Chat Transcript: March 17th 2002
Incubation2: the countdown begins

Sunday March 17th (in WebBoard chatroom)
This transcript produced by Helen Whitehead

Incubation2 is the second trAce International Conference on Writing & the Internet. It will be held 15th-17th July 2002 at the Nottingham Trent University.

Organisers, presenters & potential attendees came along to Chat to hear about and discuss some of the issues that will be important at the conference.

Session Start: Sun Mar 17 20:49:25 2002
[21:08] <Helen> So Sue, Incubation is the Second International Conference on Writing for the Internet, and run by trAce. Why did we call it Incubation?
[21:09] <Sue_Thomas> We called it Incubation because right now much of what we all do is about...
[21:09] <Sue_Thomas> incubating new ideas - there is not much solid on the net at the moment!
[21:09] <Sue_Thomas> we wanted to encourage people to talk about ideas
[21:10] <Sue_Thomas> and they certainly did .
[21:10] <Helen> Incubation in 2000 was very successful -- I see several people here today who were at that one
[21:10] <Sue_Thomas> Perhaps they can comment on whether it was incubatory for them!
[21:10] <Helen> Anyone who was at Incubation in 2000 want to say what they liked best about the conference?
[21:10] <Helen> I 'll start - I liked the accommodation and the desserts :)
[21:10] <talanM> The discussion was continuous and diverse!
[21:11] <Sue_Thomas> some good networks were established between writers and artists who were previously isolated
[21:12] <Sue_Thomas> this time around there will be more chances to share and show work
[21:12] <Sue_Thomas> and we have even better lecture theatres facilities - 2 brand new hi-tech lecture halls
[21:12] <talanM> The mix of people was incredible.
[21:12] <talanM> I am sure 2002 will be the same (and better)
[21:13] <cahoots> what would you say is the main desired outcome for the conference?
[21:13] <Sue_Thomas> For those who don't know, Talan is a speaker at Incubation this year
[21:13] <Sue_Thomas> Last time his presentation was one of the most popular
[21:13] <Sue_Thomas> cahoots -- there are several outcomes we hope for
[21:14] <Sue_Thomas> the main one is for writers to share work, ideas, feedback --- and for those activities to produce more of the same..
[21:14] <Sue_Thomas> but also...
[21:14] <Sue_Thomas> there will be people there who don't know much about the medium, and I hope they will come away enlightened...
[21:14] <Helen> I can recommend the new facilities - they're fantastic. When we looked round the lecture theatres we wanted to move in it has such good multimedia and sound!
[21:15] * Mazzy o O (or confused?)
[21:15] <Sue_Thomas> and lastly, I hope we will advance the medium - the understanding and appreciation of new media work
[21:15] *** Nicki has joined #trace
[21:15] <cahoots> ho nicki
[21:15] <Nicki> Hello
[21:15] <Nicki> I've just come in through IRC
[21:15] <Nicki> just downloaded mIRC
[21:15] <Nicki> feel good it worked
[21:15] * cahoots congratulates Nicki heartily on her achievement
[21:15] <Sue_Thomas> it's great isn't it?
[21:16] <Nicki> Now I have options
[21:16] <Sue_Thomas> cahoots - do you plan to come? if so, what do YOU want from Incubation?
[21:16] <cahoots> sue - I 'm Jane in disguise :-) I 'll be running the workshops on MOO
[21:16] <Helen> It is terrific to meet and be inspired by so many people in the flesh who are working on the Web. It was dizzying last time. This time I plan not to sleep to have more time to talk!
[21:17] * Mazzy smiles at Nicki
[21:17] *** Claire_Dinsmore has joined #trace
[21:18] <Sue_Thomas> hi Claire!
[21:18] <Vika> "Hello, Claire
[21:18] <talanM> Claire!
[21:18] *** Glenis_Stott has joined #trace
[21:18] <Sue_Thomas> hi glenis!
[21:18] <Vika> "And Glenis.
[21:18] <Nicki> Hi Glenis
[21:18] <Claire_Dinsmore> hello! Lord it was hard to get in here!
[21:18] <Sue_Thomas> Can I ask everyone now - what do YOU want from Incubation2?
[21:18] <Tori> Helen, there are three or four more people still on board...let me check if they are trying to get in.
[21:18] <Glenis_Stott> Hi made it
[21:18] <Vika> Claire, so it wasn't just me
[21:18] <Claire_Dinsmore> who is Vika?
[21:19] <Helen> Hi Claire
[21:19] <cahoots> I think I have two main objectives for incubation. 1. is to meet some of the people I've met virtually here at trAce and 2. to talk and find out what other people are working on in this field
[21:19] <Claire_Dinsmore> We meet again Helen!
[21:19] <Kate> I just like the idea of seeing/hearing about lots of work and soaking it all up.
[21:20] <Vika> Sue, if I do get there, I'd love to get immersed in the *creative* writing atmosphere, since I do some writing work on the Web but can't in good conscience call it original.
[21:20] *** Kate is now known as Kate_Pullinger
[21:20] <Glenis_Stott> I agree with Kate, I like the idea of soaking it all up
[21:20] *** Vika is now known as Vika_Zafrin
[21:20] <Mazzy> "I suppose I have some vague idea that I might learn more about the breadth of something I might be part of.
[21:20] *** Jenny_Weight has joined #trace
[21:20] *** Glenis_Stott is now known as Glenis
[21:20] <Sue_Thomas> Vika are you saying you'd like to do some practical writing while you're there?
[21:20] <Sue_Thomas> hi jenny !
[21:20] <Jenny_Weight> Sue! My connection seems incredibly slow. I don't know how successful this will be ...
[21:21] *** Tori is now known as Tori_Modera
[21:21] <Helen> Apologies to everyone who has had trouble getting here. We are very pleased to see you at this chat introducing the Incubation2 conference
[21:21] <Sue_Thomas> jenny there have been problems all day
[21:21] <Sue_Thomas> irc is much faster if you have it
[21:21] <Vika_Zafrin> Sue - if there are organized workshops, sure, but it would be good to just hear and see what people are doing creatively.
[21:21] <Jenny_Weight> yes ... I don't have it currently. But anyway it seems that now I 'm here it's ok
[21:22] <Sue_Thomas> Vika - cahoots will be doing some workshops - caheoots can you tell us about them?
[21:22] <Claire_Dinsmore> Yes, it's moving along fine once you're inside
[21:22] * cahoots stands up self consciously and clears her throat
[21:22] <Jenny_Weight> (Hi Claire! Helen!)
[21:22] <Claire_Dinsmore> may I ask who cahoots is?
[21:22] <Helen> I think it's certain that you will all be amazed and inspired by lots of different types of work on the Net
[21:22] <Helen> from beginners reporting first steps to the most advanced people[21:22]
* Tori_Modera passes cahoots a new key for luck.
[21:22] <Claire_Dinsmore> (hi!}
[21:22] <cahoots> hi all. I 'll be running two workshops on collaborative writing in a MOO environment
[21:23] *** cahoots is now known as Jane_Tandy
[21:23] *** Tori_Modera is now known as Everdeen_Tree
[21:23] * Jane_Tandy curtsies nicely to the group
[21:23] <Helen> (Hi Geni!)
[21:23] <Claire_Dinsmore> nice to 'meet' you.
[21:23] <Kate_Pullinger> Wow Ev; those are both great names.
[21:24] <Sue_Thomas> thanks Jane - any more you'd like to say about it?
[21:24] * Everdeen_Tree smiles at Kate.
[21:24] <Sue_Thomas> Talan, would you like to say something about your talk?
[21:24] <Jane_Tandy> I found in my conversations at trAce that there are many people who have vaguely heard of MOO, it seemed to be the right place to teach people more about what a great tool it can be for collaborative working online
[21:24] * Jane_Tandy steps down
[21:24] * Glenis applauds
[21:25] * Jane_Tandy grins at glenis and waves, "didn't see you earlier. hi"
[21:25] <talanM> My talk is titled 'A theory of...[?]' And basically will be looking at how there can be no single theory for literary hypermedia...
[21:25] * Glenis grins and blushes at unknown command
[21:25] <talanM> That the medium is Media/um.... (for those who know me that should sound familiar)
[21:26] <Claire_Dinsmore> Indeed! It would be nice if folks could grasp the amorphous nature of it ....
[21:26] <Jane_Tandy> media/um? I like the sound of that :-)
[21:26] <Jenny_Weight> that sounds good, Talan Will be interesting to see how you structure it (structure is all for me at the moment!)
[21:26] <talanM> Specifications, intent, effect sort of dictate theories... and theories become instant modes of operation.
[21:27] <Helen> what I like about hypermedia is that we can all invent a theory -- one of these days I will have time to develop mine....
[21:27] * Helen thinks she might just about get it started by Incubation3
[21:27] <Claire_Dinsmore> I've been using the term for years - guess I gleaned it from Talan! it's just SO apropos ....
[21:27] <talanM> temporary disposable theories... of the moment...
[21:28] * Helen applauds Talan
[21:28] <Sue_Thomas> Kate Pullinger will also be speaking...
[21:28] <Sue_Thomas> Kate tell us something about your talk
[21:29] <Jenny_Weight> but how to cope with a democracy of many theories, there is a question for me
[21:29] <Helen> a different theory for every hypertext - pick the one that suits your work
[21:29] <Helen> or design a work to suit your theory!
[21:29] <Sue_Thomas> Kate - you're talking about our project, remember?!!
[21:29] <talanM> I don't think it is democratic (of the moment) -- when being put to use... For the application it is about coexistence...
[21:29] * Nicki waves to Mazzy
[21:30] <Vika_Zafrin> Jenny - how is coping with democracy of hyperlit theory different from coping with the democracy of paperlit theory?
[21:30] <Claire_Dinsmore> that was the approach at grad school - you had to have a theory behind your work, and a lot of work actually didn't so ...
[21:30] <talanM> BRB -- I can see the bottom of my coffee cup. :)
[21:30] <Kate_Pullinger> I 'm about to embark on a year-long research project, with trAce, looking at forms of narrative on the web; the project will also map my transition from print-based to mediatric writing. There.
[21:31] <Jenny_Weight> Well I 'm not sure it is ultimately .. but perhaps it's just the culture of 'hyperlit'; I think we're less inclined to reify theories of everything
[21:32] <Mazzy> think theories, theories, they tell me now I have to have a theory to write?
[21:32] <Sue_Thomas> with reference to Kate's talk ---
[21:32] <Sue_Thomas> that is not about theory, but practice
[21:32] <Sue_Thomas> do you think that new media writing has issues about theory Vs/not Vs practice?
[21:33] <talanM> more and more, theory is practice in this media/um....
[21:33] <Helen> So Incubation will suit all levels of engagement. If you want to talk theory you can -- if you want to talk writing practice, you can do that too! The choice will be heartbreaking
[21:33] <Claire_Dinsmore> lol!
[21:33] <Jenny_Weight> I think it's like people who say they aren't political - they are political in support of the status quo. Not having a theory is a theory.
[21:33] <Vika_Zafrin> Sue, Helen - how much of the conference is theory-oriented, and how much is a workshop setting? Or are those two divisible like that?
[21:34] <Claire_Dinsmore> yes Talan - it's in one's creative choice in action, as it were.
[21:34] <Sue_Thomas> Vika you cant divide it like that
[21:34] * Helen nods at Jenny
[21:34] <Sue_Thomas> as Talan says, theory often mixes with practice...
[21:34] <Sue_Thomas> but there will be a real mix of...
[21:34] * Mazzy apologises to Jenny then for lack thereof
[21:34] <Nicki> shouldn't the best theories always lead to practice?
[21:34] <Helen> perhaps that's why hypermedia has trouble engaging a mass audience? because it is inextricably mixed with its theory?
[21:34] <Sue_Thomas> exhibition-type presentations...
[21:35] <Sue_Thomas> theory-based talks...
[21:35] <Sue_Thomas> research results...
[21:35] <Sue_Thomas> discussions..
[21:35] <Sue_Thomas> workshops...
[21:35] <Sue_Thomas> events...
[21:35] <Sue_Thomas> live chat..
[21:35] <Helen> heated discussions in the bar...
[21:35] <Sue_Thomas> and a performed hypertext.
[21:35] * Mazzy gasps at Sue Thomas the human hyperlit menu
[21:35] <talanM> Incubation I was an incredible blend of all of this....
[21:35] <Nicki> and maybe then best practice becomes a theory
[21:35] <Jane_Tandy> or maybe a good theory is what forms the basis of best practice
[21:36] <talanM> Theory becomes a creative enterprise...
[21:36] <Sue_Thomas> So the answer to your question is everything
[21:36] <Sue_Thomas> and---
[21:36] <Sue_Thomas> drumroll...
[21:36] <Sue_Thomas> this year several special extras....
[21:36] <Sue_Thomas> the live drama... yet to be announced but fantastic in its scope...
[21:36] <Sue_Thomas> and...
[21:36] * Jane_Tandy jumps up and down "murder mystery"
[21:36] <Jenny_Weight> Mazzy, I actually don't think you can't have a theory ... if you're a practicing artist / writer. Possibly you don't recognise it as a theory but I 'm sure I could find one that you believed if we sat down and talked for half an hour!
[21:36] <Sue_Thomas> we will have an on-site masseur :)
[21:36] <Helen> well, mystery anyway....
[21:37] <Jane_Tandy> perhaps it was the masseur
[21:37] <Nicki> wot, no murder in the mystery?
[21:37] <Sue_Thomas> nicki - there MAY be a murder - it depends on the mystery
[21:37] <Mazzy> Jenny....surely we could talk for longer than that to explain away what we do?
[21:37] <Claire_Dinsmore> at this point in time possibly. When more folks grasp this slimy beast and the theory becomes more innately embedded in the readers' perception ...
[21:38] *** Kate_Pullinger has left #trace
[21:38] <Nicki> and live music - aren't trAce people performing with instruments?
[21:38] <Jenny_Weight> Mazzy ... I 'm sure half an hour wouldn't exhaust the conversation
[21:38] <Sue_Thomas> I think we need to define theory here
[21:38] * Mazzy smiles at Jenny.
[21:38] <Helen> oh yes, we did mention music at one point!
[21:38] <Sue_Thomas> nicki I know nothing of this! scanner is playing but the live instruments sounds good too
[21:38] <Sue_Thomas> in the bar on Tuesday night after the mystery?
[21:38] <Helen> it was in a chat a few weeks ago (confesses she'd forgotten that one)
[21:38] <Nicki> when we found out how musical we all were
[21:39] <Sue_Thomas> I would like to ask Everdeen and Mazzy to talk about their paper
[21:39] <Nicki> lots of percussionists in turns out
[21:39] <talanM> How can a reading/writing apparatus still so new not have some exposed theoretical aspect...?
[21:39] <Nicki> it turns out
[21:39] * Helen slaps her own wrist and tells herself to be serious
[21:39] <Mazzy> "Well Sue, Randy should be here really.
[21:39] <Mazzy> "But....
[21:39] <Sue_Thomas> he cant get in
[21:39] <Sue_Thomas> he has been mailing me
[21:39] * Mazzy clears her throat and reads a note from Mr. R. Adams "Please misrepresent our project in any way you see fit."
[21:39] <Jane_Tandy> he's on webboard - may be struggling
[21:40] * Jane_Tandy grins
[21:40] * Mazzy smiles at Everdeen. "So, that's a pretty free hand to say what we like"
[21:40] * Mazzy kicks Ev under the table.
[21:41] <Mazzy> "Well...all I would say is...
[21:41] <Mazzy> "whatever extravagant CLAIMS you might have heard...
[21:41] <Mazzy> "or counter-claims...
[21:42] <Everdeen_Tree> our triple your money back guarantee
[21:42] <Mazzy> "I DISCLAIM all responsibility.
[21:42] * Mazzy nods at Ev.
[21:42] <Jenny_Weight> (I've gotta go make my lunch ... I 'm on the way to work ... I 'll be back in 5)
[21:42] <Everdeen_Tree> will be void in the event that user input exceeds the percentage of allocated frim for the interactivity
[21:42] <Helen> Can you tell us at least - you're talking about CLAIMS and it's a web project?
[21:43] <Mazzy> "Well, Helen, that's just a vicious rumour but...
[21:43] * Jane_Tandy catches a frim in her lunchbox for later use
[21:43] * Mazzy grins. "I believe you'd find witnesses you *might* support that claim"
[21:44] <Sue_Thomas> well, you have intrigued us all!
[21:44] <Everdeen_Tree> CLAIMS will ingest ... er ... incorporate users ... so that
[21:44] <Mazzy> "Following up what Jane was saying about using MOOs in writing ... I would say that the team involved (whoever they are) seem to spend a lot of time in a MOO planning a project of some sort (allegedly)
[21:44] <Everdeen_Tree> when CLAIMS leaves Incubation....it will be more than it was when it arrived.
[21:44] <Sue_Thomas> aha!
[21:45] <Helen> I think there's going to be a good deal of contributory collaboration going on at Incubation!
[21:45] * Mazzy remembers what Helen said about the catering arrangements and nods.
[21:45] <Everdeen_Tree> So perhaps we can establish a buy-back booth for the return airplane tickets.
[21:45] *** runran has joined #trace
[21:45] <Sue_Thomas> randy you made it!
[21:45] <Nicki> Randy! - hello
[21:45] <runran> yeah
[21:46] <Everdeen_Tree> Randy....!
[21:46] <Jane_Tandy> so, to sum up, you're claiming you may or may not be at incubation, ingesting frims and possibly cavorting before or after in or around a MOO?
[21:46] <Vika_Zafrin> Hello, Randy.
[21:46] <Glenis> Was it the slush that held you back Randy?
[21:46] <talanM> sorry folks, I have to run..... Bye to all. See some of you soon, and others later....
[21:46] <runran> what's a frim
[21:46] <Sue_Thomas> we've just heard about claims from your coconspirators
[21:46] * Helen apologises weakly for the state of the webboard and its applets
[21:46] <Nicki> You'd do better with potatoes tonight, Helen
[21:46] <Jane_Tandy> a;;are
[21:46] * Everdeen_Tree looks very innocent of any disclosures about frims.
[21:46] <Sue_Thomas> take care Talan
[21:46] <Sue_Thomas> thanks for coming
[21:46] <Helen> Bye Talan
[21:46] <Claire_Dinsmore> Hello Randy! Welcome!
[21:46] <runran> bye Talan
[21:46] <runran> eeek
[21:46] <talanM> hello...goodbye, randy...
[21:46] *** talanM has quit IRC (QUIT: )
[21:46] <Claire_Dinsmore> bye TM
[21:47] <Sue_Thomas> potatoweb?
[21:47] <Glenis> Potato poetry
[21:47] <Nicki> Definitely, Sue
[21:47] <Helen> Some of the other presentations include....
[21:47] * Jane_Tandy hands runran her lunchbox complete with captured frim
[21:47] <Helen> Lizzie Jackson of BBCi about their new talent search....
[21:47] <Helen> Scanner on his work...
[21:47] * Mazzy smiles inscrutably at Randy and leaves him to guess what we claimed the project was.
[21:48] <Helen> We have writing teachers discussing how to teach writing online.....
[21:48] <Helen> collaborators discussing collaborations.....
[21:49] <Helen> lots of pretty colours and sounds on big screens in exhibitions of people's work
[21:49] <Nicki> lots of dressing up
[21:49] <Helen> oh yes, lots of dressing up
[21:49] <Sue_Thomas> but don't forget Helen the live chat with fineartforum, ISEA, ELO, convergence etc
[21:50] <Helen> and drink, and food, and being amazed when you meet people you know REALLY well online and they look nothing like you expected!
[21:50] * Mazzy flounces her flowing curly locks of dark hair at Helen
[21:50] * Helen shakes her finger
[21:51] <Sue_Thomas>Incubation will be fun, but it is also an extremely significant event in UK arts
[21:51] * Nicki nods sagely
[21:51] * Glenis looks impressed
[21:51] <Sue_Thomas> a lot of people will be watching what happens and will take serious note of the discussions
[21:51] <Helen> we've had a few here tonight
[21:51] <Nicki> so it will be serious fun
[21:52] <Sue_Thomas> so remember -- your words at Incubation will be heard beyond the conference - it's a great opportunity to spread the word :)
[21:52] <Helen> OK, we are about to end our chat on the hour. Has anyone got any questions they would like to ask?
[21:52] <Jane_Tandy> when does the early bird registration end?
[21:53] <Sue_Thomas> I 'm really looking forward to hearing so many diverse views
[21:53] <Vika_Zafrin> What is the turnout expected to be like?
[21:53] <Jenny_Weight> (tangentially) I have been thinking a lot about presenting papers and how they should be presented for a net based multimediated work, and how that means different sorts of papers than the ones that have been written and presented in the past with print publication in mind
[21:53] <Sue_Thomas> vika - last time we had about 140/150 - this time we hope for 200
[21:54] <Sue_Thomas> Jane - early bird ends 1st may
[21:54] <Jane_Tandy> thnx - must remember to phone and organise that
[21:54] <Sue_Thomas> jenny that is very important
[21:54] <Jenny_Weight> (I know that wasn't a question, sorry)
[21:54] <Jane_Tandy> jenny, I'd imagine that's fairly fundamental to a lot that will be discussed at Incubation
[21:55] <Sue_Thomas> I have something else that came up at the Sorbonne
[21:55] <Jenny_Weight> I am presenting possibly at a symposium in a few weeks and have decided that to do it justice, to be true to the material, it will be all flash ...(blanches at the work involved)
[21:55] <Sue_Thomas> can I ask your thoughts, everyone?
[21:55] <Vika_Zafrin> Jenny - in Los Angeles?
[21:55] <Jane_Tandy> what, all my thoughts?
[21:55] <Mazzy> "on what?
[21:55] <Sue_Thomas> there was a lawyer there who suggested a notion re copyright
[21:56] <Sue_Thomas> that we get rid of ALL copyright laws and started again...
[21:56] <Jenny_Weight> Vika, unfortunately can't possibly make LA, in Melbourne
[21:56] <Vika_Zafrin> :watches worms wriggle out of can
[21:56] <Sue_Thomas> with everyone having moral rights...
[21:56] <Claire_Dinsmore> Lord, wouldn't that be nice!
[21:56] * Jane_Tandy catches a worm and munches on it reflectively
[21:56] <Sue_Thomas> but not copyright
[21:56] <Helen> I was thinking that. It would be a good way to get attention!
[21:56] <Jenny_Weight> Sue, am currently writing a review of a an MIT Press book on copyright for ebr. Yes huge issues that artists aren't understanding / facing
[21:56] <Sue_Thomas> and that you only assert copyright when someone else wants to make money from your work
[21:56] <Helen> not quite copyleft either
[21:56] <Sue_Thomas> jenny --
[21:56] <Helen> although that is a basis of copyleft
[21:57] <Helen> that people can use the work freely except to make money
[21:57] <Sue_Thomas> the big issue we would have to face is this:
[21:57] <Claire_Dinsmore> Let me tell you, as an editor I really find it a pain, especially with all the quotes from printed works in critical work
[21:57] <Sue_Thomas> that you would NOT be judged by the sale of your work
[21:57] <Claire_Dinsmore> Let me tell you, as an editor I really find it a pain, especially with all the quotes from printed works in critical work
[21:57] <Sue_Thomas> I think many authors do not believe they are valued until they have sold
[21:57] <Sue_Thomas> so would they ever give that up?
[21:57] <Sue_Thomas> what do you think?
[21:58] <Jenny_Weight> unfortunately the corporates will shoot it down. It's a libertarian Vs corporate debate that is definitely raging. Also unfortunately the USA has global power, it seems like it might be able to dictate terms to the rest of the world
[21:58] <Helen> and people don't think you're an author until you've sold a b-word
[21:58] <Jane_Tandy> sue, it's an interesting idea, until you are in the position where you need to pay your rent on the sale of your work
[21:58] <Sue_Thomas> jenny --- the debate is much bigger than that
[21:58] <Helen> Nope, the us cannot dictate what happens on the Net in other countries, no-one country can
[21:58] <Sue_Thomas> it is a personal debate
[21:58] <Mazzy> I think most writers I respect know that financial recompense and worth of writing are...at best only correlated and...in some cases entirely independent of each other
[21:58] <Sue_Thomas> each one of us should face in ourselves
[21:59] *** Nicki has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer)
[21:59] <Sue_Thomas> Jane - maybe if one cant sell ones writing one needs to accept one will always do a paid job as well - as most writers do
[21:59] <Sue_Thomas> it's a question of where we ascribe value
[21:59] <Jenny_Weight> is value only measured in income made?
[21:59] <Mazzy> Sue, that's a practical domestic decision, not to do with the writing.
[22:00] <Sue_Thomas> I am saying that many writers feel they are of no value until they have sold
[22:00] <Claire_Dinsmore> I cannot understand the CR permissions need if one's not making money for a re-print. I mean, it's free advertising, so shouldn't you just be happy with credit?
[22:00] <Sue_Thomas> and this is a problem and an error
[22:00] <Helen> this is another issue, and we should have a separate chat on it another month. Would everyone approve of that? (We are looking for good subjects for chats)
[22:00] <Sue_Thomas> there are some fantastic writers who never sold a word
[22:00] * Mazzy nods to Sue.
[22:00] <Vika_Zafrin> Sue, I was just looking at http://scalzi.com/plwritingadvice.htm
[22:00] * Mazzy remembers not to click on the link in case WebBoard spins her off into oblivion
[22:01] <Vika_Zafrin> yesterday; I suppose it comes down to whether you want to pay your rent with writing.
[22:01] <Jane_Tandy> I think it's a complex issue - definitely deserves a discussion in it's own right
[22:01] <Helen> There will be a log of this soon on the trAce website, so you can see the link from there. (Won't there Claire? :)
[22:01] <Jenny_Weight> I've got to go to work but there are many c.r. issues here that could be profitably discussed. Bye and thanks
[22:01] *** Nicki has joined #trace
[22:01] <Vika_Zafrin> Also, it's forced to be an individual decision: if it is imposed upon a community, lack of copyright will have much the same result as communism
[22:01] <Sue_Thomas> thanks Vika - there's a lot to read there - will look at it later
[22:01] <Sue_Thomas> jenny thanks for getting up so early to be here
[22:02] <Vika_Zafrin> (says this former resident of USSR)
[22:02] <Claire_Dinsmore> we have no power though, we're just artists!
[22:02] *** Jenny_Weight has quit IRC (QUIT: )
[22:02] <Sue_Thomas> oh Claire!
[22:02] <Jane_Tandy> no-one is "just" an artist - what makes you think you have any less power than anyone else?
[22:02] <Helen> OK, time's up, you can carry on talking but you are free to leave, also.
[22:03] <Glenis> have to go, bye
[22:03] *** Glenis has left #trace
[22:03] <Helen> We have been discussing the Incubation2 conference and look forward to seeing a lot of you there
[22:03] <Jane_Tandy> yep, really looking forward to it, everyone
[22:03] <Vika_Zafrin> Thank you for organizing it, Helen, Sue, others
[22:03] *** Jane_Tandy is now known as cahoots
[22:03] <Sue_Thomas> I have to go - am expecting a phone call so will leave in a composed manner rather than hurriedly
[22:03] <Helen> There will be serious and inspiring discussion which will have impact on the UK and international arts community as well as some fun times for writers :)
[22:03] <Sue_Thomas> hope you can all make it
[22:04] <Sue_Thomas> yep Helen, that's right!
[22:04] <Claire_Dinsmore> that was said facetiously : (, with chagrin ...
[22:04] *** Vika_Zafrin is now known as Vika
[22:04] * cahoots waves to sue, night night
[22:04] <Sue_Thomas> night all!
[22:04] <Nicki> night Sue
[22:04] * Sue_Thomas waves to all
[22:04] *** Sue_Thomas has quit IRC (QUIT: )
[22:04] <Claire_Dinsmore> bye
[22:05] * Mazzy waves to all those on the way out
[22:05] <Claire_Dinsmore> I meant we are not the powers that be/make laws. Them, you know?
[22:06] <Helen> mm but we vote for the people that do!
[22:07] <Claire_Dinsmore> I used to lobby in Albany - our votes count for very little next to the $$ folks
[22:07] * cahoots nods to Claire, in a way, but we are no less powerful than anyone else in respect of making laws. And if we care enough about something, there are probably enough of us to have some clout
[22:07] <Vika> Well, nobody is required by law to register copyright on their work. So, as a writers' community, people can certainly institute it de facto
[22:07] <Everdeen_Tree> especially if one has the ability to use words well
[22:08] <Helen> and a press contacts database
[22:08] <Vika> If it's a question of morals, why get entangled with law at all?
[22:08] <Helen> I have to go....
[22:08] <Helen> Late late here!
[22:09] <Vika> Goodnight, Helen
[22:09] <Mazzy> Vika I 'm not certain but I think that unless you...
[22:09] <Claire_Dinsmore> okay Helen, see you tomorrow
[22:09] <Helen> Talk to you all again soon I hope!
[22:09] <Mazzy> relinquish copyright you still have it.
[22:09] <Helen> some sooner than others :)
[22:09] <Helen> Bye
[22:09] <Mazzy> without registering it.
[22:09] <Nicki> see you Helen
Session Close: Sun Mar 17 22:09:27 2002

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