philosophy, psychology, language, body, sexuality, and virtuality. Sondheim lives in Brooklyn and Miami and teaches at Florida International University; he lectures and publishes widely on contemporary art and Internet issues. In 1999, Sondheim was the second virtual writer-in-residence for trAce. He is currently Associate Editor of the online magazine Beehive, and has assembled a special topic for the America Book Review on Codework. His video/soundwork has been recently screened at Millennium Film (NYC), as well as Western Ontario and York Universities (Toronto). He currently works on video with his partner Azure Carter, and soundwork in live and recorded performance.
Internet Text at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt
Partial at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html
trAce Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/
CDROM of collected work 1994-2000/1 available: write Sondheim at sondheim@panix.com.

Noah Wardrip-Fruin is a fiction writer and artist. He is working with Nick Montfort and Michael Crumpton on _The New Media Reader_ for MIT Press. His previous work includes Gray Matters- a collaborative fiction embedded within images of the human body - which he completed as an Edward Albee Foundation Fellow. Its exhibition at the Sandra Gering Gallery was the first public installation of a Zooming User Interface. He has been creating web-specific hyperfictions since 1994, when he made public the first version of The Book of Endings.


Electronic Organizations

trAce connects writers and readers around the world in real and virtual space. We promote an accessible and inclusive approach to the internet with the focus on creativity, collaboration and training. This is where writers meet to experiment, create new work, and expand the potential of the global literary community. As well as Web design and other consultancy, we offer creative writing courses through our Online Writing School. Incubation is our biennial International Conference on Writing and the Internet.

Founded in the Netherlands in 1990, ISEA is an international non-profit organization dedicated to the promotion and development of the electronic arts. ISEA's membership and collaborators consist of a wide range of individuals and institutions involved in the creative, theoretical and technological aspects of the electronic arts.

Electronic Literature Organization
ELO's mission is to facilitate and promote the writing, publishing, and reading of literature in electronic media. It emerges from the concerted efforts of writers, publishers, technologists, and nonprofit experts to make the electronic space richer by investing in its cultural development.

fineArt forum
fAf = art + technology netnews
The longest running arts magazine on the Internet
fineArt forum (ISSN No: 1442-4894) began in 1987. Its Executive Editor is Paul Brown & its Editor-in-Chief Nisar Keshvani

-- Start log: Monday, July 15, 2002 2:27:04 pm CDT

Warming up

][mez][ flickas & flippes
>> Smiley_Guest is now known as noahwf.
][mez][ sinks her t][erra][eeth in2 the red flashing strobe & grunts
][mez][ says, "Hey there noah"
][mez][ says, "we b early"
noahwf says, "Ah - isn't there usually a practice first?"
Deena arrives.
][mez][ says, "Probalee"
Deena says, "Hi all"
][mez][ says, "How.D deena"
Deena says, "Can you hold down the fort while I run to the other building for my glasses?"
Deena says, "Brb"
noahwf says, "Of course"
Deena says, "Thanks"
][mez][ says, "Sure"
AlanSondheim and calmontgomery arrive.
noahwf says, "Hi Alan"
][mez][ says, "Eya Alan"
AlanSondheim says, "Hi Everyone"
][mez][ says, "well.come calmonty"
AlanSondheim tests movement here
AlanSondheim says, "Grrr!"
AlanSondheim's arms fall off
][mez][ says, "Its 5.45 am here & I have a shocka of a flu!!"
AlanSondheim says, "There you are"
][mez][ says, "Eheh"
][mez][ grabs Alan's arms & flickas them in2 a new limb][ick][shape.
AlanSondheim says, "Are we online at all? - is the audience there @ trAce?"
][mez][ says, "Ni dea as yet"
AlanSondheim grabs Alan's arms and flickers them back together
][mez][ says, "Oops"
][mez][ says, "I mean no idea as yet"
][mez][ says, "Deena has just left 2 re: trieve her glasses"
AlanSondheim says, "Even with Carpal Tunnel I gotta rite to write, right?"
Deena says, "Hi alna, not sure if trAce is on yet"
AlanSondheim says, "I'd rather be called Ulna than Alna..."
][mez][ makes my.newt slices in Alan's arms & fills them with texual Supa Glue
AlanSondheim says, "How many Macs?"
Deena says, "Deena returns breathless"
Deena says, "who me, Alan? now I have 200 macs in my refuge for wayward but repentant macs"
Impressionist_Guest says, "Hello?"
Deena says, "Hi guest"
AlanSondheim says, "In Texas? I forget where... Hi guest -"
AlanSondheim says, "We're eating lunch at this end, veggie dogs "

Breaking the speed limits

Incubation2 arrives.
Deena says, "Hello incubation"
Deena says, "Does that mean we are on live?"
Impressionist_Guest says, "Hi sorry, first time, just testing-you are all too fast for me!"
][mez][ says, "well.come impressionist!"
Deena says, "No problem Impression, just relax and have some fun here... there will be a log..."
][mez][ says, "Well, try & scan wot u can...b selective if u kneed 2 b...it will get preddy fast&furious soon I m.magine..."
Impressionist_Guest says, "Thanks, not my chosen name, just got given it.."
Impressionist_Guest says, "Its all too fast!!!!!!!!!!!"
Deena says, "Impression, there is very little we can do to slow the pace, but don't worry about catching everything. read and respond to what you can--this is a bit like drinking out of a firehose!"
Deena comforts impression
Impressionist_Guest says, "Thanks Deena"

Before the auditorium fills

Incubation2 says, "We have 15 minutes before the audience turn up here in the auditorium"
Deena hands round wine with no name and an ancient lineage for the people in the evening, strong coffee for the morning folks, and lunch for the rest of us
Impressionist_Guest says, "What happens then?"
Deena says, "We will have a group of people talking and a couple of typists typing comments into the MOO for us to react to.
Incubation2 says, "Me and a typist here right ow -- I'm nervous! How will we interpret an audience's comments in time before you lot have moves on!"
AlanSondheim says, "Incubation, just let us control the audience completely; don't let them speak!"
Incubation2 says, "Better give priority to anything typed at this end"
Deena says, "Well, Alan, let's not go that far..."
][mez][ says, "Incub2, just try 7 flow with it.....u won't b able to cap.tour all responses...."
][mez][ says, "Oops I mean try 2 flow with it"
Deena says, "I will try and moderate by going back to unanswered stuff as much as I can..."
AlanSondheim says, "How long is our session here?"
Deena says, "We are going for about an hour....people can stay after and chat about cabbages and kings, but we will officially end at 3 my time, 10 Nottingham time, and 7:00 am mez time"

Where are people?

Incubation2 says, "Where are you impressionist?"
Deena says, "I am sneaking in on a government computer usually reserved to control access to US dams, so I may be pulled off and have to sneak to another computer..."
AlanSondheim says, "My cheeks are stuffed with peanut butter cookies"
Deena says, "Oh great, so you are warming up?"
AlanSondheim says, "Deena, don't release anything..."
Deena says, "My hand is staying STRICTLY off the controls..."
Incubation2 says, "Deena's controlling dams? could be a bit like that here..."
AlanSondheim says, "Deena, turn the valve on your left, just a little..."
][mez][ lungs r stuffed with un.mentionable crap;0)
AlanSondheim says, "Mez, for godz sakes please e-laborate..."
][mez][ says, "Got the flu Alan is all:)"
Deena wants to hear the un.mentionables...
AlanSondheim wants to BE the un.mentionables
Chris Funkhouser arrives.
Deena says, "Hey hi Chris!"
Incubation2 says, "Hi everyone typist here ~(mary)"
AlanSondheim says, "Hi Chris!"
Incubation2 says, "(Helen)hi chris I remember you from last incubation..."
Incubation2 says, "Bit nervous as well..."
][mez][ says, "Heya mary"
Deena says, "But it would be good, Mary, if you could preface the Incubation with who is talking."
][mez][ says, "Ahh don't worry mary we don't bite much:)"
AlanSondheim's getting soaked
Chris_Funkhouser says, "Greetings all..."
Incubation2 says, "Mazzy says hello (honestly she's started already)"
][mez][ says, "Yes, it is, that's a scanning technique works well"
AlanSondheim says, "Chris, where are you?"
][mez][ says, "Heya chris:)"
Chris_Funkhouser says, "O were it were that I was in Nottingham, "
Deena says, "Hi mazzy! how is life?"
AlanSondheim says, "Me too... I hate it that I couldn't attend..."
Chris_Funkhouser says, "But alas in a bunker in western new jersey"
Incubation2 says, "(mary) it's lovely here in Nottingham!"
Deena says, "Yes, and knew the mysteries in Nottingham"
][mez][ says, "I'm happi 2 b virtually present;)"
Deena provides magical ale from a Nottingham pub
AlanSondheim says, "Chris, come visit sometime!"
Chris_Funkhouser says, "Yeah me too mez"
][mez][ hi-5's chris with her keyboard

Getting the notes on the live chat

Deena says, "Can folks click on the live chat--our guests and live chat--organization notes?"
AlanSondheim says, "Deena, what do you mean?"
Deena says, "Alan, there are two notes at the left hand side of the screen. Can you click on them and read them?"
AlanSondheim says, "Not on this screen -"
Deena says, "Hmmmmmm. Alan, do you have a button on top that says look?"
AlanSondheim says, "There are notes perhaps on the right -"
Chris_Funkhouser says, "DL I am able to read that info fyi"
Deena says, "Mary, can you click on the two notes for the LCD projector?"
][mez][ says, "U using telnet Alan?"
AlanSondheim says, "No, I'm on through WinXP"
Deena says, "Oh yeah, right. I am dyslexic. It is the RIGHT hand side, and I don't have my cheat sheet on this computer."
AlanSondheim says, "I just clicked and got Live chat --our guests - is that what you mean?"
Chris_Funkhouser says, "AS you like XP??"
Deena says, "Yep, that is what I mean"
Deena says, "Great."
AlanSondheim says, "Yes, I've been doing presentations with it - used it at Newark"
][mez][ shuudas at the thought of an XP.er
AlanSondheim says, "I can run 4-5 movies simultaneously plus sound and it doesn't crash."
Chris_Funkhouser says, "Unfortunately it won't handle summa my tools..."
AlanSondheim says, "Chris, we should talk sometime - we miss you!"
Chris_Funkhouser says, "Likewise, bro..."

Getting drinks

Impressionist_Guest says, "when does the good stuff start? I might need a drink"
linda c arrives.
Chris_Funkhouser bows to all
Incubation2 says, "(Mary) goes to get herself a drink too "
][mez][ says, "Make me a tea while yr there?"
Deena says, "Sneaks out to get a Dr. Pepper from the engineers."
][mez][ says, "Heh"
AlanSondheim says, "Looking for tea..."
linda_c says, "Greetings to all - hope I am not late ..."
][mez][ says, "Thx Alan. rosehip would be great:)"
][mez][ says, "How.dee Linda, not 2 late at all"
Incubation2 says, "(Mary) people are arriving now - may go quiet before the start"
Deena says, "Great Chris, thanks"
Incubation2 says, "(Mary) handing over to Cahoots"
][mez][ says, "Ahh okie no prob"

Behaving ourselves in front of a live audience

Deena welcomes her online guests and serves everyone tea, crumpets, and ale from the best of Nottingham's pubs
Incubation2 says, "People are coming in -- behave yourselves!"
Deena quick puts on her best guest smile...
AlanSondheim says, "We'd like to welcome the audience to the real world..."
Deena says, "You can have private conversations by typing page NAME MESSAGE"
][mez][ simmas down [a notch]:)
Deena and hides whatever that was behind her back...
][mez][ grans deenas se.cret][e][ & x.poses it 2 all:)
Deena runs after mez to stop that...
][mez][ says, "Heh"
][mez][ stoppers
Deena says, "Welcome to the odd and fun world of chatting. This is an interactive board and we will have many threads of conversations at once..."
][mez][ says, "Ping!"
][mez][ says, ":)"
][mez][ says, "..& Linda time, unless her geobod is there @ Nottingham & I don't know about it..."
AlanSondheim says, "The lag is a bit bad at this end -"
Char arrives.
Deena says, "Yes,
some folks will have some lag and will answer questions out of order...this is ok. Just relax and have fun..."
][mez][ offas quik licks 2 the lag god][dess][
Char says, "Has everyone arrived yet?"
Deena quietly hands mez a virtual chicken to sacrifice along with that...
][mez][ pre.pares 2 flow & ][w][eb.b.....
AlanSondheim laughs.
Chris_Funkhouser says, "Read you quietly and clear"
Char says, "OK, I am missing Dawsons Creek for this.."
diana slattery arrives.
][mez][ says, "Heya Diana"
diana_slattery says, "Hey mez"
diana_slattery says, "Chris! Long time no "See""
linda_c says, "My geobod - no one's ever called it that before - is in brisbane"
][mez][ takes the chicken, names it Bob, and sets it quietly in her virtual corna
Deena says, "Some of our time is spent in goofing around, but this helps explore new ideas as well..."
][mez][ says, "Right Linda, so its relative. lt's early there as well...."


Incubation2 says, "People are beginning to assemble here in RL - we are about to start"
Incubation2 [to Deena]: "Are we logging this? is the log switched on?
Deena says, "Mary, are we on screen? Please tell us when we are so we can all look professional...."
Deena says, "Mary, we are logging this and the log is switched on. "
AlanSondheim says, "The screen at this end is actually flickering a bit."
Deena says, "As soon as I get a breather, I will edit the log and the final log will be on trAce and ELO (and FAF and ISEA sites if they like)"
Incubation2 says, "You are on the screen already :-) incidentally this is now jane typing - we are typing in rota to confuse you"
Deena resolves to name everyone with incubation Bruce just to keep things clear...
Chris_Funkhouser says, "what commands are available?"
AlanSondheim says, "Part of it for me is trying to see what commands are available on LinguaMOO"
AlanSondheim says, "None of the emotions except laugh I think"
][mez][ switches her face in2 pre.setting, all smoothe & s][i][l][icon][ick....
Deena says, "Chris, all of the MOO commands are available..."
AlanSondheim comes his rugged good looks into acceptable shape.
AlanSondheim says, "That's "Combs""
Deena greets Diana and all
AlanSondheim says, "Should I change my name?"
][mez][ says, ""Comes' sounds more n.teresting Alan:)"
AlanSondheim says, "I am so sorry..."
diana_slattery says, "I'm envious--never been a Bruce."
AlanSondheim's hair is on fire but he'll wait...

Actually starting

Incubation2 says, "(sue) says we are starting"
Chris_Funkhouser says, "Ok, cool "
Deena says, "Ahh we are starting...the online and in person audiences settle in..."
Deena says, "While Sue is introducing the chat, I would like to explain a bit about why we are here. We have had joint chats with the ELO and trAce for 18 months now, and we explore many topics in new media literature, art, and communication. One of these chats was on collaboration between electronic creators---musicians, artists, and writers. We decided to bridge conferences with chats to get more people involved in these conferences and to share our different perspectives. Thus, we had a live chat at ELO and now this chat at trAce. We are planning future chats at other conferences."
][mez][ shifts & pre.cepts, all cyst.ms go:)
Chris_Funkhouser says, "Dig it..."
Chris_Funkhouser says, "All!"
Deena says, ""
][mez][ purrs [m.ceptibly]
AlanSondheim says, "Cool!"
Incubation2 interprets, "Sue is introducing the concept of MOO and how this chat will be working"
Chris_Funkhouser listens to the popcorn popping
cleo says, "Hello all"
][mez][ says, "How.dee cleo"
Deena says, "We have the archives of these chats, schedules of upcoming chats, and more at both trAce and ELO http://www.eliterature.org click on community"
Deena says, "Great. Sue, please let me know when our guests should introduce themselves. "
Chris_Funkhouser says, "Long live the ELO &c."
Incubation2 interprets, "Helen is about to start MCing the proceedings. welcome Helen Whitehead"
Deena greets everyone and serves another round of tea, crumpets, ale, and other good English goodies
AlanSondheim says, "I'd rather coffee"
Incubation2 offers Alan some coffee
Chris_Funkhouser says, "It _is_ teatime in NYC"
AlanSondheim says, "Thank you! **shifts awake**"
cleo says, "what is Marmite btw?"
diana_slattery provides intravenous coffee socket

Introducing players

Deena says, "On the right hand side of the screen, we have notes about these organizations (ELO, trAce, faf, and ISEA) and bios for our online guests"
Deena hands round marmite laced with coffee
AlanSondheim says, "Then we can skip the intros -"
Deena says, "Nah, go ahead and introduce yourselves anyway..."
Incubation2 interprets, "Helen tells the group about how the online chats came into being for trAce and ELO etc
Deena says, "One of the fun things about the chats is many folks wear masks or alias's...we find out only half way through--or never---who they truly are..."
][mez][ is a net.w[c]o[de]rker + text][d][ual shifta
][mez][ is neva .here. nor .hear.
][mez][ c.odes & creches Alan in<2> a ballish node
AlanSondheim says, "Mez, don't get me started!"
][mez][ says, "Ok Alan, I'll b.have"
][mez][ says, "..moderately;)"
AlanSondheim says, "I'm Nikuko Daishin, Travis, Julu, Jennifer, Travis, Honey, Tiffany, Azure"
AlanSondheim says, "I code <myself>"
Deena hands Alan a ribbon to pin up allhis identities
AlanSondheim says, "Julu thanks you (long arms)"
AlanSondheim says, "@create $thing called Ball!"
Chris_Funkhouser says, "Beware the man behind the man behind the curtain"
diana_slattery says, "El SxRcmz [untranslatable] identifier"
AlanSondheim says, "Curtains for that man!"
cleo says, "Lol!"
Deena says, "Linda, Noah, Diane, all could you introduce yourselves?"
diana_slattery says, "Creches or kvetches?"
cleo says, "Has incubation started? is Margie in Nottingham?"
][mez][ says, "Kee.vetches is good diana:)"
CynthiaBR, Joel W arrives from Courtyard
Deena says, "I am Deena Larsen, a hypertext and new media addict. I have sought treatment for this, but...usually just settle for being an online chathost instead."
Incubation2 says, "Helen introduces the guests"
Chris_Funkhouser says, "3 cheers for Deena Larsen!"
diana_slattery says, "I am Diana Slattery ramping up to human pattern language and audible frequency."
][mez][ says, "I did intro my.self deena...should I unpack it?"
Deena says, "Mez, could you unpack a bit?"
][mez][ says, "Sure"
Deena hands mez a bigger suitcase
][mez][ creates & ab.uses the tesual possibilities of the net.work & the code that under.pins it
][mez][ says, "Oops tesual = textual"
diana_slattery says, "we could build strong collaborative in yer face right now starting with what found in mez suitcase. valise?"
Deena hands Diana and mez keys to collaboration in the suitcase
Chris_Funkhouser shouts out to Maria & Patrick Herron if he's in the house
Incubation2 shouts "YO!" to chris from maria (and Alan too)
Deena says, "I need to remind the folks online that we have a lot of people in Nottingham who may not be in on all the culture, so I will ask for explanations..or let some jokes just go...."
diana_slattery says, "The jokes are the fun, folks out in Nottinghamland, "
Joel_W says, "Hey Alan""
AlanSondheim says, "Let them go perhaps? An hour isn't much time, especially when we're typing here -"
Deena says, "Right, and we want to get to the meat of the conversation...how to promote online collaboration between electronic creators"
Incubation2 says, "Hello - we are all ready to start here in Nottingham"
Deena says, "Terrific"
Chris_Funkhouser says, "Like devising strong collaborative interfaces?"
Incubation2 [to AlanSondheim]: "Margaret is missing you in car park."
Munch_Guest says, "Greetings from just outside the Arctic Circle"
Munch_Guest is now known as Moonlander.
Deena greets MoonLander from the Artic Circle
Moonlander says, "Hi -- it's chilly here."

Introducing the organizations

Deena says, "First off, could Linda introduce faf, Cynthia introduce ISEA, and Incubation introduce trAce? We have strong organizations developing for electronic creators, and have representatives of these groups here, and I would like them to introduce their organizations..."
linda_c says, "FAf is an online art, science and technology news magazine ... our 15th anniversary this year ... "
][mez][ ferra.lisas
CynthiaBR says, "ISEA is the Inter-Society for the Electronic Arts. We bring together artists from all disciplines, researchers, curators, critics, and other who want to promote the electronic arts internationally, in a noncommercial context. We are best known for our International Symposia, which are actually organized by individual groups around the world."
diana_slattery says, "Hope to make Nagoya this year."
AlanSondheim says, "What's in Nagoya?"
CynthiaBR says, "Great -- Nagoya is the location of the next ISEA"
diana_slattery says, "ISEA symposium this year, with CAiiA along board."
CynthiaBR says, "Yes, we often meet at the same location as CAiiA"
Chris_Funkhouser says, "_when_ is the Nagoya conference?"
CynthiaBR says, "Nagoya ISEA is at the end of October"
Incubation2 says, "who are CAiiA?"
diana_slattery says, "CAiiA is the Center for Advanced Inquiry in Interactive Arts--out of Wales."
AlanSondheim says, "I'd love to participate -"
CynthiaBR says, "Http://www.isea.jp"
Incubation2 says, "Is there going to be an ISEA in Wales?"
diana_slattery says, "ISEA Montreal 1995 was a big inspiration for me getting going in Electronic lit. back then."
CynthiaBR says, "Thanks Diana -- good to know ISEA 95 was worth the work"
CynthiaBR says, "The next ISEA is planned for 2004, on a boat between Finland, Estonia, and Sweden"
diana_slattery says, "On a boat? Really?"
Deena says, "wow...I need to plan for that one!"
CynthiaBR says, "Yes - we had a small boat ride after the last time we were in Finland and it was great -- isolation is a wonderful thing!"
AlanSondheim says, "Not always -"
CynthiaBR says, "Well, some people are actually SHY about meeting others and on a boat it is more natural to exchange ideas, and the beer flows more easily"
Incubation2 introduces ourselves, "We are two glasses of wine down (per person) and we are enjoying the first day of our international conference hosted by trAce"
AlanSondheim says, "Thanks"
Deena says, "The Electronic Literature Organization is dedicated"
Deena [to facilitate]: and promote the writing, publishing, and reading of literature in electronic media. ELO features a directory of literature, and has just hosted a great symposium on literature. The Gallery of writers is still up and is a wonderful resource for new media works and promote the writing, publishing, and reading of literature in electronic media."
][mez][ *.ini.all.ises sweeping act.ions 4 all the dis.connect.awes
Incubation2 [to mez]: "Do you think in the square brackets as you use them in your text?"
][mez][ is a shifting ava.tar][& feathered][ian, based in net.workian space & code.b][w][reak.a thyme
][mez][ says, "I do "Think" in the bracketed sense incub2, yes...its a procedural cognition as well as developing in tan.dem with the physical act of typing.... "

Where are you in reality?

Incubation2 says, "A question to all - could you let us know where you are in reality?"
AlanSondheim says, "Brooklyn, New York, small loft"
][mez][ is located under a doona in Sydney in a small brick hous][nich][e
diana_slattery says, "Troy, NY Academy of Electronic Media"
Deena says, "Incubation, I am in a tiny room in Denver Colorado where we control dam operations for the western US... I work for the Bureau of Reclamation and am sneaking in on their computer system..."
CynthiaBR says, "In reality, I am in Providence, RI, USA, but I live in New Haven (I teach at RISD) and last week I was in Avignon, where I used to live, and the week before that in Novosibirsk , Siberia, where I had an exhibition"
AlanSondheim says, "I used to teach at RISD"
Deena applauds Cynthia's travels
Chris_Funkhouser says, "Frelinghuysen township (warren county), New Jersey"
cleo says, "In Pittsburgh, Pa"
noahwf says, "At the scholarly technology group at brown - I was wondering why it was so quiet when I realized I'd disconnected"
Incubation2 nods at Alan
Grindal Guest arrives.
Deena welcomes Noah back

Organizations for electronic creators

Deena says, "What are your organizations doing to help electronic creators?"
cleo says, "Ah, even when it's trying, it's still usually productive, in some way [often inner...]..."
Joel_W says, "I'm in midst of a collaboration with Fatima Lasay in the Philippines, which I'm finding difficult. We discuss the project in the June issue of Leonardo Electronic Almanac, if it ever gets on-line. (There seems to be a hangup in Singapore.) But the difference in our working methods, our cultural imperatives, even our ages and experiences, and the very distance, are frustrating."
Moonlander says, "I collaborate with penguins"
Deena says, "Moonlander, do you use online environments to help write and collaborate?"
Moonlander says, "I tried to set up a collaboration over a weblog but it fell apart and we resorted to email. What did I do wrong?"
Deena says, "Good question, Moon. It really depends on the people and what you are doing..."
][mez][ says, "Moonlander, weblogs survive as anecdotal mediums that often can act to stifle a collaborative leaning...I'd add.vocate email instead, d.pending on the collaboration direction..."
CynthiaBR says, "I would be interested to hear of successful collaborations"
AlanSondheim says, "For myself, I've always preferred talkers, which can be configured without the "Say" etc. and entered in any number of ways"
diana_slattery says, "I use online collaboration in the Glide visual language collabyrinth"
Deena says, "Hi Grindal, we are talking about promoting online and other collaborations with electronic artists and writers..."
diana_slattery says, "Http://www.academy.rpi.edu/glide"
AlanSondheim says, "Simon Mills and myself a few years ago creating the LOST piece for trAce - and that's still running"
][mez][ says, "Like y-talking Alan?"
noahwf says, "The Impermanence Agent was a very electronic collaboration. There were four of us, and we sometimes met in twos, but mostly worked via email, web, and phone - until the Guggenheim Presentation, when we met as a group for the first time"

Why use the MOO?

Incubation2 says, "Jane Dorner is asking why use MOO over other types of interactive chat?"
AlanSondheim says, "The MOO is fairly stable in Windows; IRC can be a lot noisier and intrusive."
][mez][ says, "Jane, MOO usage n.courages a type of lateral participation that n.hances the possibilities of creation of texts & alternate communication avenues"
Chris_Funkhouser says, "MOOs rock"
cleo says, "Ah, I'm from NJ [Princeton] - hello Chris, nice to finally 'meet' you."
Deena says, "How do faf, ELO, trace, and ISEA use the online environment to further collaborations between artists and writers? "
AlanSondheim says, "Email is what I generally use - it's much more supple and doesn't require windows etc."
Grindal_Guest has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Grindal_Guest.
Chris_Funkhouser says, "Using WebCT to 'collaborate' with students in an online Information Design class at NJIT - used the same system with the collaborative performance group at e-poetry 2001"
CynthiaBR says, "I am not as concerned with the format of communication (web, email) as with the cross-cultural and inter-disciplinary challenges"
AlanSondheim says, "WebCT is a bit clunky and operating-system dependent, unfortunately... I teach in it, with trace"

Incubation questions

Incubation2 requests of the group, "we have loads of people here with questions for you - could you hold on your discussions to take questions from Nottingham?"
Deena says, "Incubation folks, please feel free to jump in with comments and questions...you have good and fast typists there..."
linda_c says, "It might be worth thinking about how artists use our organisations to further collaboration in online environments ..."
CynthiaBR says, "Alan - is it on line somewhere"
Deena says, "Sure, bring on the Nottingham contingent!"
][mez][ says, "Sure inc, fire away..."

Mac break

Incubation2 says, "Margaret would like to know, "Deena, I heard today that you have 20 different computers of different ages - is this true?""
Deena says, "Um... I have to confess. I now have 200 MacClassics, SEs in my apartment. And 18 Mac Pluses free to a good and loving home..."
Deena says, "And 5 working macs"
Deena says, "Steers the conversation back to collaboration and stops blushing"
Incubation2 says, "Um, what do you want 200 Macs for?"
diana_slattery starts up her 18 wheeler with a great roar to head for Denver
Deena says, "My first work, Marble Springs, only works well on a MacClassic, so I am doing "Hard copies" of the book"

Narrative ideas

CynthiaBR says, "During our last chat, we talked about ideas of narrative -- I think that for visual artists and sound people narrative is a very fluid concept -- and I am not sure how that fits with ideas of writers"
AlanSondheim says, "You might think as well of an email list as collaboration - it's constantly changing, almost like an epistolary novel. A list can lead to all sorts of cross-fertilization; the Wryting list I co-moderate constantly has people writing into or through one another's works."
Incubation2 says, "what is your favourite communicative communication software/medium is? (question to the group)"
AlanSondheim says, "A unix or linux terminal."
Joel_W says, "E-mail, really""
Chris_Funkhouser says, "MOO and networked classroom-studio"
Deena says, "I like the chats as we can talk in real time. I also email and do web ct"
AlanSondheim says, "The chatboards attached to WebCT permit self-collaboration through multiple logins..."
AlanSondheim says, "Breaking up the language as one types, shredding meaning"
][mez][ says, "Cynthnia, it d/pends on yr classification of writers...take the net/code.workers involved in the trace gallery this year...they break the accepted classifiers that accompany the writer label, but still produce writing in terms of the actual stylistic approach...."

More ways to collaborate

Deena says, "It depends, sometimes it is best over the phone to talk over a quick problem, or email to develop a long term communication...What kind of collaborations have people been involved with here? We saw Noah's work with the Impermanence Agent, are there others?"
Incubation2 says, "Most people here have shouted out that email is their favourite, however, Ev says anything other than email and Margie says reading other peoples stories and poetry she says she feels she is communicating with the authors"
Deena says, "Email provides more time to think."
Incubation2 says, "P.s. I favour moo :-)"
AlanSondheim says, "The phone is incredible... you actually hear the VOICE of someone who is typing away. Someday phones will be widespread..."
Deena says, "What new ways are we using to communicate with art and writing? "
Chris_Funkhouser says, "Alan, I noticed, too, that webct logs are good for that wild splicing"
Deena hands Alan a phone card
][mez][ says, "My fav medium is the flow of information/data that is accessible via the net, & the constant tug of n.tites & inpho.mation that x.ists there..."
CynthiaBR says, "Of course labels of all kind will break down as soon as we are all mixed together in the computer, but still, some people are better with words, some with color, some with sound"
cleo says, "I enjoy chat, but I find it difficult to retain the focus really needed for work - I prefer email, more intimate"

Shape riding

AlanSondheim says, "I haven't done that through the logs - I prefer shape-riding the material as it comes along - I use IRC /set log on as well -"
CynthiaBR says, "Alan - please say more about shape-riding"
AlanSondheim says, "I mean almost like a jazz riff, writing/wryting in real-time, interacting with the code sometimes, trying to get something THROUGH the code in spite of it "


Incubation2 [to mez]: - how did you put together the gallery? was that mostly by email?
][mez][ says, "The gallery was constructed via email, yes...."
Incubation2 jumps up and down, waving frantically, cos she can
Incubation2 says, "Sorry, just demonstrating emoting for the group"
Incubation2 waves.
Incubation2 grins.
Incubation2 grins evilly and begins to fade away, leaving only the grin.
Deena hands incubation a delicate tray of cookies to hold while she jumps up and down
Incubation2 eats a cookie with delight
Deena hands round octopus sushi and dried eki with salt
diana_slattery shape-shifts into octopus, then offers rides.
Deena says, "But how have these tools shaped our writing? Noah, could you have done the Impermanence agent without email or ..."
Chris_Funkhouser says, "I'd like to see a multi-user database (php) capable interface"
Joel_W says, "Has anyone collaborated with one doing the words the other the images?"
CynthiaBR says, "I have collaborated with sound people, but not word people (I do images)"
AlanSondheim says, "Joel, yes, I've worked with Barry Smylie that way. And Lewis Lacook for that matter."


Deena says, "Yes, how can we get different types of artists (sound, imagery, text) to work together?"
Deena says, "How do online communications help us to do that"
AlanSondheim says, "They bring everything together - especially if one is working with a programmer -"
noahwf says, "For the agent, I wrote the words and designed some algorithms, a.c. chapman did all the image preparation work (and took the photos that were not found images), brion moss did the majority of the software, and duane whitehurst did the sentence recombination code"
Deena says, "How has online communication and coordination changed art and writing? "
AlanSondheim says, "For example, just in terms of interests, I feel closer to Mez than to most of the people here in New York -"
][mez][ spins thru punct.ewe.ated code, all h][c][i.pur.ring....
Chris_Funkhouser says, "well, it speeds things up, let's us get it on like this..."
Joel_W says, "Alan. Can you tell us the process you and Barry used? How did you communicate?""

Gallery redux

Incubation2 requests Mez, "Can you tell us a little more about the gallery while the others are eating squid?"
diana_slattery feels properly consumed
AlanSondheim says, "I DON'T EAT SQUID!"
Incubation2 apologises to Alan and offers him a lettuce
Deena apologizes and then does not laugh out loud as there are engineers looking over her shoulder and wondering about squid
AlanSondheim says, "By email all the same, the same way you work I think - sending images and texts as attachments, .swf files back and forth etc."
Deena hands Alan some better coffee
diana_slattery says, "Octopus and squid are different"
CynthiaBR says, "I have horrible coffee at this end"
AlanSondheim says, "Deena, thank you, now if you'll just turn that valve..."
diana_slattery disappears in cloud of ink, overwriting self"
Deena hands Diana an ink saver and an ink eraser"
][mez][ says, "Diana, the gallery x.ists online @ http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/incubation/gallery.cfm"
][mez][ says, "The _Net & Codeworkers Inc[ubation]_ gallery I curated x.plores the way artists/workers r utilizing net.worked spaces as creative outlets, as well as how code is b.ing used as an n.ttegral c[reative]omponent...."
diana_slattery says, "Mez-- gallery or is on line? Will be in sydney for brief stop on way to Perth, wish I could see"
Incubation2 says, "EVD [br]rackets at mez how did the gallery being frozen in time appeal to you or not?"
][mez][ says, "EVd..u mean the gallery b.ing presented online only rather than a physical space? ot the fact that it was compartmentalised from the flow of the net?"
Deena says, "Mez, do you have a URL for the gallery?"
][mez][ says, "well, I add.mitt I had a struggle ova this, as it does strangle the actual procedural natur][al][e of much of the code/net.work accessible there...i hope that absorbers will use it as a spring][mutha][board 4 a search 4wards..."
][mez][ says, "Http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/incubation/gallery.cfm"
xIncubation2 says, "EVD to mez do you see as possible a dance out forward into email/list of the reactions to gallery perhaps?"
][mez][ says, "Absolutely, that's wot I'm hoping 4........"

Typing speeds

Incubation2 says, "Those who know, could you let us know your typing speeds?"
AlanSondheim says, "Probably over 100 something or other"
Incubation2 is impressed, "100? that's fast!"
diana_slattery says, "30 wpm on a good day"
Joel_W says, "Wow!" I use four fingers.""
Incubation2 says, "And, does anyone use voice recognition software?"
Chris_Funkhouser says, "(i plan to start using voice-recognition software)"
cleo says, "Moi aussi, as I can only use one hand to type with."

Online communication

Deena says, "Chris, how does online communication help speed up collaboration?"
Chris_Funkhouser says, "To begin with well, it avails instant communication, spontaneous interaction, quick access to information (in its ideal state)
Deena says, "How can we develop more collaborations with people in ISEA, faf, trAce, and ELO?"
AlanSondheim says, "Deena, why the emphasis on quantity this way? You might have an email list with general announcements, who is looking for who - what sort of help or collaboration is desired - you could have this sent to combined memberships"
Deena says, "Good idea Alan, really I just wanted to brainstorm more ways to facilitate communication and collaboration. I am not sure our groups know so much about each other..."
AlanSondheim says, "Probably words"
AlanSondheim says, "Azure understands what I'm saying sometime..."
CynthiaBR says, "I agree - we need to find a way to foster more collaboration"
Deena says, "And the possibilities that faf, trAce, ELO, and ISEA bring for electronic communication and creation"
AlanSondheim says, "Email lists, I'm convinced, are the best in-depth way to go - people can archive the messages and contacts they want, etc."
][mez][ says, "Collaboration will come if we actively seek 2 re.write some of the traditional conceptions of how artists & insitutions conceptualise their functions..."
CynthiaBR says, "ISEA and other organizations I think help to erase isolation - so if you are the only one in New York doing something different but some one in Moscow is interested then it can be encouraging"

Face to face as the norm

linda_c says, "I think it might also be worth exploring how to make collaboration a normative practice rather than an alien one - in online environments practitioners are more responsive to collaborative projects "
AlanSondheim says, "Linda, that's true; I would also like to have more face to face meetings, and ones that somehow all of us could attend, no matter the income level. This is just a pipe dream... -"
Incubation2 says, "what is our goal in collaboration? from Margie. What is it that we want more of to do?"
Deena says, "Good point, Margie, why do we want to collaborate on projects?"
Chris_Funkhouser says, "Work in new media or whatever you want to call it really needs to be collaborative, imho"

Deeper perspectives

Deena says, "I have found that it brings a different and deeper perspective to the work, that I like exploring ideas with others and getting their insights--into things I would have never thought about"
CynthiaBR says, "I definitely think that collaboration is the way to go in the future -- once ideas are in the fluid medium of the computer, why not let them flow into other forms and other heads?"
Chris_Funkhouser says, "_needs_ to "
Chris_Funkhouser says, "Be because of its interdisciplinary nature"
diana_slattery says, "Ftf hard to beat, Alan"
Deena says, "Face to face meetings are really helpful, and conferences seem to be so packed with info and contacts..hard to sort out sometimes..."
Deena says, "What other face to face meetings could we suggest"
AlanSondheim says, "I don't think it _needs to_ be anything, Chris. A lot of my work is produced alone; I need quietude and intensity for that - it's a world I enter into and shape. -"
Chris_Funkhouser says, "There are few folks out there equipped to do it all (present company excluded to some degree)"

Collaborating in multi-media environments

Incubation2 says, "Helen answers, in a multi-media environment it is more difficult for a single person to do all the jobs - much like arts and crafts when different people did different types of crafts to create one single art at the end"
AlanSondheim says, "Don't forget sometimes Hell can be other people -"
Deena says, "Great point Helen--we can't ask people to be programmer, musician, artist, writer, etc all in one!"
CynthiaBR says, "The problem is that to get most collaboratons to work, they end up focused on easily definable ideas, rather than fluid evolving ones"
cleo says, "I feel, to an extent, that web work is somewhat of a collaboration in itself - consciously or no, as there is always the connection of so many voices infiltrating one's atmosphere"
Incubation2 says, "She continues, if I want to do something that involves advanced technology (or skills I don't have) I need someone with the technical skill to support the project"
AlanSondheim says, "Deena, perhaps more geographic ones - if anyone comes through New York, New Jersey, etc. - Chris and I are here!"
Chris_Funkhouser says, "Yeah, true Alan - the trick is to find people who you groove with"
Deena says, "Maybe we should set up a map with who lives where..."
Deena says, "I know informally, but that is about it..."
CynthiaBR says, "To get access to technology you need to communicate with scientists -- that is an story all together"
diana_slattery says, "Map good idea. I'm going to NY more often these days"
Deena says, "Or a place where people can offer skills and talents to look for collaborators"
In the distance you hear someone's alarm clock going off.
Fjord_Guest wavers and vanishes into insubstantial mist.
Joel_W says, "Cynthia: In practice, the problems are not technologically as much as psychologically.""
CynthiaBR says, "I agree"
Deena says, "Joel, could you say more about that?"
AlanSondheim says, "Chris, I agree, but you couldn't have, say, a Dostoevsky that way. I'm not referencing the medium, but the intensity of the created world. With Nikuko, I've had to ride her, and she me; but it's internal, implicit, and at least for me has benefited by that -"
][mez][ con.tract][ual][s, re.moving the taint of the label & the reel.ity of the au.thor....
noahwf says, "I think of electronic writing in similar terms to writing for performance - it is sometimes successful in the context of a one-woman show, but more often as part of a collaborative production"
AlanSondheim says, "But in fact mez, you're known for your style, your worldview, no matter who you're collaborating with!"
Deena says, "Noah, could you say more about the collaborative productions?"
AlanSondheim is thinking of Rimbaud's 'I is an other'

Mapping the creators

Deena says, "Incubation, please feel free to jump in the fray."
Incubation2 says, "Miranda suggests having a map showing who knew each other, who had previously collaborated with who and to see of the link grew, if it did encourage more collaboration"
Incubation2 says, "Helen says yes, we'd like to add that in"
Deena says, "The map with that info could be fun. It would have to be a database to make it work..."
Chris_Funkhouser says, "Maybe we should make a list of top-notch collaborations--"

Thinking differently

Joel_W says, "Artists are trained to think for themselves and creative from their imagination. Collaboration invades this space. We need to think differently."
][mez][ says, "But Alan, it's not _me_ as d.fined in an ego sense, but a proj][acc][e][pted][cted sense of me that n.hances/actualises the colab..... "
AlanSondheim says, "But sometimes artists aren't trained to think that way at all - in fact I came up equally through music collaboration."
CynthiaBR says, "Or Joel, we can think creatively and then work with juxtapositions of ideas and see what happens"
Deena says, "Joel, others how have you thought differently in a collaboration?"
Chris_Funkhouser says, "I try to be as flexible & open as possible..."
AlanSondheim says, "I just get very very very wary when someone says things _should_ be this way or that. We all find our paths, our works are distributed and appreciated or not. There's no should in art, at least none that I recognize. And I do think we _all_ think differently every time we work -"

Skill sharing and troubleshooting

Incubation2 says, "Miranda says you could use this for skill sharing/trouble shooting"
Deena says, "Yes, troubleshooting and asking questions would be a great help. Something like "Ask the experts" website"
Incubation2 says, "Helen That's a great idea - a mentor pairing"
Deena says, "Incubation--how many folks there have participated in writing or creating collaboratively?"
Joel_W says, "Well, I'm just learning. Let me think about this.""
linda_c says, "I am currently participating in a mentoring partnership - it's a worthwhile process"
CynthiaBR says, "I think that the saddest collaborations are when it is clear that one person had more creative license than others -- such as concerts where the music is great but the imagery is merely decorative or pictorial"
Chris_Funkhouser gassho to Alan
Deena hands around different mindsets, deliberately programmed without the should
Incubation2 says, "Helen says Artists have to think differently, but a lot of writers don't want to, they want to stay with print"
][mez][ starts a swooning swim thru n.crypt.ted silks & textual g.losses....
Incubation2 says, "Marge asks for a show of hands about who has worked collaboratively and almost everyone has put their hands up - but a lot of people have left the room!"
AlanSondheim says, "But if artists want to stay with print, so what? There's incredible work going on in print as well!"
Joel_W says, "Also, one person may put more energy into the project than the other. We have larger lives.""
Deena says, "Incubation, do you see any difference between collaborating online and collaborating in print? what about book writers who work with illustrators?"
CynthiaBR says, "Helen - why is the challenge different for writers than for artists? We could still paint, afterall"

Out of the room

Incubation2 says, "Helen says it has been interesting watching people self-select themselves out of the room"
Deena says, "Yes, it is late there, and folks are probably tired..."
Deena says, "Oh dear, I was hoping to be more inclusive... but this is an odd medium..."
Incubation2 says, "Barbara It is frustrating not being able to interact directly"
Chris_Funkhouser says, "what prevents someone from interacting directly?"
Deena says, "Barbara, yes, and then this goes quickly so your point may be covered too late, but you can always bring up something from earlier!"
Incubation2 says, "Sue says the problem as been that we wanted lotsof people and we go them, but they are talking to each other not to us because they have forgotten that one person is asking the questions for 25 people who are sitting and watching on screen - and their fingers are itching "
][mez][ says, "Ahh yes, the ppl in the hall, sitting there p.a[ggresse][ssively...i feel 4 u all...."


linda_c says, "If artists want to stay with print, that's fine but they shouldn't then impose that on other practitioners - that everything that follows has to reproduce print ... "
CynthiaBR says, "Illustrators usually are not collaborators, they are working under direction -- they can be very creative, but not as free"
cleo says, "This is something I've found negative in collab. in my case - because I'm strong visually, people usually expect me to be their illustrator. Period."
][mez][ my practice n.volves a collaborative base, as I construct my net/code.works only in the net, in the data fluid that x.osts there & via the nodes/n.tites that shape them....
AlanSondheim says, "What about having a website listing collaborations, combined with an email list? It could all be cross-organizational ..."
Incubation2 says, "Chandra says people may be put off by the technology not the chat, and Mary says people may feel excluded, and"
Rilke Guest arrives.
Chris_Funkhouser says, "At the last incubation, I talked about Reiner Strasser/Christy Sanford's Water water water. I *love* that piece..."
CynthiaBR says, "Cleo - that is exactly the problem that I have seen so many times!"
AlanSondheim says, "Mez, I agree with you there; to that extent and with the feedback, imitations, mockings, as well, my own work is collaborative through lists and email."
AlanSondheim says, "Chris, me too!"
Deena says, "Hi Rilke, we are talking about collaboration--and the difficulties in a live chat..."
AlanSondheim says, "All of these problems would sort themselves out through the website/email - those who want help or inspiration or collaboration could use it, and those who don't, wouldn't. I've always had to rely on the kindness of programmers myself. .."

Jane's workshops

Incubation2 says, "People here are asking about making objects in Moo and Jane is drummin' up support for her workshops"
CynthiaBR says, "who is Jane and what are her workshops?"
Deena says, "You can make objects in the MOO, and it is a great space for teaching, meeting, etc.."

Freeware and collaboration

David_Clayton arrives from Lingua House
Deena says, "Hi David, we are talking about collaboration online and in person"
David_Clayton says, "Ok "
][mez][ ob.[e]jects, re.in.[e]vent.ing....
AlanSondheim says, "I also want to point out the HUGE amount of freeware out there, like Blender and Gimp - using these things is a different form of collaboration altogether, but sharing software and software ideas is wonderful."
Deena says, "There are a lot of ways to collaborate on line..."
Joel_W says, "I did a collaboration with a person who lived close by, and it was difficult as we had different ends in mind. His was commercial, mine wasn't""
Deena says, "I'd like to go back to Cleo/s point earlier---you have a strong visual aspect and also write. How are lines between art and literature blurring?"
][mez][ says, "Alan, I add.[am in the]mire yr proposition of usages of email, & as u know I use email lists 2 create my works, but don't 4get the top-heavy natore of most lists & corresponding aggressive moderator actions that can occur when collaborate wurks r attempted via the lists......."
AlanSondheim says, "Mez, I totally agree..."
Deena says, "Yeah, I can imagine the chaos when everyone calls out questions"

Collaborating on a poem

Incubation2 says, "Chandra would like to do a collaborative poem on line"
Chris_Funkhouser says, "There's is a format to this?"
Incubation2 says, "Shall we start or will you?"
Incubation2 says, "Yes, words, spaces etc."
Deena Sure, let's do a collaboration online...
Deena says, "You can start, incubation, and we will keep the chat flowing. In the log, I will separate the text..."
Incubation2 says, "Our 1st line is... ~"Far away space time and matter" (chandler)"
Deena thinks and scribbles "From the Moon's outer circle
Chris_Funkhouser says, "From Acrostic Ocean"
Deena scribbles on the collaborative poem "Stretching boundaries
Incubation2 says, "Beyond the sun to the everlasting time of the future"
Chris_Funkhouser says, "Outside Nottingham. Certain hours these active"
Deena scribbles a line for the poem "E-merging and e-raising lines together
Chris_Funkhouser says, "Ancestral dimensions, greenery,"
Chris_Funkhouser says, "Trail off from concrete lids, skyward"
Deena exploring new worlds...
Chris_Funkhouser says, "Into gardens? This does not"
AlanSondheim says, ""Emerge""
AlanSondheim says, "Don't ever"
Chris_Funkhouser says, "Necessarily take away from"
AlanSondheim says, "Don't now"
Chris_Funkhouser says, "Towers, mysterious steam clouds"

Lines get blurry

AlanSondheim says, "Deena, are the lines between art and literature there AT ALL at this point? I tend to think more of symbolic flows these days, filling out forms, extending them and the media, intertwining..."
CynthiaBR says, "Literature has always (until now) been linear, whereas art (especially painting and sculpture) has not been linear -- are these distinctions breaking down?"
noahwf says, "One way I think we might see 'boundaries blurring' is that electronic writers are learning (perhaps through contact with electronic artists) to think as broadly about the ways/places writing might manifest as, say, visual artists think about ways/places their work could manifest"
cleo says, "I think creatively they always have - within. It's just that this media/um makes the possibilities vaster, and more realizable. But 'visual' artists have been using 'the power of the word' in their work for a looong time."
AlanSondheim says, "I don't think literature is linear at all, but that's another discussion altogether..."
Deena says, "Alan good point, the lines are blurred..."
Rilke_Guest says, "I don't think of it as a broke down distinction so much as a built up merger"
Deena hands round mind stretchers
AlanSondheim says, "Please say hello to everyone for us..."
Rilke_Guest says, "Bye David"
Deena says, "Incubation did you want to start the poem/lines? Then everyone can jump in..."
CynthiaBR says, "Alan, I agree - literature is not really linear but that is the discussion that we need to have to understand how to collaborate!"
AlanSondheim says, "Cynthia, yes!"
CynthiaBR says, "I used to be a painter, and painting is actually a lot like hyper-texte, but only painters think so!"
AlanSondheim says, "Cynthia, especially for me because painting is overdetermined historically - every painting seen through every other -"
cleo says, "Alan, but I think all art is really [seen through cultural history]"
CynthiaBR says, "But now with the web and other inter-active media "Digital-painting" takes on even more layers of meaning"
Deena says, "Ahh but this is text and we could go further into image"

About collaborating in MOOspace

Deena says, "Thinks we should have a writing space and will see how to set one up for next time..."
][mez][ says, "..even this attempt @ collab has already built-in assumptions, with lines & traditional structured narratives falling in2 place...."
Deena draws a sun corona for the collaboration
AlanSondheim says, "Cleo, I also agree, but painting has its own, fuzzy, boundaries, norms, and positionings in relation to art/cultural history. I don't paint, but it fascinates me because of its highly problematic position today."
Deena hands cynthia and all many layered paintbrushes to collaborate with
Incubation2 says, "[b]rackets@mez time frozen our archives valid evd"
CynthiaBR says, "Of course everything is seen culturally, including even the culture of how to evaluate and value art"
][mez][ says, "If u have any ][at][temptings 2 n.gage these revel.ations, email them 2 me at netwurker@hotkey.net.au. afta all, the net is where we should b concentrated...."
AlanSondheim says, "I tend to short-circuit infinite regress, for better or worse..."
Deena hands mez several engagement appointment calendars to keep her assumptions in place
][mez][ says, "Heh"

ISEA helps

CynthiaBR says, "How can ISEA help with collaborations?"
Deena says, "Cynthia, could we get together and discuss some of the ideas that have come out of this, like getting a map/database of people who would like to collaborate, working art conferences, and intermingling notes and news?"
Incubation2 says, "Helen - we'll continue the collaboration topic at future chat"
CynthiaBR says, "Emerge OR merge?"
AlanSondheim says, "E-merge of course!"
][mez][ plucks & re.vulvas wurds, n.cryp.ting[ling].....
Deena says, "Linda, Nisar, Sue, Helen, others in these organiszations same question"
Chris_Funkhouser says, "Grace and beauty of other facets--"
AlanSondheim says, "Mez, that's naughty..."
Deena says, "And could we set up a similar online bridge at ISEA in Japan?"
Joel_W says, "What about sub-merge.?""
][mez][ says, "No Alan, truth.full:)"
Incubation2 says, "Helen - deena, we'll return to the topic with guests that are here tonight"
Chris_Funkhouser says, "Historical, architectural, cultural"
AlanSondheim says, "Perhaps you could create a website or list for those of us who would like to carry this on? I still think we need a framework for continuing/collaboration, information on organizations, etc. "
CynthiaBR says, "Possible - we need to confirm if this is possible - but we can also just do this anytime!"
AlanSondheim says, "Something more than just a list of URLs"
cleo says, "But that depends on your education really - a vis. artist here, who meets people DAILY who think art is either a nude, a landscape.. and very little beyond the figurative/objective. these are the MAJORITY of people I think, in the US anyway"
AlanSondheim says, "Phenomenological, ahistorical, chthonic"
Incubation2 says, "Helen - we will build a framework"
AlanSondheim says, "I do hope something is organized @ Incubation along the lines of list/webpage. "
AlanSondheim says, "I hate to keep harping on this, but I would love to see something concrete come out of this -"

English only frustrations

CynthiaBR says, "what about language, is any one frustrated that we are all English-speakers?"
Julianne says, "Yes Cynthia!"
][mez][ says, "Cynthia...we can...i was thinking we should keep this MOOroom open at all times during the conference @ b.yond...."
AlanSondheim says, "Descendent tropologies, desiccated"
Chris_Funkhouser says, "Moist blue berry vegetation."
Joel_W says, "An e-mail list for collaborative problems would help.""
AlanSondheim says, "Chris, I can't think beyond the food..."
Deena says, "Good point Cynthia ! and access--we were going to have several folks from India, but they would have had to come in at 2 am and their power is not reliable."
Incubation2 says, "People are leaving here - we'll return to the topic(s) "
Chris_Funkhouser says, "Aloha trAce"
AlanSondheim says, "Return now?"
AlanSondheim says, "Bonjour Trieste"
CynthiaBR says, "I just spent 2 weeks communicating with 20 words of Russian I learned on tapes for tourists and lots of pictures -- amazing experience"
Deena says, "The moo room is open, and we will keep a scribe on."
Deena says, "wow."

Wrapping up

Incubation2 says, "We are going to wrap up soon"
Joel_W says, "Has an hour gone by? I just started the coffee machine.""
Incubation2 says, "Not quite an hour we just want to get to the bar"
David_Clayton says, "Ok, see you tomorrow, guys"
Rilke_Guest says, "Got to go too--bye all--"
][mez][ wants the incubation2ers 2 sit & the bar & net.work, dis.cuss & use the thyme 2 shift & re.mold
Deena says, "Agrees with mez that that is a good assignment"
AlanSondheim says, "Gives us hope we still can chatter..."
Incubation2 says, "Laughing here - I interpreted the sound of his name"
Joel_W says, "Poems are that way too.""
Incubation2 says, "Helen - we'll go and do exactly what mez says"
Chris_Funkhouser says, "No photos but it's impossible to forget the nuke plant"
Incubation2 says, "we are being summoned by walkie-talkie to the bar"
Incubation2 says, "Helen - any last comments?"
Deena hands round parting glasses of genius
AlanSondheim says, ""Mother, Mother!""
][mez][ flics her wurdian good.byes 2wards the geobods
Incubation2 says, "Goodbye from incubation "
Deena says, "well, folks are packing up, but I wanted to thank ALL our guests --noah wardip fruin, Alan Sondhiem, mez, Cynthia rubin, Linda carolli, "
Joel_W says, "I guess I'm off to work.""
Deena claps.
cleo says, "Goodbye incubation, wish I was there!"
CynthiaBR says, "A bientot"
AlanSondheim says, "Bye all..."
Incubation2 says, "Helen - bye cleo wish you were here!"
][mez][ says, "I wood as well Alan..."
AlanSondheim says, "I remember Alan Sillitoe's The Loneliness of the Long Distance Runner..."
Deena says, "A big round of applause for all --we will keep these ideas and keep working on fostering collaborations and merging boundaries between art, lit, music and raising electronic creations"
AlanSondheim says, "It's kind of like that -"
Deena says, "Yeah, Alan, it really is..."
Incubation2 says, "EVD say hey me\"
AlanSondheim says, "I'm going to go myself. If you do have another chat scheduled during the conference, please email us!"
noahwf says, "Goodnight gracie"

Keeping the room open

][mez][ says, "we shood keep this room open, then the ppl who had itch-e trigga fingas could jump on here when.eva..."
Deena says, "We will work on it and mail everyone..."
][mez][ says, "Heya EVD!!"
AlanSondheim says, "Thank you!"
Chris_Funkhouser says, "Choas never died but my how it has lived..."
Incubation2 says, "EVD grins at mez"
linda_c says, "Gotta get ready for work - thanks for this chat. sorry to be quiet - I find these moos a bit overwhelming ... the ideas are fab - it would be good to see something happen - if you are keen Alan, then please be in touch with fAf. we might be able to help out. ciao."
Deena says, "Sure...please keep the incubation room open and I will not close the log..."
AlanSondheim says, "Ok, thank you!"
CynthiaBR says, "Bye all -- I will suggest that ISEA work on more collaboration efforts..."
Deena says, "Thank you guys so much for attending and contributing these great ideas!"
Deena hands round more energy and a bottle of genius for everyone
AlanSondheim says, "And thank you - I hope this has been useful..."
CynthiaBR says, "Thanks to you Deena for staying with this"
Julianne has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Julianne.
linda_c has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove linda_c.
Deena says, "Sure, this is a great deal of fun and I think worthwhile..."
AlanSondheim says, "Me too -"
Incubation2 says, "EVD to mez compartmentalized"
Takle_Guest arrives from Fifth Dimension
CynthiaBR says, "Yes - always stimulating - hard to leave!"
Deena says, "Hi takle, we are wrapping up, but have been talking about online collaboration with electronic creators--artists,musicians, and writers and more"
Deena says, "we will have this on a log in the next couple of weeks--when I get a second to edit it..."

Sending logs

AlanSondheim says, "Deena, please send us the URL of the log? And I wonder if it's not too long, if we can send it to our various email lists.. -"
Deena says, "Cynthia your trip sounds fantastic though..."
Deena says, "Alan, yes, I'll send at least the URL for the log. These things tend to be over 100k"
AlanSondheim says, "Gads!"
AlanSondheim says, "I'll send that on, in that case. -"
CynthiaBR says, "Yes - will tell you about it - or maybe I will do a collaborative work on Siberia!"
AlanSondheim says, "Do say hello to Talan for me by the way!"
][mez][ says, "Thx deena!"
Incubation2 says, "EVD to mez looking forward then to the future plie/e"
Deena says, "Yes, say hi to Talan and Margie and everyone at incubation!!!"
][mez][ says, "Absolutely EVD, and yup deena, would luv 2 meet"
AlanSondheim says, "Would love to see Margaret again -"
Deena says, "Great mez, I will write you with more info!"
][mez][ says, "Ok:)"
][mez][ says, "EVD, got a quik qs if yr still there??"
Deena says, "The dam guys want their computer back. I will get off now, and call this all um...professional development."
Deena says, "It was wonderful to see you all here, thanks again for the great and stimulating chat!"
CynthiaBR has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove CynthiaBR.
][mez][ says, "Heh. thx 4 hosting this deena:)"
AlanSondheim says, "Going off now, Bye - and thanks!"
Incubation2 says, "EVD will hoist glass to all in bar in 15 seconds"
AlanSondheim has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove AlanSondheim.
Deena bows and thanks mez and hoists glass and goes...
Deena has disconnected.
Incubation2 says, "Many people in a rapidly emptying amphitheater wave and cheer and rush to alcohol"
][mez][ says, "Ahh, ok. I'll mail u then EVD. "
Incubation2 says, "/quit"

Collaboration bibliography

Chris_Funkhouser says, "Someone really should put together a collaboration bibliography, as well as one for writing about collaboration. It's such a popular topic"
][mez][ says, "Yes Chris, I guess the trouble is d.fining collaboration....."
][mez][ says, "Much of wot I'm n.volved in is difficult 2 d.fine as collaboration rather than flux...."
cleo says, "Farewell all - to ever productive & collaborative futures!"
][mez][ says, "who's left here?"
Chris_Funkhouser says, "Yeah could be broadly defined somehow don't you think? like when more than one person is involved w/a piece"
Chris_Funkhouser says, "I'm here another minute..."
][mez][ says, "Sure chris, it could...the guidelines would have to be b r o a d ...."
][mez][ says, "4m my POV, the data creche is a mutha.lode collaborative space, s.pecially via email lists...."
][mez][ says, "Hey cleo, did u get my last email about cauldron?"
cleo says, "Yes thanks. I wrote back, but don't think I finished/sent it yet. been in the madness of a move and and ... I'll write soon -"
Chris_Funkhouser says, "Broad & broadband hopefully"
][mez][ says, "Yep n.deedy chris."
Chris_Funkhouser says, "well, chums, time's up. keep singing!"
][mez][ says, "Ok cleo, take care;)"
][mez][ says, "Later all:)"

Alan Sondheim

Alan Sondheim arrives.
Alan_Sondheim foolishly attempts to kiss himself.
Alan_Sondheim laughs.
Alan_Sondheim says, "I want to view the whole wide world. I want to be the whole wide world."
Alan_Sondheim laughs.
Alan_Sondheim says, "I, in my idleness, will become vast. I will see vastly. I will bear witness in my languor."
Alan_Sondheim says, ""You need definition. You need the clarity of sex, the desire of language, the fear of love when you are falling near the rim or lip of a cliff."
Alan_Sondheim laughs.
Alan_Sondheim says, "The cliff is sublime."
Alan_Sondheim laughs.
Alan_Sondheim says, "Kiss Nikuko"
Alan_Sondheim puckers his lips, perhaps expecting a kiss?
Alan_Sondheim foolishly attempts to kiss himself.
Alan_Sondheim laughs.
Alan_Sondheim says, "Kiss #4"
Alan_Sondheim laughs.
Alan_Sondheim cries.
Alan_Sondheim cries.
Alan_Sondheim cries.
Alan_Sondheim says, "On the lip or edge of the cliff, I am crying, with all this beauty."
Alan_Sondheim says, "@create $thing called Sublime"
Alan_Sondheim says, "@create $thing called Beauty"
Alan_Sondheim laughs.
Alan_Sondheim says, "I am on the edge of the world."
Alan_Sondheim says, "I am on the edge of the universe."
Alan_Sondheim says, "I am dying of love..."
Alan_Sondheim is dying, is dying of love ...
Alan_Sondheim says, "The world is dying of everywhere."
Alan_Sondheim says, "You are dying, of existence."
Alan_Sondheim says, "You are dying, of existence."
Alan_Sondheim says, "You are dying, of existence.""
Alan_Sondheim says, "@quit"
Alan_Sondheim has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Alan_Sondheim.
trAcELO arrives in a choral suite.

-- End log: Sunday, July 21, 2002 1:41:30 pm CDT

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