Start log: Sunday, September 15, 2002 2:01:55
Guest, Aaron, Deena, and Mark Bernstein arrive.
Deena says, "Hi Mark!"
Mark Bernstein says, "Hi Aaron!"
Deena serves everyone tea---
Deena serves around rolling logs of cake and punch
Deena says, "I'm going to check my mail to see if folks are
Nicki, Carolyng and Doug Lawson arrive. Everdeen saunters in.
Deena says, "Hi Doug, Carolyn, Nicki, Everdeen, all"
Everdeen smiles hello at everyone.
Deena says, "Is anyone else having trouble getting in?"
Nicki says, "Hi everyone"
Deena passes around more cold lemonade and hot cider as the
Doug Lawson says, "Yo, Deena!"
Carolyng says, "Hi Deena and everyone."
Deena yo yos back to Doug ;)
Helen arrives, like a train from Platform 9 and three-quarters
Deena says, "Thanks Everdeen, I haven't used telnet, and I will
keep that in mind..."
Deena says, "Hi Adrian..."
Adrian says, "Hi"
Deena Picks up the poor world and hangs it neatly on a closet
Helen says, "Hi all!"
Adrian says, "Hi mark"
Deena says, "Hi Helen! Good to see you here.."
Deena says, "Hi DJM!"
carolyng says, "Hey Helen. howzit shakin'?"
Deena says, "We are all getting settled, and introducing ourselves..."
Helen. smiles at carolyng.
says, "While we are all assembling, would you guys introduce
Doug Lawson grins
Deena says, "I have an intro for our guests, Mark, Adrian, and
Doug, up if you click blog list on the right hand side."
Mark Bernstein says, "Blog list?"
Mark Bernstein says, "Ahhh"
guest says, "I've been lurking at the edges of hypertext. I
have a copy of Patchwork Girl and some other Eastgate stuff."
Deena says, "Ahh, Adrian seems to be having trouble getting
Everdeen . o O ( or, if you're not using encore, type: look
blog list )
Adrian waltzes in, abandoning the world at the door.
Carolyng says, "'psychic brain dump'! I love it."
Deena says, "You can click on bloglist or type look blog list
for a short intro and some links for our distinguished guests."
Doug Lawson settles in the corner, next to the hooka.
Deena rushes over to ensure the hookah was filled up recently,
and grabs a tray of drinks for everyone else.
Adrian clears throat and whispers very loudly "I'm in a
Adrian continues to whisper "So can't see the pretty pictures."
Adrian whispers and complains that his text client is waaayyyy
Aaron also has laaaaaaaaaag.
Everdeen smiles and tosses a blue flower to Adrian. "In lieu
of my icon..."
guest says, "Mark, what does Tinderbox do?"
Adrian catches the flower, dodges the bee and smiles "Thanks."
carolyng wistfully dreams of a fast connection.
Deena is having a lag time too and is on a T1 in an empty office...will
ask the moo creators about it...
Everdeen says, "There have been occasional problems with
lag here at Lingua all week long."
Adrian says, "Oh, deena, if you've got badlag too then
we'll just have a easy time of it."
says, "Hi Mark, before folks get here, could you tell me why
you started a blog?"
Mark Bernstein says, "I started HYPERTEXT KITCHEN after CyberMountain,
because I thought a news source would help keep people connected.
HYPERTEXT NOW is several years older, but not technically a
Mark Bernstein says, "MarkBernstein.org
is my personal space and Tinderbox testing ground."
guest says, "Oh, I've looked at hypertext now and the kitchen
sometimes. Are you still keeping these up?"
Mark Bernstein says, "Of course."
says, "Mark, could you tell us a bit about tinderbox and how
it works for blogs? Why do you think blogs are important?"
Mark Bernstein says, "Deena -- I've already bloged my answer
guest says, "Where did you blog that, Mark I missed it..."
Mark Bernstein says, "Http://www.markBernstein.org/"
says, "Doug Lawson, shall we start with you? Doug is the Executive
Editor of The Blue Moon Review (http://www.thebluemoon.com)
which is accepting submissions for literary blogs. Doug founded
the Blue Moon Review, and has published since 1994. The Blue
Moon Review has been featured internationally as one of the
top online literary magazines, and has been named in Writer's
Digests' Top Fiction 50 and top online magazines lists three
times running. Doug's work has appeared in numerous publications
and received the Transatlantic Review. Some recommended links.
Everdeen says, "Cynthia had the techies working on it...was
it Thursday or Friday, Nicki?"
Adrian nods, "Yeah, I was here this week working and it
Deena says, "Doug, why did you start looking for a literary
blog? What will a blog do for the Blue Moon Review"
says, "Yeah, Adrian, I will just type twice as fast."
djm has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove djm.
Adrian settles down to listen to Doug
Nicki says, "I think it might have been Friday the techies were
Lawson is being climbed like a tree by his toddler!
Nicki . o O ( all the days are merging together though )
carolyng says, "Friday the 13th?"
Adrian laughs (toddler AND Friday the 13th!)
says, "Doug, so you are opening Blue Moon to blogs to satisfy
readers who might want to look into people's lives?"
guest says, "Doug, are you looking for literary blogs?
What would a literary blog be and how would you apply to do
one for Bluemoon."
Doug Lawson says, "If the writers are interesting, obviously.
One of our contributors writes fiction from China--I'm interested
in what his daily life as a writer is like. Also, if they're
doing a bit more with the form."
Doug Lawson says, "To Guests question earlier, I take submissions
of blogs at email@example.com."
Doug Lawson says, "So, it was several thoughts, really. One,
I was curious to see what would come in if we were open to blogs."
Doug Lawson says, "Second, I'm a voyeur at heart, though I suspect
that's true of many. "
Deena says, "Doug, have you gotten many submissions for this?"
Doug Lawson says, "Not a ton. Love to see more."
guest says, "I haven't seen a literary blog, what are they?"
Deena says, "Good question, guest, others, what are literary
blogs? What in fact, are blogs? "
Adrian cues mark bernstein to intro what a blog is...
Deena says, "So would blogs be just any webpage that is updated
Adrian says, "Http://www.markbernstein.org
are all blogs"
Bernstein says, "A weblog is a chronologically-organized web
page (or site) that's updated regularly."
Helen says, "...or do they have to be in the nlog format that
is becoming standard."
Deena says, "Good examples."
Helen says, "Blog format (fingers not working)."
Adrian says, "Well I'd probably want a bit more than that...
I don't think of newspaper homepages as blogs."
Adrian says, "Though I'd be happy to recognize that they
Adrian says, "And that like the problem of style versus
genre in film a blog is hard to nail down."
Deena hands Adrian a keg of nails to nail down a definition.
Adrian says, "Thanks deena, but I got nails, no hammer
Lawson says, "Mark, would you say there's a required element
of autobiography in a blog?"
Deena says, "So you are looking for a writer's journal? Like
the ones Steinbeck kept while writing?"
Adrian says, "So would a literary blog be a fictional blog,
a blog by a writer, either? "
Adrian says, "Or a blog about literature?"
Deena says, "Mark, Adrian, Doug, what are required elements
in a blog?"
Deena says, "In a literary blog?"
Mark Bernstein says, "There's no autobiography in 802.11b
news, which everyone thinks is a blog. Or in Gilmoor.
Or in Robot
Wisdom, for that matter."
carolyng says, "But, Helen, doesn't the medium change the content
in essential ways?"
Adrian has no idea about mark and Doug but Adrian's list would
include "Personal writing, mixed genres/tones, or if no
personal writing then the trace of the personal (which I think
robot wisdom had)."
Nicki wonders if she dare ask if everyone works to the same
definition of 'autobiography.'
says, "Senses we are getting into murky waters and is content
not to have a real definition (somewhat like staying away from
defining hypertext or new media."
Adrian says, "In response to mark, if not personal then
idiosyncratic and from that point of view personal. "
Doug Lawson agrees with Adrian's speculation.
Lawson says, "I will say that a blog mention of Buffy the Vampire
Slayer generally results in a rapid rejection. ;)"
Mark Bernstein says, "Ahh...........I've just been rejected
by Blue Moon! Happy Day!"
Doug Lawson suspects Mark could get away with it.
Adrian goes out on a limb and says "Blogs are one of the
first genres to have appeared that pick up the key qualities
of web literacy."
Mark Bernstein says, "The same weblog mentions buffy in the
next item, as it happens."
says, "It seems to be just the same as journalling, which is
a fad that seems to have passed but which was just the same:
different software though, but still chronologically added to."
Mark Bernstein says, "Fad? passed? "
Adrian says, "A fad!!??"
Adrian says, "Get outta here"
says, "Online journalling was just the same. I had a (fictional)
journal on LitWeb which was essentially the same as a blog -
except that blogs started out as a record of people's web surfing
- i.e. lists ..."
Deena says, "Good point, Mark--all--are blogs a passing fad?
What do blogs add to the web scene?"
Helen says, "...of people's URLs encountered, whereas journalling
came from autobiography (is that a fair distinction?) but they
both seem very similar now."
Deena says, "Ahh, I knew that would wake you up Adrian."
Doug Lawson says, "Strong fad elements, I think."
AaronSw has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove AaronSw.
Mark Bernstein says, "I love it when people dismiss centuries
of literature and hundreds of thousands of writers as a fad."
looks at AaronSw being dragged away. Deena sympathises with
Aaron as his alter ego is swept out...
Helen says, "It was online journalling that was huge, like the
site metajournals, which came and went, what I wanted to say
was that this kind of thing isn't new, it just has a new name:
and the 'Online Journal' name was transient - will the name
'Blog' last longer?"
Deena says, "Helen, could online journalling be the same as
blogs only under a new name?"
carolyng says, "The moment?"
Helen says, "Deena, that was what I was trying to say: except
that they started out differently - journals as autobiog, blog
as a log of sites visited. Both have merged into something bigger
acts of blogging
Everdeen looks further along the branch and waits breathlessly
for defining qualities of "Web literacy."
Deena says, "So Mark, do you see any difference between blogging
and journaling privately?"
Adrian says, "They are networked, they are bottom up, they
are about writing and sharing and narrowcast not broadcast,
they mix modes/genres/voices, they empower (iffy word) users
as producers/discourse creators not consumers."
Deena says, "Good question Everdeen, how do these blogs promote
web literacy--and what is web literacy?"
Mark Bernstein says, "Blogging is a social, public act.
scribbling on paper in your back room isn't, unless your mom
finds your diary."
Adrian nods in agreement with Mark about the social act of blogging
Doug Lawson says, "I agree with Mark -- journals aren't generally
Nicki says, "Do people interact with blogs - are they really
social in that way?"
says, "They emphasize the partial, the quotidian, the temporal...."
Adrian lands as the branch breaks
Everdeen passes a pillow to Adrian for more comfortable sitting
after the fall.
Everdeen nods "You're welcome" and hopes the question "Is
'Bottom up' necessary to definition?" doesn't sound out of place
Mark Bernstein wonders too.
Deena says, "So how does blogging as a social act, writing and
reading regular updates continue a long writing tradition?"
says, "Sorry about my typing - Lingua window is too big for
my screen and I can't see what I type, nor can I change the
size of the window."
Adrian relax Helen, it's a moo. new rools.
blogging part 1
Deena says, "Let me introduce our third guest and we can really
Deena says, "Adrian has taken this social act into visual blogs...Adrian
Miles lectures in hypertext and cinema at RMIT in Melbourne
Australia and is a new media researcher in the InterMedia lab
at the University of Bergen, Norway. He is a regular participant
in international conferences in the fields of hypertext and
new media, and is on the board of several journals and conferences.
He is academic chair of the forthcoming Digital Arts and Culture
conference to be held in Melbourne in May 2003. His current
research and creative interests concentrate on interactive video,
hypertext and video, and process based teaching in new media."
says, "Adrian, how do visual logs differ from regular blogs?"
Adrian ducks under that chunk of intro
Nicki says, "Or how often do people interact with blogs
is another way to phrase my question?"
Adrian says, "Hold on, interaction first."
Nicki says, "Interact as in respond to and begin a dialogue
with blog author (if they are an 'author')"
Adrian says, "Jill walker does a lot on this. blogs and
communities. Mark too."
guest says, "Nicki, I'd like to ask that too. I read blogs and
sometimes I comment on them. But is this an interaction?"
guest says, "How do you know who is reading the blog?"
Adrian says, "You check refer logs, you read other blogs"
Adrian says, "To guest: referrer logs"
Adrian says, "You see who links to you,and your logs show
who reads. But the referrers tell you who is linking to you."
Deena says, "What are refer logs?"
Adrian says, "And that gets a blog conversation circle
says, "Mark, does Tinderbox track who reads logs, or is it more
for organizing blogs?"
Mark Bernstein says, "It's exactly the same thing as any work
of letters; you write, you listen for response, you respond.
Stuff I publish on my personal weblog sometimes gets better
response than stuff I publish in ACM Proceedings. It definitely
gets more response than my incendiary talk at the ELO meeting.
And if scholarship isn't "Interacting", who cares about
Lawson says, "Logs, as Adrian mentions, would show accesses.
I'd look to the blogger, I expect, to include elements that
readers might pass along, as it struck her/his interest."
Deena says, "Ahh, just like counting hits on a website?"
says, "Doug, if you got a blog on Blue Moon, how would you track
Adrian says, "Typo. referrer. The info that your browser
always sends to a web server which the server collects and you
Doug Lawson says, "But the reader might. Email, clearly."
Guest says, "Well, is reading the same as interacting?"
Nicki says, "But that referrer log doesn't tell you what
the reader thinks about your blog."
Deena says, "Good point Nicki. How do you interact with readers--to
know what they are thinking about your blog?"
Deena says "Hi, A, we are talking about how blogs are an
interactive web element...people link to blogs and track the
says, "Interact with readers? well depends if that's an
issue. Some blogs just write and people read but they might
not emphasize people writing 'back' as it were."
Deena says, "Yes, Nicki, how do blogs with comments invite this
interaction? Do the bloggers edit the comments, or can any comment
Adrian says, "And to start a new channel here. Visual blogs.
My vlog is a video blog. quicktime 5.x only, broadband pretty
much, wondering if you used video to blog what would it be."
Adrian says, "So the video is *always* interactive and
by that I mean inside the video and not some click that 'plays'
Nicki says, "Why post a blog if you don't want to be social
- social for me always includes elements of interaction/dialogue
Deena says, "So how do you do the video log? Do you take video
pictures wherever you go?"
arrives. Deena says, "Hi Margaret, we are talking about what
video blogs are and how we interact with blogs."
says, "Shoot everywhere? bah, that's Ted nelson's gig :-)
I just shoot stuff every now and then, they take quite a bit
of work to author and I keep experimenting..."
Doug Lawson is happy to note his toddler just brought him a
pair of eyeballs.
Deena gives Doug a bunch of virtual eyes for his toddler to
Adrian assumes the eyeballs are clean and weren't found on the
floor (what do they teach youngsters these days).
Mark Bernstein says, "Not the toddler's sister's eyeballs, I
hope, though that would be interacting."
Doug Lawson uploads eyes to toddler 1.0.
Deena wonders where the eyeballs came from in the first place
Doug Lawson says, "Stuffed eyeballs, fortunately."
Helen wonders if they squirt water like the eyeballs in her
Doug Lawson says, "Sort of a kafka-esque Mr. potatohead thing."
Adrian notes not to accept invitation to dinner at Doug's.
Adrian notes not to accept bath at Helen's.
carolyng is getting glassy-eyed at all this talk of orbs.
Helen and which glow in the dark too!
Everdeen idly wonders about the merits of rice versus cornbread
Deena Thinks about blogs catching eyeballs and wonders if that
is more than just figurative.
Adrian says, "Jill Walker's blog has a note facility that
anyone can use. Quite a few blogs have this."
Adrian turns to ask Jill and she says "I can delete stuff
that is dumb or offensive or ban an ip number..."
Deena says, "Adrian, please ask Jill why she put in the ability
to take notes--how does she see her blog functioning socially?"
Adrian says, "Personally my blog is much more 'messy'.
It's a thinking space. But because it is public I have to write
a bit more articulately than on that post-it note by my pc.
Adrian says, "Which is why I use them a lot with students.
They have to write better than a personal book journal and this
becomes process based/focussed writing which is invaluable for
carolyng says, "Jill's here?"
Adrian says, "I'm with Jill in Bergen so she's in the real
room that I'm in."
Deena says Hi to Jill who is looking over Adrian's shoulder...
Mark Bernstein says, "Hi Jill" carolyng says, "Hey there,
Adrian mentions that Jill is watching TV but says hi
says, "Mark, how do you interact with readers on your weblog?
Do you take comments? How does the blogging community interact?"
Mark Bernstein says, "To answer an early question, TINDERBOX
is a tool for making notes. Lots of people use it for weblogs.
. I wrote it."
Deena says, "Does Jill edit the notes?"
Helen says, "Are these more than developments of guestbooks?"
Mark Bernstein says, "Helen: of course they are more"
Helen says, "How more?"
Mark Bernstein says, "Tinderbox won't write for you. No. Sorry.
Makes it easy, not automatix."
says, "Mark, does tinderbox automatically create blogs?"
Helen says, "Will tinderbox ever appear for PC ?"
Mark Bernstein says, "Helen: yes, underway for the PC. Mid-2003
carolyng says, "I notice that the appearance of your blog,
mark, is quite different from, say, Jill's. Is tinderbox (thinkerbox?)
says "I mean is the notes function more than a better guestbook,
I know the blogs are more!"
Mark Bernstein says, "Carolyng: yes, everything is customizable.
My weblog, Adrian's, bills, are all Tinderbox."
Adrian says, "Re tinderbox: it's the best knowledge management
and context engine for the individual that I've seen."
Mark Bernstein says, "Jill has a compendium of research web
logs that will appear soon in the weblog kitchen http://www.weblogKitchen.com"
Adrian says, "And it is much more than a blog engine, though
it does that too."
says, "Doug, how would you see interaction in a literary blog?
Would you count updated stories as a blog--like the
Company Therapist or something?"
Doug Lawson says, "Updated stories might work. I've been hoping
to see more fictional blogs, the use of the medium as a storytelling
tool. A deep look at a person who isn't real--fictional interactions'd
be a potentially good part of that."
wonders about additions and interlineations and marginalia and
dates and revisions and highlighting/obscuring same.
Deena says, "Everdeen, what do you wonder about these marginalia?"
Everdeen says, "Marginalia and later thoughts ....interspersed,
say....are these acceptable or banned?"
arrives from Courtyard
Deena says, "Hi Timm, we are talking about using Tinderbox as
a weblog tool and what interaction does for webs."
blogs and hoaxes
Deena says, "Are people using weblogs as a form of literature
as a story telling device?"
Mark Bernstein says, "Deena: I think I tell stories at MarkBernstein.org,
and in the Development Peekhole at http://www.eastgate.com/Development"
Mark Bernstein says, "Anyone remember The Spot? A pioneering
fictional weblog community, circa 1995."
Deena says, "Yes, it is interesting that blogs can always be
carolyng says, "Might blogs replace listservs if enough
people start keeping their own?"
Deena says, "Doug, are there any current examples of fictional
Adrian says, "Margaret: available as in domestic desktop.
90% of it uses quicktime pro (30 bucks) and a recent Macintosh.
Domestic dv camera. The only tricky stuff is livestage pro,
about the same cost as photoshop. That's it."
Deena says, "Mark, I vaguely remember this, is it still going?"
Mark Bernstein says, "Deena: no, the spot ended three or four
Bernstein says, "Kaycee Nicole anybody?"
Adrian thanks mark for the kaycee mention
Editor's note: an elaborate blog about
a girl dying of leukemia, later found to be fictional. See the
Adrian says, "Except kaycee was more a fraud or something
rather than a literary blog per se..."
Deena is going to have to look up kaycee nicole...
Mark Bernstein says, "The Spot was pure fiction. So was Kaycee.
Jill blogged a Norwegian weblog fiction."
Adrian says, "And the unknown could have been a blog, I
Lawson says, "Probably my favorite example of a fictional blog
is more of a joke: see http://lyingmofo.ohskylab.com.
Virgina Woolf and Hemmingway entries."
carolyng says, "Just checked out lying mofo... it's outrageous!"
Lawson says, "Hemingway's entry: Went to bullfights. Matador
a pansy; jumped in with a beachtowel and cocktail umbrella to
show Ramon how it was done."
Adrian laughs at Hemingway
says, "What is the difference between a fictional blog and a
Doug Lawson says, "Helen--there might not be much. What's the
difference between a story and a lie?"
Lawson says "Some poets refuse to write a poem that's not
in their voice--another truth issue. I'm a fiction writer at
heart--I say have at it. Lie to me, just make it good."
Guest says, "People have always claimed that fiction lies
But do blogs that are fiction masquerade as 'True people?' "
Margaret says, "Guess most people's printed memoirs lie to a
Guest says, "How do you know it if people are or aren't telling
the truth, especially if blogs are supposed to be autobiographical."
Mark Bernstein says, "Research?"
Lawson says, "So, I look for the illusion of autobio. I'd say
it could be used as a tool into a character as much as a writer;
and, would flip that around to argue a writer of a blog is creating
a public persona to depict, anyway."
says, "I'm really interested in blogs' use as learning journals."
Helen says, "Tell us more about the students' journals,
Adrian squeezes the programmatic statement in edgeways "I
think blogs are fundamental in education which thinks it has
anything to do with digital multiliteracy."
Deena says, "Adrian, why are blogs fundamental?"
Adrian squeezes another one in "And the vog is not so much
a blog as an effort to get film people to learn what hypertext
(and blogs) already know about multilinearity."
Deena says, "Hi Tim, we are looking at the difference between
an actual weblog and a fictional one, or one that lies..."
Timm-K says, "I'm lurking as part of a class project."
muses about the impact of increased time-and-energy costs to
individual going to various blogs versus receiving from a list.
Deena says, "Everdeen, all, do you use blogs to get news?"
Mark Bernstein says, "Everdeen: read the *extensive* literature
on weblog syndication, especially RSS."
Adrian says, "Blogs are big news in journalism."
Doug Lawson says, "I did learn Farscape was cancelled through
an ex-girlfriends blog, actually."
Deena says, "Yes, could we capitalize on that to spread the
word about electronic art and lit?"
Adrian says, "Lists won't die. We keep old media that work
(newspapers for instance)."
Deena laments Farscape
Mark Bernstein says, "Ahhhhhhhhh......... the truth emerges.
Buffy bad, Farscape good!"
Adrian says, "Telegraph died because of phone, and telegram
because of fax. same deal, better."
Deena shakes her head, she'd lament buffy, too...
Everdeen nods re syndication
Doug Lawson notes he didn't actually claim not to watch Buffy...
Doug Lawson Of course, if Farscape isn't going to be canceled,
I'll be a little pissed.
says, "Hypertext Kitchen isn't chronologically based though
- it isn't a weblog itself is it?"
says, "Mark, going back to an earlier point about hypertext
NOW and kitchen do many of your readers rely on your site for
Mark Bernstein says, " 'Rely on my site for news?'I certainly
hope they don't RELY on it. The Times is reliable."
Aaron says, "In tech news, at least, weblogs are more reliable
than the Times."
Adrian says, "Hypertext kitchen is what I'd call a protoblog
:-) started before there were blogs qua blogs."
Mark Bernstein says, "But lots of people read it, and often
they seem to be people I very much want to reach. "
says, "I notice a vog uses available technology. How do you
define available technology?"
Margaret says, "You have to use livestage not something cheap
Adrian says, "Margaret: the way they work is there are
sprites in the video and livestage is hands down winner for
says, "All, what do blogs add that other technology does not?"
Mark Bernstein says, "Blogs are a genre, not a technology."
says, "Ok. What do blogs as a genre gain us that we don't
get elsewhere? What are the qualities that set blogs apart?"
says, "Deena, for the reasons I mentioned earlier. They're
awesome for process based writing and teaching. Students love
the fact that it is online, public, they can control design
(try doing that in webct), that they don't have to write 1500
words, that they can use it to think in words about their ideas
without it being the monument-essay-which-will-determine-my-absolute-grade."
Doug Lawson says, "Immediacy. Illusion of intimacy."
Deena says, "Adrian, how do you get film people to learn about
Adrian says, "Last semester I had 4 honours students use
blogs, wrote thousands of words, learnt an awful lot about how
to write *with* theory, not at it."
Deena says, "So you assign students to create blogs in
Adrian says, "Film people and multilinearity. Talk slowly,
use short words, expect to spend 5 years doing it."
Adrian says, "Blogs in courses? absolutely."
Deena says, "So the blogs are a teaching tool...can blogs themselves
help show multilinearity."
says, "All how can blogs help people learn about multilinear
carolyng says, "They are a study tool for the study too. It
helps them to get their ideas to coalesce."
Adrian says, "Not sure about teaching tool. I'd like a
mark style comment there about being a genre. Is writing a teaching
a tool? if yes then blogs are a teaching tool."
for managing content
Deena says, "Mark, you talked a bit about Tinderboxes note taking...how
does tinderbox help organize thoughts?"
Doug Lawson suspects he needs that help.
Mark Bernstein says, "Multilinearity in weblog clusters:
read the last year of Bernstein, Walker, Mikes, Klastrup, Mortensen.
Note the patterns of linkage. "
Adrian uses tinderbox a lot and would like to say "That
tinderbox provides lots of attributes for each entry and you
can write agents that collect info on any/all attributes and
content. You discover/uncover context and knowledge from your
information, it is like a thing that lets info move into knowledge."
Mark Bernstein says, "Tinderbox doesn't organize your thoughts:
nothing can do that if you can't. But Tinderbox takes advantage
of spatial hypertext, visualization, and agents to be a PERSONAL
CONTENT MANAGEMENT ASSISTANT."
Deena says, "Mark, so Tinderbox is more than just a blogging
agent, it lets you move things around spatially to organize
Mark Bernstein says, "Yes, Deena. Read the web page. Look at
the screen shots. "
says, "Can students who nothing about the web learn to use blogs
easily? Or is it the people who would once have made their own
webpages and are HTML-savvy?"
Guest says, "What do students learn about writing when they
carolyng says, "I think they are less intimidating in some
ways than starting with web design and/or hypertext."
Guest says, "Adrian, how do you link with blogs?"
Adrian says, "To link? Depends on the tool. write the html,
or use the bookmark feature of blogger and annotate a site with
its link automatically inserted as you surf. Hard to explain
until you've seen it."
Doug Lawson says, "Helen--I think current tools allow people
to get around having to learn the geek stuff. Try blogger.com--quick
and easy setup."
says, "Blogs: use blogger, it's a no brainer and you can
have beginners using it in a class."
Helen wonders can you set up multiple blogs to a server without
the bloggers seeing the FTP details?
carolyng no brainer blob blogs for beginners bloggers?
Mark Bernstein says, "HTML-savvy, for an educated person, is
a matter of a few minutes of reading. It makes no sense to exaggerate
it. And FTP details are much easier than checking books out
of the library."
says, "What are the advantages of updating?"
Helen says, "Adrian can you send URLs for some student blogs?"
Deena says, "Do readers come back to blogs regularly -- has
anyone tracked readers of blogs?"
says, "And multilinearity: there is stuff in a blog, and
then what happens between blogs, and what happens in a single
blog in relation to what it links to."
Adrian says, "From my blog the bottom 4 names are students."
says, "That's on the uttland list"
says, "But they've kept on blogging 3 months after semester
so who knows what goes on there now."
Aaron searches through his wallet for his FTP card.
Adrian says, "And one student. NO tech experience at all.
Thought so much of blogging that he's trying to make it compulsory
for every honours student."
Bernstein says, "Educational Weblogs: http://www.ravenrock.com/blog/blog.html
Helen thanks Adrian for the links to students.
linking to blogs
Bernstein says, "Between blogs?"
Guest says, "Do people link to each other's blogs? "
Adrian says, "Yes, people link to each others blogs all
*t he time"
Adrian says, "That was meant to be 'all the time.' "
Mark Bernstein says, "Guest: constantly. One of the recent
weblog books regards linking to weblogs as a defining property.
I think she's wrong."
Adrian says, "One 'genre' would have a list of blogs you
read regularly as hard links, but you also link to other's blogs
in your entries."
Lawson wonders if his toddler is climbing Adrian
says, "Jill walker tends to do a rather good job of collecting
these. As does mark. They're my two main sources (it's not what
you know but knowing where to find that is important)."
Adrian says, "Deena. I need to know what the focus on multilinearity
or nonlinearity is about?"
Deena says, "Adrian, still trying to pick up on what you said
earlier about teaching film folks about nonlinearity..."
Adrian says, "Oh, that's vog stuff. video blogs."
says, "Ahhh, have you had your students doing vogs?"
Adrian says, "I am taking hypertext (what hypertext theory
knows) and applying it to time based media - video. About to
have them doing vogs."
Adrian says, "And I'll teach them 'backwards.' "
Helen says, "Are there any particularly good literary blogs
you can recommend beyond the obvious (i.e. yours and the ones
Mark Bernstein says, "A ROMANTIC VIEW OF WEBLOGS: WeblogHandbook.html"
says, "Adrian, did your students link? Did this help explain
Mark Bernstein says, "WeblogHandbook.html"
says, "Are literary blogs going to appear regularly in Blue
Moon or will there be a special feature?"
Doug Lawson says, "OK, this might be an isolated perspective--but
I see students grasping nonlinearilty easily. It's life, it's
what we all live in."
Helen thanks Mark for the link (shield have thought to look
Adrian says, "I use blogs to teach process writing, i.e.
to let them learn their theoretical voices and how to write
with theory. I use storyspace to teach about multilinearity."
Doug Lawson says, "Helen--probably regularly, assuming I see
things that interest me."
Doug Lawson says, "We tend to run the magazine on a whim."
says, "Doug - re students grasping nonlinearity easily - it's
an age thing, if your students are young yes they will, but
my students are all ages."
Doug Lawson agrees that non-linearity is an age or generational
hands over some bluemoon whims.
Doug Lawson kindly salutes Deena with a plug to her work in
Blue Moon: http://www.thebluemoon.com/coverley/indexfls.htm
Deena blushes in electrons.
says, "Do you track readers to determine on your blog?"
Adrian says, "Speaking personally I 'track' readers for
vanity (just to see how many people come through) but more specifically
the referrer logs let me know who is linking which helps build
Mark Bernstein says, "I watch daypop and my email to see what
people write about my writing. "
says, "How do we find those tools - are they in your tips article
Mark Bernstein says, "Http://www.weblogkitchen.com/wiki.cgi?WeblogTools"
Deena says, "All, what advice would you give to literary writers
starting blogs? When would you suggest people start a blog?"
is being climbed by her cat
Deena hands round virtual climbers for the rest of us who aren't
being beset by toddler's, cats or reader's eyes...
Adrian says, "So you can visit page y and see why you've
Adrian says, "See, like I said, mark does a great job collecting
Adrian says, "Though it's a wiki, which is probably a whole
Mark Bernstein says, "Nobody's mentioned Radio
Userland, or amphetadesk.
Lawson says, "Mark's guidelines are a great foundation for something
thinking of writing a blog. Be interesting. Be active. Be original."
Adrian thinks one out of 3 for his blog isn't bad
Deena says, "Adrian, I missed that. 1 out of 3 what?"
Adrian says, "1 and out of 3 for active, original, interesting..."
Doug Lawson says, "Marks guidelines are at http://www.alistapart.com/stories/writeliving/,
Deena says, "Thanks Doug, those are good pointers for all blog
Adrian says, "There are a lot of little tools out there
that help with blogging..."
Doug Lawson says, "For all writers of any form, probably."
Adrian says, "Blogdex, daypop, pagelogging, blogger, Tinderbox."
Deena says, "So the referrer log also keeps track of links to
says, "Thanks everyone found this very interesting, Bye now."
Adrian says, "No the referrer tells you that visitor x
clicked a link to you on page y and has the url for page y.
that means page y has a link to you."
Deena says, "Hmmm...thought it was all three, but OK"
Margaret has disconnected.
Deena glances at her watch---yep we should be wrapping up---there
is probably waaaay to much to cover in an hour, even a frenetic
hour here to introduce blogs and explore their use in literature...thanks
for all your patience though!
says, "Are there other tools to mention?"
Helen says, "The log will have all these links in full, then
we can all explore"
Deena says, "Yep, we will have the archive up on both trAce
sites, and a place to continue commentary..."
Mark Bernstein says, "Moveable
Adrian says, "And movabletype."
carolyng says, "Where can we access the log of this chat
Helen says, "They could be appended to the log, yes."
Deena says, "Yes, Guest, all, send them to firstname.lastname@example.org
and I will put them in the archive."
Deena says, "Any last thoughts on blogging?"
Helen says, "I'm still not sure whether my online journal is
a blog - what's the difference."
Mark Bernstein says, "LAST THOUGHT: writers write."
says, "Could people send in the URLs of blogs and literary blogs
that they liked?"
Adrian says, "Last thought: something obscure about visual
blogs and futures."
says, "Mark, so writers write--whether in a blog or in new media
or in linear books ;)"
Doug Lawson says, "Don't sweat the form too much. Write good
stuff. Publish it somewhere. Wash, rinse, repeat."
Adrian says, "Another last last thought: and video and
video can be written just like blogs so imagine that future
for those of us with little video cameras and and and ..."
Deena says, "Adrian, could you clarify the obscure bit about
visual blogs and futures---do you want to get into the future
of visual blogs..."
Deena hands round future prototypes of cameras for all to wear
on their lapels
says, "Say ??"?/" carolyng says, "Rats, my cat."
carolyng says, "She had to have her say apparently."
Deena hands around a special camera for Carolyn's cat to get
rats and Doug's toddler to find more eyes...
carolyng says, "She has many others far less polite."
Doug Lawson watches toddler run off with Deena's camera, his
wineglass, a paper clip, and the Mac's mouse.
Adrian though remains worried about eyeballs
says, "Thanks, I will look for the log and blogs to see
what is happening."
says, "Only that all that you do in a blog, in terms of
the personal, linking, mulitlinearity. All that can be done
easily in video now. Though most don't know it. And I'm interested
in that. Imagine a class of kids who knew how to write video
as if it were just natively a multilinear medium, like we use
blogs and hypertext. It's here already, we just got to work
out what or where or why it works and like blogs, that's the
future of vid. On the net. Not the reinvention of TV."
carolyng says, "This has been really exciting Deena and everyone.
Thanks for the chat. "
hands round parting glasses of guiness/genius so we can all
continue to write
Doug Lawson says, "Thanks, Deena! I appreciate the invite."
Deena wants to learn how to write video...
Adrian stretches, yawns, realises it's 11pm here and very nearly
Nicki smiles, "Thanks for the interaction."
Adrian says, "Cheers deena, enjoyed it, thanks Doug and
mark, pleasure to be guests with you both."
Deena says, "A special round of thanks to our guests, Mark,
Adrian, and Doug, who are exploring many different facets of
Everdeen waves thanks to all
Doug Lawson says, "Likewise, Adrian, Mark."
Helen says, "All very interesting and stimulating, thanks Doug,
carolyng says, "Blog on!"
Deena says, "Thank you all for coming and sharing your ideas--this
won;'t be the last of it, I am sure."
Adrian laughs "Of course not."
carolyng says, "Rats falls on her head."
Doug Lawson continues to enjoy the hooka.
Adrian says, "See you all. If anyone wants to get in touch,
finger my name here to get email and details."
Doug Lawson wishes all well, and hopes they read Blue
Adrian says, "Of course! Cheers Doug."
Doug Lawson vanishes in a greatful blue-green puff of smoke.
Mark Bernstein wonders whether this is the best format anymore.
Adrian wonders if Mark means MOOs for chatting or something
Helen hopes anyone with alternative suggestions will say so.
says, "Helen, where can we find your journal?"
Bernstein says, "Weblogs, of course."
Mark Bernstein says, "Or phone calls. Or circular letters."
says, "We will be changing the chat format as of next month,
to include articles, bulletin boards, and more..."
Deena says, "Please watch the trace site for more details on
Deena says, "Blogs would be a good addition to the format---we
may have to work that in someho.."
says, "And while we mention it, comments on the new trace site,
good and bad so long as constructive, are very welcome."
Deena says, "Phone calls would be good. Circular letters...hmmm...."
Doug Lawson has disconnected.
says, "We'll figure something out."
Mark Bernstein says, "The signal to noise ratio is tough.
And the audience size isn't really much to write home about?"
Deena says, "Yeah, the anonymity here is great sometimes, but
doesn't help at others..."
carolyng says, "What's in store, Deena?"
Deena says, "Thanks for being patient as we slowly transition..."
Deena says, "Well, we are working on doing a chat every other
month, so that the signal to noise ratio goes up a lot---people
would have an article, then a bulletin board to comment, and
then a chat to talk about the subject. That way we can interact
with a lot of different people's styles."
Helen says, "Are our guests willing to countenance questions,
perhaps as a follow up when people have digested the chat?"
Adrian says, "About signal to noise, I've been to conferences
in moos that worked pretty well, but take quite a bit of organising."
Adrian says, "Questions? Sure."
Deena says, "Yeah, it gets hard to follow all the threads..."
Deena says, "And the lag time doesn't help!"
Helen says, "Yes the log will need some editing to adjust for
Adrian says, "Oh, Helen! duh. Hi! didn't realise it was
Helen wonders how many other Helens
Helen thinks she is the only Helen in Lingua
Adrian says, "Oh, didn't realise it was Helen Whitehead.
Is all :-) still remember that belt you bought in where was
it, San Antonio?"
Mark Bernstein says, "Helen acumen (Ashman (ht03 chair)."
Mark Bernstein says, "Helen Jamieson."
Helen knows Helen Ashman - also in Nottingham!
Mark Bernstein says, "Helen Schwartz (C&W wheel)."
Helen but cannot have same Lingua name is what I meant
Adrian laughs, you using google or what mark? All those Helen's
Deena says, "Mark has a huge address book, I think ;)."
Deena says, "But it is a way to get folks together outside of
Mark Bernstein says, "For that matter, is carolyng the famous
author of quibbling? or another Carolyn G entirely?"
carolyng says, "Bye all. Very interesting. Thanks."
Deena says, "Bye Carolyn!"
carolyng says, "Oops, Carolyn Guertin"
Deena says, "Didn't recognize you either! Hi Carolyn!"
Mark Bernstein says, "Ahhhhh......even further north. Hiya famous
carolyng says, "Send American $$$"
Helen says, "Luckily there is only one Deena!"
Adrian says, "But is the issue just that moos require quite
a different sort of whatever? and most people, lets face it,
aren't MOO literate..."
Helen says, "Even chatroom types may not cope with MOO."
Deena says, "Yes, it is an odd environment."
Mark Bernstein says, "Adrian: it's worse than that."
Adrian says, "Worse than what? I sort of treat MOO as the
best of available."
carolyng says, "Such confusion everywhere..."
Everdeen [to Adrian]: a very good point re: being MOO literate
Mark Bernstein says, "Trying to explore an issue that is
more than five words long seems impossible."
says, "I had several people try to get in and couldn't-- it
is still an access issue."
Deena says, "Online and in-time synchronous conversation is
difficult unless you can type really fast."
Adrian nods, yes, but then it probably should have a statement,
or a series of slides delivered via html, and one speaker replying
Helen says, "Perhaps where we have guests, as today, we should
have the type of MOO room where only Deena and I (hosts) and
guests can speak to whole room, with questioners being enabled."
Adrian says, "3 guests chatting over each other contributes
to the noise. "
says, "Probably too many guests, but I wanted different perspectives.
Adrian says, "Oh, I quite enjoy the flurry of MOO."
Helen says, "Scripting in advance and so on. I think we e will
have more of that in future. The chats will be bimonthly and
much more organised I hope. I agree that this format has become
Deena says, "Yes, and we will have a chance for each to put
out a position statement and think through it more---as we cover
two months for a topic."
Mark Bernstein says, "Helen: why so hostile to weblogs?"
Helen says, "Am not hostile - don't know why came across that
way! Just wondered how it was different from "Online journal",
as blog as a term seems to have replaced that."
Deena says, "I don't see it as hostile."
Mark Bernstein says, "Is your new product -=- and your literary
output -- a fad? Answer in six words or less. I know you didn't
mean it that way, but ... I very nearly left."
Helen says, "I don't think I can explain Mark without seeming
hostile, which I truly don't mean to be. Blogs fascinate me,
especially the potential for use with students."
Helen says, "I never said blogs were a fad, I asked if online
journalling - metajournalling - which was the "Next big
thing" a while and was a fad - or if blogs were a development
Deena says, "I was trying to get at why blogs are useful and
draw out their potential. I think blogs definitely have a place--am
starting one for our Science and Technology program at Bureau
here and wish we were on a MAC."
Helen says, "I actually described blogs on national BBC Radio
4 on Friday night - probably one of the first time Radio 4 has
Adrian says, "Do you know of other systems at all Mark?
I'm unfamiliar with most of the synchronous stuff out there
that is group based."
Helen says, "Deena does brilliantly though, keeping everything
Everdeen [to Helen]: a lot of it does come down to the individual
accumulating experience in a MOO-environment, which is difficult
for guests to have accomplished on a first time visit.
Adrian agrees with everdeen
says, "I like the flurry, but it does get a bit intimidating
for people who are new to hypertext/the topic. We have to have
a gentle way of introducing while still keeping the dialogue
Mark Bernstein says, "Deena deserves accolades, but its a very
hard job, and I hate to see good talent spent on something that
seems too hard."
Deena says, "Yeah, guests have to clear the hurdle of MOOing
as well as of the topic"
Deena says, "Thanks you guys, I think this used to be a good
environment(Our only real means to communicate online and intime,
but it would be good to come up with something better."
Helen says, "WE are addressing the issue of chats right this
moment. This is the absolute last of the old style! We will
have more and better starting October."
Adrian says, "Bit like visiting a blog first time, I guess.
There is a literacy here, which like all other things some enjoy/suit
some don't, but even then, it is a skill that needs to be learnt."
Everdeen says, "There was a suggestion once to hold a 'Warm-up'or
introductory hour in conjunction with the chat, just before
it. What happened to that idea?"
Deena says, "WE can transition with this one with an add on
from the blogging and a list form the blogs."
Adrian says, "That's good October was always my favourite
time of year."
Deena says, "Sorry Mark, wanted to wake you up there, but didn't
mean it to come across as hostile---that is the problem with
text. No inflection..."
Deena says, "Yeah, Everdeen, I get on early to help new MOOers,
but don't advertise that too well."
Deena says, "Should do that..."
Everdeen [to Deena]: you can't do everything.
Deena says, "You are so right!"
Everdeen smiles and pins the Medal of Valourous Endeavour on
Deena admires the pin. Thanks Everdeen--
says, "Everdeen, how would you want the chats to continue? What
do you want to see?"
Adrian says, "Well I'm interested to see what the alternative
to moo might be. I think there are ways of using the environment
if you want or need more 'conference' like stuff, but they also
require your participants to know what to do, just like going
into a conference requires people to know the conventions, etc."
Deena says, "Yeah, and that requires homework, which many
folks don't do ..I need to do a lot more prepwork, too---can't
ever do enough!"
Adrian says, "Stuart Moulthrop did a great MOO presentation
a couple of years ago. Slides in html, delivered a talk, fielded
Adrian says, "Audience of 50 I think."
Deena says, "Yeah, that was at CyberMountain, he did a great
cyberkeynote--but that was a major organizational hassle, too...
Dene did a great MOO conference a couple of months ago... all
the speakers were fantastic and she did a good job of marshaling
and keeping signal to noise down."
Everdeen [to Deena]: I think there probably *does* need to be
a choice between an interview-type format (which may or may
not be attended -- I think many opt for reading the log instead
perhaps) OR having a chat, where there is conversation between
audience and a Guest.
Mark Bernstein says, "They also require a knowledgeable audience;
you can't answer intelligently about obscure standards on the
one hand and 'What is html?' on the other. Which we had to do
Helen says, "Just look at the logs from Deena and my chats.
Many have been absolutely excellent."
Adrian says, "But realistically, there is never a lot of
depth, when you read the logs it always seems thin. But I've
wondered what my tutes with students would sound like if I recorded
them and played them back"
says, "Slides in HTML are no good if you are on a text client..."
Helen says, "A convention such as - first half hour is interview
- second half hour is chat might work well."
Deena says, "The archives do a lot I think to show where we
have been and what we have been thinking. It is more informal
Everdeen says, "Perhaps, if there is a 'Message' to get
across, then an article available before the chat is the way
Helen says, "That is one of thing we intend for the future....
Deena says, "Yeah, and not have as many guests to interview,
and have interview material prepared beforehand---I think we
will be doing articles before hand with the guests, so people
can take off from the MOO and read those if they haven't already."
Everdeen says, "Also if one does wish to restrict to a
'knowledgeable audience' -- it is possible to set up rooms here
with a restricted entry."
Deena says, "The MOO audiences are small ---mostly between 10
and 20 folks... but any more gets to be a real zoo."
Helen says, "Plus a focused discussion on forums/bulletin boards
Everdeen says, "All one needs to do is adopt and modify
one of the classroom and put attendees on the class roster."
Deena says, "Right, Everdeen, the MOO would be to just discuss
Deena says, "We would have to rethink publicity--to talk about
the article and then announce the MOO with just the article
so people don't come in 'Off the streets.' "
says, "An opportunity to ask questions that reading the article
Everdeen says, "But I am in favour of an open meeting rather
than a closed chat for a select audience."
Helen says, "People who hadn't read article to be discouraged
from speaking but not banned."
Deena says, "Right Helen, and talk about it."
Deena says, "We would still have to update folks who had not
read the article, but we could point them to the article..."
Everdeen [to Helen]: but sometimes those who are not as knowledgeable
are the ones who ask questions that open up the discussion,
that create new connections.
Helen says, "It won't be a long article - it's on the web after
Everdeen sees the conflict, but values the openness.
says, "Anyway, if Mark and Adrian are still on, thanks for your
patience as guests, and we will get back to you as we work these
things out. I think this chat did help, and was useful--I really
appreciate your time and effort!"
Adrian says, "Perhaps just have it set up as x responding
to questions about their article. And if a question is not too
bright simply ask if they've read it and if not then leave it?
But it's hard."
Deena says, "Yeah, people could read it in ten to fifteen minutes
and rejoin our discussion."
Helen says, "What if all questions were directed through the
interviewer? Just so that they could be asked in sequence -
that's what big TV companies and so on do."
Adrian is going to bed
Deena says, "Everdeen, I think you are right, we need to have
Helen says, "Open it out in the later part of the chat."
Deena says, "Thanks Adrian!"
Adrian says, "Cheers all, see some of you in Melbourne
in may 2003 I hope!"
Mark Bernstein says, "Lad to help, whatever help that was."
Everdeen says, "Of course there is also the command here
Everdeen says, "So if someone is distracted by an individual."
Deena says, "Helen, could we encourage openness by having people
direct questions to a moderator."
Adrian says, "A pleasure and thanks for the invite."
Deena says, "Yeah, I have used that sparingly."
Adrian has disconnected.
Bernstein says, "One more thing: Helen -- you mentioned
nlog as a standard?"
Deena says, "Thanks again Mark and Adrian -- we will work this
Helen says, "Directing questions to a moderator yes that's
what I mean"
Deena says, "Think it was blog...? A typo?"
Helen says, "And asking people to keep questions to after
the 'Interview' section"
Mark Bernstein says, "Oh."
Everdeen waves goodbye to all.
Deena says, "That would work out, I think... "
Mark Bernstein says, "It happens one of the world experts
on standards was here."
Helen says, "Sorry Mark was a typo :(."
Deena says, "Nlog might be pretty cool to cover vlog blog
Mark Bernstein says, "Neither he nor I could imagine what you
were talking about."
Helen says, "I meant the blogger-type software - but what could
nlog mean? ;)"
Deena says, "Ahhh...another disadvantage of the chat...you don't
know who is here..."
Mark Bernstein says, "Well, Tinderbox isn't Blogger type."
Deena says, "The interview sections though tend to have to wait
on a Guest to type and go a lot slower..."
Nicki says, "Thanks everyone - see you."
Mark Bernstein says, "So obviously I don't think bloggers'
Mark Bernstein says, "In *that* sense."
Helen says, "I must read your articles Mark - I expect you have
definitions and standards in there."
is glad to meet a world expert on standards...any ideas Aaron
on what we could do to improve this from a "Standard" perspective?"
says, "I can't see what I type on this screen, Lingua have set
it very oddly not wide enough and yet too long (and I have a
says, "Helen, do @linelength = 40"
Aaron says, "This being...?"
Helen says, " just a mo"
Helen has disconnected.
Helen has connected.
Deena says, "The chats, the interface for discussing topical
issues in hypertext, new media literature. We've been doing
these for a couple of years."
Deena says, "And mark is right, they don't lend themselves to
long and serious conversations."
Aaron says, "Well, most chats I participate in use IRC, which
is an IETF standard and has a number of clients for all sorts
Aaron says, "It's a similar feel, but things are easier to manage
when you have a real program rather than a web browser to use."
Helen has disconnected.
Helen has connected.
Deena says, "Yes, trAce has an IRC as well, we were using that
Deena says, "Well, we will figure it out."
Helen says, "We are actively looking for a better Chat interface."
Mark Bernstein says, "Sorry to be a wet blanket."
Deena says, "Thanks for your ideas and for coming tonight."
Helen says, "The best one I have found is $20,000 we can't afford
Helen says, "No, it's good to have input."
Deena says, "Naw, just a realist. Thanks Mark."
Helen says, "But we are addressing these issues, aren't we Deena!"
Deena says, "But I think the new format will help get interaction
with people who like chats, or bulletin boards, or just reading
an article... so that will be good."
Deena says, "Yep. I will bid you all a good night there, and
let you know when the archive is up."
Deena says, "See you !"
Deena has disconnected.
Mark Bernstein has disconnected.
Aaron has disconnected.
Helen has disconnected.
A_Williams has disconnected.
trAcELO arrives in a choral suite.
-- End log: Sunday, September 15, 2002 5:53:48 pm CDT