Chat Transcript: February 17th 2002
Performing works

Sunday February 17th (in LinguaMOO)
This transcript produced by Deena Larsen

Straight to log missing introduction

-- Start log: Sunday, February 17, 2002 2:40:17 p.m. CST

Jean Smith, Julianne, Everdeen, Rob Kendall, JFK says, ", kheintz, and jaye arrive.
Deena says, "Hi Everdeen, Jean and Julianne, we are just warming up for the trAce/ELO chat on performing that will start in a few minutes."
komninos says, "Thank god there's nothing more scary than a chat room when you're alone"
Deena welcomes all the people who are sailing in :)
RobKendall nods a greeting to Deena
komninos says, "Is that the Dallas JFK says, "?"
Deena hands round lemonade ices and whiskies and other old fashioned theater treats
Salmon, MazThing, and Scott Rettberg breeze in.
kheintz says, "This looks like quite a nifty party today."
ScottR says, "Hello all"
Helen smiles at ScottR
RobKendall says, "Looks like we've got quite a gathering today"
Deena says, "Whew, we do have a great crowd today!"
Helen says, "It's an interesting subject...."
komninos shares a URL. (http://www.gu.edu.au/ppages/K_Zervos/colorwriter.html)
Helen says, "Kom, that colors page has given me a great idea for something I was stuck with. Thanks so much!!"
RobKendall how did you do that Komninos?
komninos says, "What make it appear or how did I make the piece?"
Deena says, "To share URLS, just type @URL http://wwwwhatever..."
Caitlin says, "Thank you for sharing your secrets ;) "
Deena says, "There is a how to MOO on the right hand side of the screen... with even more secrets!"
Komninos says, "I like secrets"
RobKendall says, "I was wondering how you made it pop up before me like that, Kom"
Deena says, "Yep, the URLs now show up in a different window...so people may need to go up to their browser window to see that it has opened..."
Deena sends round boxes and boxes of everlasting secrets to all
RobKendall peeks timidly into one of the boxes
Deena assures Rob that the secrets don't bite...usually.
RobKendall startled, drops the box
Caitlin says, "Robert! Don't open it!"
komninos says, "The beer made my cornflakes very soggy"
Deena hands komninos a beer-sucking towel
kheintz mulls over Kom's cornflakes with a spoon.
Margaret quietly enters.
Cahoots arrives. Cahoots says, "'lo all."
MazThing pops in.

the chat starts with a rush
Deena says, "Well, let's get this show on the road! We will seat latecomers as they come in..."
Deena says, "This ELO/trAce chat is about performing eliterature--how do we transfer a piece usually designed for a one on one experience on a computer screen to live audiences? Why would we do such an odd thing?"

poetry vs. prose
komninos says, "Can I start by asking that we make a distinction between hypermedia poetry in performance and hypermedia prose?"
Deena says, "Good question Komninos...Sure, let's start with that..and while folks are madly typing ideas, could I ask the guests to introduce
themselves?"
Helen says, "The same way as there would be a distinction between print poetry and print prose?"
Cahoots carefully makes a note. prose != poetry
Deena says, "Is there a difference between poetry readings in live audiences and prose performances?"
RobKendall says, "Kom, why should there specifically be a difference between poetry and prose in readings?"
Helen nods.
ScottR feels overpowered by all the poets in the room, and their menacing line breaks.
Everdeen says, "Kom, makes perfect sense!"
komninos says, "I meant that if people are talking about prose that they specify that"
komninos says, "Yes I think there is a difference"
RobKendall says, "Oh, ok that makes sense, Kom"
Helen thinks hypermedia works are neither prose nor poetry -- I write neither on the Web, but something intended to be new.
komninos says, "I ask because I assume prose type performances usually require the audience input on links to follow"
Helen says, "Why would that be different for prose and poetry? If you wish to give the audience interactivity then you do so, but often one wishes to demonstrate a particular path through a work?
"kheintz ponders Helen's statement about hypermedia works being neither prose nor poetry, and is not so sure.

expectations and control
Deena says, "Kom, Helen, this gets to the point of the matter quickly--What ARE the expectations in an electronic literature reading before a live audience?"
komninos says, "How much control do you give to audiences in this situation?"
JFK says, " try this
Caitlin says, "But in the context of figuring out ways to perform work that's written for the screen, might the commonalties between prose and poetry readings have much more in common than your question suggests?"
ScottR says, "I wouldn't say that's necessarily the case. You could read ht w/o audience interaction. And some ht poetry requires it in the same way"
RobKendall says, "Kom, I think poets solicit audience interaction as much as fiction writers -- or at least some do -- me, for instance"
Deena says, "Speaking of interactivity, could we all intersperse our introductions as we get started thinking about poetry prose hypermedia interactions with an audience?"
ScottR says, "But I would say that in the case of much multimedia poetry, there's an existing tradition that both you Kom and Kurt come out of, in performance poetry."

introductions:
Deena goes into a barker mode above the mad philosophizing and announces our guests tonight as Scott Rettberg with the Unknown fame, Caitlin Fisher, winner of the ELO prize in fiction, Komninos Zervos--another ELO prize winner, Rob Kendall of Clues and Life Set for Two and other wonderful books, Rob Swigart paper prose and hypertext prose writer...
Deena blushes as she has not sufficiently illuminated her guest's many accomplishments...
runran quietly enters.
RobKendall says, "And Deena is a very accomplished writer and live reader of hypertext"
Helen says, "Helen is a writer for the Web - not a poet and not a prose writer -- and also represents trAce"
komninos says, "Hi I 'm komninos"
Deena says, "Deena is primarily a hypertext/eliterature junkie and has only performed elit pieces but has been to many and many a linear prose and poetry reading"
Everdeen says, "Everdeen is in Houston Texas, writes collaboratively."
Cahoots lives in virtuality and is interested in online collaborations and interactions and how they can be used as jump points to writing/literature.
Nicki says, "I'm Nicki Hastie from Nottingham, UK, a compulsive user of trAce WebBoard and I write what I feel like writing without necessarily
labeling it prose or poetry - except where it's Magnetic Poetry :-)"
Deena hands Nicki a secret magnetic poetry generator
Nicki says, "Thanks Deena"

Different approaches and expectations
RobKendall says, "I think the different approaches we take in reading to a live audience depends on the electronic techniques more than on whether it's prose or poetry"
Deena says, "Is it the genre that shows different expectations in reading, or the piece itself? Rob Kendall's Clues, for example, expects the reader to "Solve" mysteries, yet it is also a type of poem..."
runran says, "I'd think performing hypermedia works to be very different from reading poetry, unless the work is entirely text-based"
Komninos says, "That's sancho"
kheintz says, "The difference between prose and poetry in hypertext merely is a threshold for grouping the texts... the point at which you say it's "Atomic", a granularity issue. You can group poems into a suite, and then suggest a structure/relationship between them. There's a direct cognate in this with ordinary poetry readings.Whereas in a prose or longer fiction piece, you group lots of pages and call the whole thing a unit"
komninos says, "How?
kheintz says, "The presentation is similar between, as it is in the aural and paper traditions."
Caitlin says, "I had the audience select all the links once at a performance, but -- let's face it -- not all single readings of a hypertext are equally good ;) "
Deena says, "Caitlin, yes, I have had the audience control where we go and then you can wind up in places you *don't* want to be!"
RobKendall says, "When I give a live reading of my hypertext poetry, I 'm always very concerned with making it into an interactive experience for the audience. I want it to be quite different from a conventional reading"
JFK says, "Aren't all readings interactive?"
komninos says, "I like Margie's method of preselected entry points for the audience to come in on"
Deena says, "Yeah, Marjorie Luesebrink and Jennifer Ley do actually write for the screen--preparing the pieces to be shown..."
Helen says, "You wouldn't as a novelist read only the sections your audience asked for -- but ones you picked out as representative"
RobKendall says, "No all readings are not interactive. "
RobKendall says, "I've given many conventional readings of poetry and many interactive readings of hypertext poetry, and the two are very different experiences"

why have readings?
JFK says, "I can't help but think this line of inquiry will not serve us in trying to discuss the more important discussion about shifting the paradigm of interactivity away from the computer towards an audience. Why do we want to do this?
Deena says, "Good point JFK says, ". Why are we always being asked to do live elit readings? why do most conferences have this component? What is it about our nation/cultural expectations that expect live readings of any kind of literature and how does electronic literature fall into this?"
Everdeen says, "Isn't a prime desideratum for the audience at any reading to have an experience which somehow gets "Closer" to the creator of the piece?"
ScottR says, "I like the live readings because most people still don't know what the heck you're talking about when you talk about e-lit. It's a way to introduce the work and the idea of interactivity, etc. to people in a social setting."
kheintz agrees with Scott, especially since the many technological forms e-lit takes often make it easier to demonstrate than to describe.

interactive readings
JFK says, "I am interested in what your definition of interactive is then if you believe that humans can sit in a room together and not interact in some way."
Deena says, "Rob, all, what are the main differences between linear poetry /prose readings and elit ones?"
Deena says, "Good point JFK says, ". When I interact with an audience, I mean that it is not a "straight" reading, but I ask the audience questions, see where they want to go, explain the non-followed paths, let them ask me questions half way through, etc. So my readings are more of a dialogue than a monologue -- or should I say mulit-logue?"
RobKendall says, "When I give a live reading of a hypertext, I feel it's important to give the audience something they couldn't get just by looking at the piece on the Web. I also feel it's important to give them something different from a linear reading"
Helen likes Deena's and Rob's ways of doing it
Deena says, "Rob, you and Komninos both build on what is on the web in your live performances, could you explain how you meld the two and how you craft your live readings?"
Julenisse Guest arrives.
Deena says, "Hi Julenisse, we are going all over the map, but are basically hashing out how we compare live readings of linear works and electronic works"
komninos says, "Well at the elo t1 party last year the audience seem to take the first link they came across, never really letting anything flesh out, or even reading the whole block of text before choosing a link"
Deena says, "Komninos, all, what do you do to shape audience expectations so they don't;t just jump at the first link? Is this a mob mentality at times, when we follow the first voice?"
Helen says, "I like to get people moving so that they physically explore the idea of a hypertext..and physically interact"
Deena says, "Kurt, how do you demonstrate the technological forms of elit?"
Caitlin says, "It's always an act of translation -- you can't 'perform' the feeling of visiting a richly-layered piece.. "
RobKendall says, "I like reading clues for a live audience and then challenging them to find the links on the page that lead to clues to help solve the mystery. I will coax and encourage and drop hints. With an enthusiastic audience, it can become a lot of fun. I try to guide the audience through my work while also giving them the chance to interact with it. I'll often explain the ramifications of choosing one option over another -- things that aren't obvious to them."
Helen shares a URL. (http://wordcircuits.com/clues/)
Deena says, "Thanks Helen""
runran says, "Very nice Rob"
RobKendall says, "Thanks, runran"
komninos says, "I'm a fascist. I maintain control at all times. I don't give choices"

tech fore and aft
kheintz says, "You have to trot them out before an audience, Deena.You need tech skills and a little chutzpah. And you have to have sensitivity to the audience as much as for the work at hand."
Deena says, "Kurt, how do you trot out and explain the technical aspects?"
kheintz says, "You take them aside later... after the show."
Deena says, "Kurt, so that is still a one on one explanation of the technology..."
Helen nods at kheintz
kheintz says, "I'm a big believer in putting the tech in the background. I've fought with friends over this."
Deena says, "Kurt, if tech is in the background, what is in the foreground?"
kheintz says, "People like the gadgetry one uses for putting such a show together, but that does not make the art."
kheintz says, "The text is the foreground cause, and really out to be all the time."

is linear different, good, bad, or indifferent?
JFK says, " I am interested in addressing the question who is interactivity serving? The general consensus is that linear is bad and non-linear is good and I would like to know how this became universally accepted as an ideal (I'm just representing an oppositional view), considering the widespread preference amongst audiences for popular culture products that behave as traditionally as they ever did."
ScottR says, "Whoever said that was the consensus, JFK says, "?"
kheintz says, "You simply are taking an evolving instrument, like the piano once was, and are impressing new ideas through it."
Helen says, "There have always been interactive types of performance back to the storyteller tradition"
JFK says, "Scott, just a feeling I got from the group."
kheintz says, "Exactly, Helen."
komninos says, "But that is because it is poetry and often there is only one way through a poem"
Deena says, "Wait, only one way through a poem? gosh, I hope not!"
Deena says, "Ohhh...JFK says, ", I hope we aren't saying linear is bad. Linear is great. Just like painting is great. but nonlinear is different, as sculpture is different from painting...the question is, how do we present nonlinear to an audience that has geared its expectations to linear?"
ScottR says, "I think linear and nonlinear are non value-assigning characteristics of differing narrative and poetic structures."
kheintz says, "Story-tellers are nonlinear by necessity, though they have had tended toward linearity. In neither case, linear or nonlinear, is it probably entirely appropriate to telegraph the story to the audience so broadly as to type it out on the screen for them. In a personal reading, they'll have to have the text. In a performance, it's probably better left aside so the screen doesn't upstage the reader(s)."

visual, aural, tactile
runran says, "Does anyone perform work that includes lots of visuals?"
Deena says, "Komninos, how do you show your works--do you rehearse your performances?"
The housekeeper arrives to cart Cahoots off to bed.
Helen says, "It IS difficult to perform the visual elements... some of it HAS to be on screen - though I have been known to wear a copy of what you see on screen for emphasis"
Caitlin says, "It's a compromise, I think... I cater to aural comprehension and, yes, very traditional expectations on the part of some audiences... like the need for closure. I *love* the idea that people will 'get' the structure and be satisfied... but I've learned to 'finish' my readings, too"
kheintz applauds Caitlin
Caitlin says, "'sometimes' -- depends on the audience, of course"
JFK says, "that is a key point Caitlin - the nature of the audience at hand."
Deena says, "Helen, all, how do we perform the visual elements in a piece? I usually haul out the computer and either have the piece running in the background or I simulate a one on one user experience with a large screen. either, to my mind, is completely satisfactory."
RobKendall says, "Most of my work has very strong visual elements. I always project the computer screen with a projector so the audience can see it. They would miss a good deal of the effect without seeing it. Clues would be virtually impossible to read without letting the audience see the pictures"

back to audience and expectations
Deena says, "Let's go back a second and define audience expectations. What do we think audiences expect in linear works? in nonlinear works?"
RobKendall says, "I don't think audiences know what to expect in nonlinear works, so we have to give them a lot of guidance during a live reading"
komninos says, "In performance I think an audience expects to be entertained, at the computer its a different relationship, the user can have more control"
Deena says, "Rob, how do you give that kind of guidance?"
JFK says, " I agree, Rob. There's no real model for the audience to judge from."
Deena says, "Caitlin, how do you define the audience before hand?"
Helen says, "I think you need to bring more than the text out from the screen"
Deena says, "Helen, how do you bring more than the text out?"
Helen says, "By using interactive and multimedia elements in the performance in the same way as you use different elements in multimedia in the work -- e.g. I can add the physical texture of the cardigan or the weaving shuttle to the various elements of it I show in the screen work"
Helen shares a URL. (http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/www/webwarpweft/knitting.htm)
Deena says, "Helen, do you take weaving or cardigans or other physical artifacts for your readings?"
Helen says, "Deena, yes -- I wear the cardigan :) it adds a dimension to what is already there -- the point being that there are many layers"
Deena says, "Rob, to go back to your point, how does reading before a live audience reveal their expectations and help you to re-form your work?"
RobKendall says, "Deena, when I was reading Clues in public, I found that I was always responding to them verbally after they made choices. I would say, 'oops, you missed the clue there' or 'good choice, you found the clue.' This became a very important part of the dynamic of the reading that was missing from the Web version."

first tips and stage tricks
Deena says, "Kom, others, what staging advice would you give for electronic works?"
RobKendall says, "Deena, when I introduce the work, I explain a little about how it works, and then as I read, I will often spell out the different options available. I 'll also often "Give away" what will happen when they make different choices."
komninos says, "Many live gigs I've sat in the dark looking at a screen full of blurry small fonted text and heard the writer reading their work"
kheintz says, "Exactly, Kom... and how did the text help then?"
Cahoots arrives.
kheintz says, "Better to listen."
Deena says, "Komninos, yes, I think that that hurts the piece when you just see a screen full of text. But how else to show the links not taken, the images not followed?"
RobKendall says, "I often make revisions to a work after giving a live reading -- changing things so that it will work better in a live presentation"
Deena says, "Hi Cahoots, we are talking about how we make readings of live electronic works work" Cahoots says, "Hi Deena, thnx"
komninos says, "It didn't, this is bad staging, you have to consider your audience before choosing stuff that suits the stage."
kheintz says, "I've considered this dilemma of links visible, but text muted..."
ScottR thinks the screen is pretty important dimension in what's different about performing elit and trad lit readings. Primarily because its really weird to watch somebody read something off a screen that you can't see."
Salmon says, "There's also a pragmatic consideration... the elit author is much more at the mercy of the host of the reading series, conference, etc., in terms of technical accommodation"
Deena nods at Salmon and hands everyone worry free magic technical assistance
Julianne says, "As an audience member I have noticed that performances that tend to work for me, are unique and different from each other, and many performances that don't work for me...are the same. (My least favorite part is waiting 15 minutes between readings for tech fussing, laptops rebooting ... Night at the Cybertexts was so pleasurable partly because y'all suffered up front to avoid that) ... as a sort of expert on 1 on 1 readers' expectations I have an educated guess that it's not possible to say anything useful about audience expectations in this transitional time - much better to sense the mood in real time and react to it?"
JFK says, "When I am considering a work for live Vs computer spaces I ask myself the questions: what is added and what is lost and therein lies the challenge of the piece."
kheintz says, "The document can be formatted or produced such that the links can render in a separate window... for performance... while the readers can work from their own screen."

screen vs. stage (or is that LCD projector?)
Deena says, "Kurt, so you would create a different document for the audience reading than the document for the computer one on one reading?"
kheintz says, "Yes, Deena."
kheintz says, "But this begets a real problem... you can't build once, run everywhere, without the work having to compromise in some way. Still, this is an old problem again, similar to the page/stage debate that flourished in performance poetry only a decade ago."
Deena says, "Is live reading a consideration when you are creating the piece? Do any of you, in other words, create the piece thinking about how you will perform it in front of an audience?"
komninos says, "Well my screen doesn't mirror my presence but complements the words I speak, dialogues with the live."
runran says, "I like Rob's point about adapting works for performance, and revising so they work better ... performance, I 'd think, is very different from presenting works on the screen ... an entirely different ball of wax."
kheintz says, "I think the document needs to accommodate the audience and the traditions of gathering people before a story."
Deena had forgotten about the page/stage debate. Kurt, were there any conclusions from that debate that would shed light on how to present an elit work to a live audience?

seduction
Caitlin says, "I think reading aloud is always, in part, about seduction "
Deena wants to hear more about the seduction
Caitlin says, "Hmm... I've been thinking a lot about having a different set of visuals run on screen when I 'm reading -- I hate the 'slide show effect' worse than that, maybe) of reading along with an audience"
kheintz says, "Only that the debate made it clear that you can write for page, or write for stage, and it's hard to write for both. Pretty much the whole hurricane in a sentence right there..."
Caitlin says, "Given what you say, Kurt, do others re-write/re-code pieces to perform them?"
Deena says, "Kurt,that really does sum it up! I have never been able to write both for the stage and the screen!"
Deena says, "Komninos, what do you see as the essential differences in the meaning, presentation, and tone of your works when someone is reading them by himself Vs seeing you perform them?"
komninos says, "And you can write for the cyber age"
kheintz says, "A few great writers manage to get away with both in the self-same text... namely, create plain (paper-based) texts that read very well aloud in performance, and don't seem watered down when you consider them in print."
RobKendall says, "I found with clues that reading the work to a live audience and getting their response helped me understand some things that could be improved in the Web version as well. I added more feedback for choices to the Web version, when I realized that I was always providing this feedback verbally during my live readings"
Deena says, "Rob, can I get the URL for clues"
komninos says, "That's the title of my Ph.D. thesis, the page the stage and the cyber age, so lay off it's mine!"
kheintz smirks and chuckles, reacting to Kom.
Deena gives Kom all of the rights to any of the above mentioned words in perpetuity...

online readings
Helen says, "A grad student once contacted us about a way to take people through a performance of an online work online -- so that all of us here could be taken on a reading of a work...."
Deena says, "Helen, that may be the answer--a narrated guide tour though the screen work..."
kheintz says, "I do believe the screen is what differentiates our work from so many other forms of literature, whether we render it as public performance or for basic, contemplative, reading in solitude."
Salmon says, "Has anyone here ever done or considered doing a live performance of a piece within a moo, or other synchronous environment?"
Salmon says, "This would give the live performance, social aspect, without the screen/intimacy differences"
Cahoots says, "Hi salmon, I 'm not sure if this counts, but I've done live presentations of technical guides through MOO"
Salmon says, "Cahoots, I guess it depends, did you conceive of that presentation as something that would not be accessed through performance? in that case their might be some parallels, don't you think?"
Cahoots says, "Salmon, it's an interesting differentiation - presentation Vs performance. My view is that presentation without performance is boring. What made this particularly interesting was that the other presenter was in Australia, while the group and myself were in UK, in the same room"

vector graphics and small print
komninos says, "Yeah like Marjorie Luesebrink or Jennifer Ley, very guided"
runran says, "I'd think that vector graphics would translate better on a screen than say .jpgs or .gifs ... so, could a person using visuals translate them to vectors for performance? sorry if I seem stuck on the idea of imagery in conjunction with elit ... but it is something I 'd like to explore"
Deena says, "Hmmm...runran, is this a technical fix to show up on the screen or a p philosophical approach?"
JFK says, "that's an interesting point runran the privileging of the visual in notions of the hypermedia in performance."
komninos says, "All I know is looking at small blurry(its my age) text on a screen is boring. Even if the font size of prose was greatly increased and it scrolled would be an improvement"
Deena hands Kom a magic set of glasses to pour through screens and discern secrets at the same time.
kheintz says, "Another differentiation: the potential turbulence of the text, in that is isn't rendered until the computer dumps it on the screen. And the computer can intervene in that textual transfer in many, many ways."
Deena says, "Kurt, does the screen also differentiate our performances?"

practical schticks and tricks
Deena hands round more lemonade and rubs for our sore typing fingers
Deena says, "I would like to get back to what practical advice you can give for someone fashioning a reading from an elit piece..."
Deena writes on the board--rule one Avoid screenfuls of mere text?
ScottR says, "I'm a firm believer in the value of cheezy performance schtick. Whatever else a performance of a new media thang is, it involves some bodies on a stage, preferably doing something entertaining. The Unknown wear suits. That's a beatles thing, and drink cocktails onstage, that's a rat pack thing, and ring a call-bell. We've worked out a lot of little rituals, primarily for comic effect."
kheintz says, "Yes, Deena."
Deena says, "Yet the Unknown readings are mostly screens of text..."
komninos says, "The screen is still a focus in a theatre situation, the performer might as well be selling peanuts whilst a screen is illuminated and the space darkened"
kheintz concurs with Kom about screen size and the predisposition of the audience.
Deena says, "Kom, all, how do our audience expectations for screens (movies, powerpoint presentations, etc) affect their expectations for electronic lit?"
JFK says, " I don't agree, it depends on how u use the screens full of text
kheintz says, "It means we have to be conscious of what is redundant between the many channels of information we're invoking."
kheintz says, "We do not want pictures of our actors/readers, unless they comment on the actors or readers."
Deena says, "How can you use screens of text effectively?"
JFK says, "isn't that an interesting question Deena."
Caitlin says, "The screen seems so important.. but often it just seems to be used as a prop + the reading wouldn't be changed dramatically without it (except in the way it signals 'computer'). I don't think I use the screen well enough."
komninos says, "But Caitlin if its a big screen it is read as movies not a computer"
Helen says, "I THINK I've probably done more presentations of webworks to kids... so I may have a different viewpoint..."
kheintz says, "We must be careful of theatrical priorities... that one element doesn't upstage another (between screen and live action) unless there's a purpose for it."
runran says, "Rob, how good do the bitmaps look on a bigger screen ... say the hallway? does it break up?"
Deena says, "Runran, I haven't noticed that much of a difference---on the screen you can see each pixel..."
RobKendall says, "Runran, with a good projector it will look pretty good on a wall"

ritual understanding
Deena says, "Good points, Scott. I think we can use rituals to build up expectations. Talan does a genius at the chalk board schtick, which shows the complexity of his work...but how do we ensure that the audience understands these rituals?"
Julianne says, "I thought Talan's chalk board thing was an ironic commentary / sendup, not explication. Just goes to show you there are many ways to take a performance."
komninos says, "Yeah talan's chalkboard was fantastic because it played/dialogued with the screen"
ScottR says, "You make sure they're drunk at the time."
kheintz cheers, Scott!

screen seductions
Deena hands everyone a packet of drunk and happy pills to slip into their audience's cokes for the next time...
komninos says, "Datechat?"
Caitlin says, "Ah, seduction, again ;) .. the pull of the cinematic..."
Salmon says, "I would like to flog my dead MOO horse again, and contest what Scott said about bodies and stages being necessary for performance and schtick"
Deena says, "Caitlin, how do you make an electronic lit reading seductive?"
Deena says, "Salmon, could you talk about performances on the MOO?"
ScottR says, "Salmon, do you mean performing in MOO space, chat rooms, email"
Cahoots hands salmon a cat'o nine tails for the MOO horse
Helen says, "You don't interact with TV or film on screen -- but with elit you do. That's where the difference is. You have to seduce them."
(thanks Caitlin) into wanting to see more ... "
Salmon says, "Deena, I think, is a master of schitck and ritual in a MOO environment, and I mean that as the highest compliment =)"
Deena bows and grins, juggling more beer and hostess aprons.
Cahoots grins back

presentations
Deena says, "Cahoots, all how do you make a performance interesting?"
How do you present the material, explain the background and the new approaches, and get across a sense of the work all in 15 minutes?"
ScottR says, "Yeah, there are a lot of ways I think you can talk about the performativity of the medium itself (themselves)."Salmon says, "Yea.. I just think there are really interesting opportunities for elit performances in these spaces.."
Deena throws around some more schticks and schtones
RobKendall says, "As someone said, the important thing to remember about a live reading is that it's a performance. That means there should be a strong personal element involved -- the unique tone of the author's voice, their body language, their asides, or even their funny clothes (alla Scott R.)"
Salmon says, "Especially now that there's the web window"
komninos says, "As I say text can be seductive if it large and doing something, not just a projection of a whole page of text filling a screen"
Cahoots thinks, "Mmmm. How do I make a performance interesting?"
Deena says, "What are some more of the performance tricks that you guys use?"
Caitlin says, "I think listening to someone read always has something to do with identification/desire ... and reading to someone else does, too ... I think this may have something to do with some audiences being disappointed with readings that really showcase what some elit does
best -- jump around associatively, resist closure, foreground tech... many many people still want to be swept up -- that's what they're listening for ... I ;m sure others disagree, but..."
Deena says, "Hmmm...so good readings have folks jumping around, resisting closure, etc..."
kheintz says, "You (dis)place media in ways that surprise the audience. For example, we did a performance where we wheeled out a huge dinner on a cart, and put a TV monitor under the silver dome covering what the audience thought would be a roast."
Cahoots says, "I think it comes down to engaging with your audience, picking up on what they're reacting to, anticipating their responses and delivering to their expectations"
Helen says, "A lot depends on the audience.... you have to know where they're coming from. Teenagers are different from 6 year olds, library writing groups different form elo symposium attendees..."
Deena jumps around like a maniac, desperately avoiding closure...
kheintz says, "Trickery... true. But it got laughs and really drew focus."
Everdeen says, "Caitlin, I don't think I look to be swept up by a reading, so much as perhaps get a bit of illumination that I wouldn't otherwise"
The housekeeper arrives to cart Margaret off to bed.
RobKendall says, "If you're doing hypertext, I think it's important to talk to the audience a little in between reading each screen of text."
Sometimes it's even a good idea to skip over several screens to give them a better overview."
Deena says, "Kurt, that is a great way to work this... neat idea"
Caitlin thinking

crafty stages
kheintz says, "It's _theater_."
Deena says, "So you surprise your audience's expectations..."
komninos says, "Trickery is seductive at hyperformances, just as in theatre"
Deena says, "Everdeen, what do you expect in a reading?"
kheintz says, "Stagecraft is really the 4000 pound gorilla we're not talking about here."
Helen says, "Make sure you get to show them the screens from the work that work best on a large screen...."
Deena says, "Kurt, good point. How do we learn stagecraft--and incorporate it in our readings?"
Julianne waves one of her favorite books, _Magic and Showmanship_ by
Henning Nelms...
Deena jumps up and tries to grab it from Julianne's hands
Julianne brings out a bunch of copies, two for everyone...and some silk handkerchiefs and top hats
kheintz chuckles about Julianne... while he winds up the Hammond organ for a round of "It Was Fascination..." in the key of B.
Deena says, "Helen, so you craft the reading..."
kheintz says, "I've wondered whether this chat actually is pointing toward hypermedia theater instead of a basic reading of hypertexts."
Helen says, "We watch other people perform....."
Everdeen says, "Deena, I think one of the critical aspects for me at a reading...is what is added by having the creator do it"
komninos says, "You have to know people and audiences first"
Deena says, "Everdeen, what do you think that having the creator read adds that you don't get from the screen by yourself?"
Helen says, "Yes, you craft, for best effect -- leaving just enough interactivity -- kids respond to instant stories, teenagers like parody..."
kheintz says, "Deena... We have to hang with the people who have experience with audiences... namely the actors, stage directors, peformance artists, and so on."
Cahoots [to Deena]: try doing a course of acting workshops - forget the e ht and concentrate on performance. Then when you know how to do that, incorporate what you've learned in your presentation
Everdeen says, "Something that explicates, illuminates the creator's thoughts, intents"
komninos says, "There are elements of theatre to performing texts"
Deena makes a note to sign up for an acting course
ScottR says, "My favorite elit events have placed the new media lit alongside other kinds of performance -- performance poetry, music, performance art."
Deena says, "Scott, where were some of these events?"
ScottR says, "GiG 1 and 2 in Chicago"
Deena says, "Komninos, you have a theater background--how has that shaped your performance poetry?"
JFK says, " stagecraft implies budgets and portability too, and basically our e-performances are necessarily anchored in technological sites, and we
become a node called 'live' in the ongoing life of the piece.
Helen says, "I am trying to link up with drama groups -- I think there is tremendous potential in the crossover"
kheintz says, "Not necessarily so, JFK says, "."
Cahoots nods to Helen, that's a good idea

stagey tech
Deena says, "The other 400 pound gorilla we should mention is technology--how do you port this to conferences without a budget?"
komninos says, "But don't forget the audience has come for words, to hear text, to see text being read , not necessarily theatre"
Deena says, "How do you ensure that your technology will work so you can access the screen?"
JFK says, " is it possible to hold productions outside of cabling and screens of hypermedia work?"
kheintz says, "Not really, JFK, unless Bluetooth (or similar wireless LAN technology) solves some of the necessities of using advanced tech without cables."
Salmon says, "Why not, indeed, everdeen"
RobKendall says, "The most interesting readings I've given are to groups where audience members tend to know each other. There's a certain camaraderie that develops. Audience members aren't afraid to show their personalities and biases. You even get discussions and arguments going
among members about what options to choose in the hypertext."
kheintz mutters under his breath that the Gig shows were not simple shows to mount on a shoestring, but that they were, and they (more or less) worked."
Deena says, "Kurt, how did you mount the Gig shows on a shoestring? Any advice and techniques to share?"
kheintz says, "Deena... We had people bring everything a la carte, and we had to stipulate that they run their stuff on fairly fixed, standardized platforms..."
kheintz says, "Use common standards... for computing and video, primarily."
Deena says, "Kurt, what kind of common standards?"
kheintz says, "If a performer had a hypertext she or he wanted to present in Gig, they had to know it would run on a Mac Powerbook, for example. They had to bring their stuff on a CD-ROM, and had to be there in time for technical rehearsal."
kheintz says, "Simple stuff, but it uncomplicates so many other things."
Deena says, "Technical rehearsals are CRUCIAL..."
Salmon nods.
Deena runs around chanting tech check tech check tech check
kheintz couldn't agree more about tech rehearsals, as he's died on stage many times with all that lovely silicon sitting beside him doing nothing, but for the lack of rehearsal time to debug it all.
Helen says, "Tech check yes!"
_________________
| |
Cahoots holds up a BIG sign: | Tech Check Now! |
|_________________|
Caitlin says, "Generally a bit of both -- I select a starting point. I generally have a default path in mind"RobKendall says, "And always take along backup equipment and copies of the works when you're reading"
Helen says, "There is a lot more performance and presentation of works at Incubation this year than there was last time. It certainly does have tech implications -- but this time we have two new buildings that weren't around last time, and much better newly integrated tech (but no
macs :("
Helen says, "And I am moving toward performing some works without the computer...."
Deena says, "Helen, how are you performing the works without a computer?"
Helen says, "People become the nodes..."

paper performers
Caitlin says, "Does anyone else read from a paper print-out? I often do because I hate to turn my back to the audience to read the screen.. And now I 'm sometimes reading pieces that don't 'match' the screen"
Deena says, "Caitlin, reading from paper helps to keep focused another reason to do a "Tour " through a work rather than a free fall jumping around..."
"Helen does sometimes Caitlin (or from memory)
RobKendall says, "Caitlin, I face the audience and read from my laptop screen while the projection appears behind me"
Cahoots [to RobKendall]: that's got to be the best option - you know you're reading the same screen, but you don't lose contact with your audience

creators on stage
Everdeen says, "If the ***performance*** aspects in the reading are the most important...then why have the creator do it? why not just anyone who's good at performing???"
Deena says, "Good point, Everdeen, why do we expect authors to be the best performers? T.S. Eliot's readings of the Wasteland are dry and boring, yet the work itself is full of drama!"
Cahoots [to ev,]: "I think if the creator can do it, that's better. They are the best person to be able to anticipate audience response and move their text in the right direction."
Everdeen says, "Yes, Cahoots, there is something unique in the creator-work relationship. And that is far more important an aspect than anything else"
Salmon says, "Do you think that there's more pressure on elit writers do "Put on a good show," because to some degree, the medium is still on trial? I mean, we don't lynch our print poets for the dreadful readings they do.. at least.. I don't... though I mutter long and hard under my breath"
Deena says, "Great point, Salmon! We all feel on trial--particularly when doing a reading in a more mainstream venue like AWP or a regular writing convention.."
ScottR says, "Salmon, yeah. I think there is, because there isn't a standard set of cultural practices for "Elit readings."
Deena says, "Cahoots, Ev, maybe too the creator can share some insight into the way the work flows that you wouldn't get otherwise. I never understood Jim Rosenberg's stuff until he read it, for example"
Everdeen says, "Deena, precisely, which is why it was interesting to hear Rob mention the sorts of comments he finds himself making."
RobKendall says, "It would be great to have other people performing our work, but how do we get them to do it?"
Everdeen says, "I think it would be interesting to follow up on Rob's comment...about it being great to have other people performing our work...."
Deena says, "Ev...hmmmmmmmmmmmm...maybe we should do that in a reading..."

cultured stages
Deena says, "All, would you want to see a set of cultural practices?"
Deena says, "What cultural practices would you recommend for elit readings?"
Caitlin says, "...Everdeen, Deena -- people aren't looking for the same thing, of course. I guess I just see a tension between what generally works for me in terms of performing linear prose for an audience and some of the things we may do to highlight the real structures... the sculptural features of some of this e-work... this may include following lots of links, resisting closure etc., but it needn't, of course. There is a pressure both to cater and to extend people's ability to listen in new ways. "
Everdeen says, "Caitlin, do you tend to define which choices are made...or do you let the audience choose?"
Everdeen says, "Caitlin and what your default path is, and why it is your preferred....THAT I would find interesting :)"
ScottR says, "Poetry readings, academic, poetry readings, slams -- these are forms we know."

gathering our forces
komninos says, "Too much happening here, just like an un-guided hyperformance, too many directions at once, nothing really being fleshed out"
Deena says, "Kom, yeah...let's sum up a bit... let me see if I can remember without scrolling back...Expectations are still somewhat fluid for elit readings, as it is a new field...and expectations even on stage differ now. We need to craft readings for the stage and use stage craft.. Ad technical checks, compatibility are crucial in making things work..."
kheintz says, "... use stagecraft, but not be afraid to extend the stage craft palette as we embrace new media in performance."
runran says, "Re: stagecraft -- I 'm hoping my several years as bartender comes in handy ..."
Deena says, "Can we flesh out advice to eliterature readers--people who have been asked to read their works to a live audience?"
Cahoots [to runran,]: ah a bartender - g'us a drink?
Deena hands round Guinness and stout and porter and Coors komninos says, "2. "
Deena wonders about Kom's two and hands him two more beers for his soggy cereal
komninos says, "Ahhh"
Cahoots smiles a thanks

re-engaging the whys
Deena says, "Rob, all, what tools do you use to engage the audience, to engage, seduce the audience?"
Cahoots says, "I find it helps to know a little about the audience before hand - that way you have a sense of expectations before you start"
JFK says, " give them something they fear or want!
RobKendall says, "Well, if I want the audience to respond to a request to choose from options, I have to make sure that the options presented seem intriguing. Sometimes it helps to build them up by just talking off the cuff a bit"
kheintz snorts approval at JFK's tyranny of her audience.
Helen gets kids to tap the screen where they want me to click
Helen wonders whether a performance/presentation of Monster Motel would work with adults
Deena looks at the clock and realizes we are rushing to the end of the hour... we have covered a lot of ground, but I would like to sum up: Could you guys go back through Why we are doing live performances of elit?
ScottR says, "For the kids"
Deena hands JFK the royal reigns for her audience
Deena says, "To get more people intrigued by this brave new medium"
Cahoots says, "To push boundaries of what's expected of the medium"
kheintz says, "To do something original, if it's possible... and see where the combination of text, sound, and image can actually go."
Deena says, "To see how others react to a piece..."
RobKendall says, "Readings give us a chance to get out into the real world."
Cahoots looks surprised, "You mean this isn't the real world?"
Deena hands Cahoots the keys to the real world...
Cahoots inspects the keys in trepidation
Deena assures Cahoots that the keys do bite
Cahoots drops the keys in alarm
Deena forgets to show Cahoots the door to the real world

Rule numbering
komninos starts off a list:
Don't have stuff on the screen that is not doing anything
Think of it as a seduction, you have to draw the audience in with theatrical devices
Don't assume what works on a computer screen will be good when projected
Use tech friendly material and formats
Deena hands Kom a golden nutshell for his lovely summation of life and advice
JFK says, " absolutely Deena!
Deena says, "2a. use the tricks to expand and extend the audience expectations"
Caitlin says, "5. don't subject an audience to fifteen minutes of performance you wouldn't want to sit through yourself ;)"
Deena says, "6. make sure that the screen is interesting by testing it ahead of time...
7. do tech checks"
kheintz says, "8. Avoid redundancy between stage and screen like the plague."
komninos says, "Isn't that avoid cliché like the p[lague?"
kheintz says, "Well, Kom, it's partly a rephrasing of what you said, that when you have something on the screen it should move. I think the speaker/performer should not be there as an "Also-ran" figure, and neither should the elements on the screen."
ScottR says, "Avoid the plague like a cliché"
Deena hands kom and Kurt and Scott more plague checkers
komninos says, "Haahaa"
Deena says, "9. craft the piece for the stage--either through tours or chosen nodes or through an intro to a free from reading"
kheintz says, "Think "Warm" thoughts... readers are flesh and blood, so respect them that way. So are the audience."
Deena says, "Kurt, good point..."
Helen says, "Craft - isn't that the secret to the whole thing, writing it, presenting it, selling it? Do we have to be salespeople a bit?"
Cahoots says, "That's a good point Helen"
Caitlin says, "Also, if structure is important and that's what you want to communicate find ways to show the structure -- show what re-reading a node adds to the work, for example, show the pleasures of revisiting, rereading passages ..."

voices in the dark
RobKendall says, "Try to make the reading seem as far removed as possible from someone just bringing their face in a page and reading. Talk to the audience. Lots of eye contact."
komninos says, "Eye contact is OK at soundings but in a darkened lecture room?"
kheintz says, "In a darkened lecture room... with a pin spot."
Deena hands out little laser lights for everyone to pinpoint their audience's eyes in a dark room...
kheintz says, "... on you, the reader."
Deena says, "Do we need darkened lecture rooms to do this?"
komninos says, "How can we share the focus with the screen?"
Caitlin says, "Komninos, *pretend* you see their eyes ;) -- look toward the back of the room with attention and they'll all think you're looking directly at them"
kheintz recognizes that Caitlin has just explained a theatrical tactic.
Helen says, "There has to be a certain amount of darkness or no-one can see the screen (experience talking)"
RobKendall says, "Even in a dark room, you have to give the illusion at least that you're looking at people and talking *to* them. Nothing more boring than listening to anyone read anything if they don't make this effort -- if they just drone on"
Deena says, "I wonder if we can do half and half--with the screen in darkness. Or show a large tv as the screen... again, it depends so much on the technical capabilities of the venue!"
komninos says, "Yeah the top of my head is pretty boring"
Deena tries to remember the top of Kom's head and is probably glad that she can't
Cahoots says, "Another useful trick - record yourself in practice. That way you'll pick up areas where you need to work on voice modulation"
kheintz says, "So we recognize that there are behaviors that we can embrace, even if we're set up in a fairly static lecture space, that will enhance the engagement between us and the audience when we read from hypertexts."
Everdeen nods and thinks "Yep, project voice in different directions.
Deena says, "Great stage tricks, Cahoots!"
Helen says, "Practice makes perfect...."

literature pimps
ScottR says, "Yeah be a pimp for literature. Wear an orange jacket and go on Letterman for literature."
Deena says, "I like the advice about stagecraft and taking an acting course..."
Helen says, "....if it gets people interested in elit...."
Deena looks round for her pimping literature outfit
Salmon grins.
Deena says, "So, when were we converging on Oprah?"
Helen says, "Oprah! What a brill idea!"
kheintz says, "I can see it now: Oprah's Hypertext of the Month Club."
ScottR says, "Fuck Oprah let's tour with a carnival"
Helen grins evilly and begins to fade away, leaving only the grin.
runran applauds Scott
runran says, "OOPS"
Deena says, "Oprah reaches more folks than a carnival, and you don't have to be out in all weathers..but we could do both!"
Cahoots practices trapeze for the carnival
Deena pets Helen's Cheshire cat grin
Deena says, "Wow, this has been a lively session with lots of good pointers--I'll edit the log and try to get some fleshed out trains of thought through all our chaotic jumping..."
ScottR says, "Begin PIMP> Hey the Unknown: An Anthology will be on sale March 1, 2002 @unknownhypertext.com 240 pages of experimental fiction and poetry, and scenes from the Unknown. 6*9 paperback.<PIMP end Gotta go. Thanks everyone. See you in LA"
kheintz says, "But you know that it's a direction that will be taken."
Everdeen says, "Not necessary, but certainly a different option"
kheintz says, "Bye, Scott!"
JFK says, " ciao Scott
Caitlin says, "Congrats, Scott!"
komninos says, "You can't deny that some of the audience has come to see you as well as your text/hypermedia, something they don't get from an online experience"

live wires
Helen wonders if presenting a work, performing a work and live reading of a work are different things?
kheintz says, "Helen, I think you're onto something."
komninos says, "Yep three very different things Helen"
kheintz says, "There's reading a piece for a more or less clinical understanding of it, that would be in an academic environment."
Everdeen muses that Helen has got something there.
Helen says, "We will have to come back to this topic in a later chat!"
Deena says, "Yes, and it sounds as though performing the work leads to more interaction, seduction, engagement.."
Deena wonders if she has the order there right...
kheintz says, "Then there may have to be a more truly theatrical format, where the reading is about the show, and not about dissecting the text."
RobKendall says, "For me, rehearsal is very important. I always practice reading a piece before I go 'Live' with it"
Cahoots says, "Mmmm. I do think presenting and performing are so close as to be almost indistinguishable. But reading suggests that you are reading from a 'script' with maybe less ad-libbing"
Deena says, "Cahoots, yes, or reading from the screen with the audience--pretending that this is a one on one computer session"
komninos says, "Or Kurt reading for pleasure"
kheintz says, "Make that a third mode, Kom."
kheintz says, ";)"
Deena says, "Kurt, yes, I don't think that the 15 minutes is the right place to explain all of the theory behind the work... although I am guilty of trying to do that..."
The housekeeper arrives to remove Julenisse_Guest.
Caitlin says, "As some pieces become more cinematic (flash movies, for example) can we perform them any more than a filmmaker would 'perform' her film rather than just show it?"
RobKendall says, "The explanation should be somewhat entertaining if possible. It's a chance to throw in a few jokes, etc."
Deena gives everyone their personal comics...
Caitlin says, "Do we want to? is it necessary?"
JFK says, " why would we want too?
kheintz says, "It's NOT necessary, Caitlin"

parting shots
Deena says, "Could we sum up with last minute thoughts--what one piece of advice is most important for performing elit?"
Helen says, "Tech check!"
Cahoots says, "Make sure it's perform with a capital P"
Caitlin says, "Put audience before tech"
Deena says, "Understand that the reading is not the same as writing for the screen--take time to craft the performance"
RobKendall says, "Engage the audience"
JFK says, " bye everyone. Thanks for the discussion."
Caitlin says, "I'd love to hear/see all of you read/perform. I hope I have the opportunity."
komninos says, "Have fun and your audience will too"
Salmon says, "Yes, thanks Deena, and everyone, for a great discussion."
kheintz says, "Tailor your text, and the software behind it, to an audience's need for basic rites of theater. This may include reformatting."
it for a theatrical context instead of solo reading."
The housekeeper arrives to remove Jean_Smith.
Salmon tiptoes out.
Helen says, "Thanks all..."
The housekeeper arrives to remove JFK
Everdeen smiles Thanks around.
Deena says, "Thanks all of you guys and thanks to my wonderful guests for their ideas and insights!"
RobKendall says, "Thanks for a great discussion"
runran says, "Bye all"
Caitlin says, "Great ideas, everyone. Thank you. "
Julianne says, "Bye everyone. I 'll be the one in the audience with glowing eyes!"
kheintz says, "Yes, Deena, you're a fab host... It's been wonderful!"
komninos says, "These talks should be longer, how about an all day one on this topic?"
Cahoots bobs a curtsey, "Thanks you all, interesting discussion"
runran has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove runran.
Deena hands round a Guinness to all of her favorite geniuses and to all a good night
kheintz says, "Good to see some good friends out here, too."
MazThing dodges out with all the others outfluxing.
Deena says, "Bows for the performance and thinks that all her guests were fab too!"
Julianne leaves for Second Dimension
kheintz acknowledges Kom's grasp of the depth of this topic.
Deena Cheers for Kom the performance poet!
komninos says, "Kom grasps a Guinness"
Helen says, "You may have a day to go Kom, but it's bedtime for me! Otherwise I 'd love to chat for longer....."
Caitlin cheers, too!
Deena Cheers for Caitlin, Rob, Kurt, Helen, and all!
komninos says, "Bye"
kheintz wonders what goes with Guinness better, Rice Krispies or Corn Flakes...
Caitlin says, "Bye Kurt, bye Deena, Bye Kom -- it's been great, inspiring..."
Helen has disconnected.
Deena says, "The next chat will be March 17 on Incubation topics. I 'll be in Washington DC without the internet, so Helen will run this one.."
RobKendall thanks Kom and Kurt and Deena and the rest for their insights
Deena says, "Have fun all:"
Nicki says, "Thanks everyone. Bye"
kheintz says, "Laterz..."
Caitlin says, "Bye Robert! thank you."
The housekeeper arrives to remove Nicki.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Caitlin.
Cahoots heads back to her PC to try and recover her lost files
The housekeeper arrives to remove komninos.
Cahoots tiptoes out.
The housekeeper arrives to remove kheintz.
The housekeeper arrives to cart Helen off to bed.
The housekeeper arrives to cart Deena off to bed.
The housekeeper arrives to remove RobKendall.

-- End log: Sunday, February 17, 2002 6:05:27 pm CST

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