Introductions
Deena
says, "Hmmm... it looks like Jim is having technical problems,
but we can start with this chat on music and the muse anyway...could
you guys introduce yourselves?"
bonsai_bob says, "Jim is in Toronto, isn't he?"
Deena says, "Right. He was just getting back from a trip,
so there may be problems."
bonsai_bob says, "Haven't heard a peep from him in a week."
bonsai_bob says, "I could phone and see if he's home, if
you'd like."
Deena says, "That would be great!! please do!!"
bonsai_bob says, "Done, be right back"
bonsai_bob says, "He will be here soon."
David_Braden says, "Can anyone give me a synopsis of Jim's
work. I know it involves computer games and language and sound,
but that's all."
Sue says, "David look at http://www.vispo.com/"
Sue says, "David can you see that?"
David_Braden says, "Yes, I got the url, and I've bookmarked
it before, but just haven't had the chance to explore."
Helen says, "Vispo means visual poetry doesn't it -- but
he's now moved quite a lot into sound."
bonsai_bob says, "Vismu."
Helen says, "Thanks Bob"
Sue says, "Ok well I don't recommend anyone to click on
Nio."
Helen says, "Why not?"
Everdeen winks at R.
Sue says, "It just grabbed my whole system."
Helen says, "I don't like things that do that." bonsai_bob
is now known as runran.
Everdeen says, "A bonsai by any other name...."
Helen says, "Ah...."
Deena
says, "Jim Andrews is a writer, programmer, visual poet,
visual poet, and essayist. His interactive audio work is at
www.vispo.com/vismu
and his most recent piece has considerable interactive audio
at www.vispo.com/arteroids.
Prior to becoming digital in 95, he produced a literary radio
show for six years and also organized and hosted a live poetry
venue in his
home of Victoria."
Deena says, "Sorry, I am having trouble getting Jim's bio
in here."
runran says, "Not as hard as actually getting Jim in here
;-)"
Deena says, "But many works use sound and music--What works
have you encountered where sound makes a difference?"
Nicki says, "I'm being entertained by Nio."
Sue says, "Ah thanks nicki"
David_Braden says, "Thanks, that give me a good frame of
reference."
Nicki says, "Glad I've got a windows button on my keyboard
to find my way back here, though."
runran says, "Hello david [randy here], glad you could
make it."
David_Braden says, "I think I found Jim's website when
I had a little less processing power and speed."
David_Braden
says, "Hi Randy, this MOO thing is pretty neat-o."
Deena says, "Hi Jim, we are talking about electronic writing
and how music and sound fits into..."
Deena says, "Could you guys introduce yourselves again?"
Deena says, "I'm Deena, sometimes host and all time hypertext/new
media addict."
Helen says, "I am Helen and I have only used minimal sound/music/voice
in my work, but I would like to know how to do more"
Everdeen
says, "Everdeen Tree, in Houston."
Sue says, "I'm Sue Thomas of trAce,
musically ignorant."
David_Braden says, "I am David in Oakland and I create
sound poems on the computer."
MazThing is Pauline Masurel, short fiction writer and once upon
a time occasional cellist.
Nicki says, "Hi I'm Nicki Hastie, and know little about
music and the web apart from making rude sounds."
Deena says, "Welcome to all our writers and listeners ...
good to know who is here"
Jim
and radio and interactive sound
Jim
Andrews arrives.
Jim Andrews says, "Hi, Jim here, sorry I'm late."
Deena says, "Hi Jim, welcome!"
Sue says, "Hi Jim"
runran says, "Did you get a coffee Jim."
Jim Andrews says, "The coffee is brewing."
Deena hands Jim a cup of coffee.
Deena hands round coffee and earphones and eyephones to all.
Deena
says, "Jim, you were a literary talk show host for 6 years
on radio and had an extensive audio background. How has that
affected the way that you see your writing?"
Jim Andrews says, "Well the radio show taught me a lot."
Jim Andrews says, "I met writers, critics."
Jim Andrews says, "And was introed to the star making literary
machinery."
Jim Andrews says, "Anyway, I met the money."
Deena says, "What is starmaking literary machinery?"
Jim Andrews says, "And I didn't like the money. So I vowed
to never be a pro artist."
Jim Andrews says, "Now here I am."
Deena cheers for non pro. artists.
About Nio
Deena says, "Jim, could you say a bit about Nio?"
Deena says, "We've been peeking at Nio"
Helen says, "We should look at David's work too...."
Helen says, "David, type @URL and your URL and it'll open
up."
David_Braden shares a URL: soundpoems.htm
David_Braden says, "I'm sorry I have to leave, this was
just getting interesting. Thanks Randy for cluing me in and
for the warm welcomes! "
Everdeen waves goodbye to David Sound and music to tell a story.
Deena says, "Jim, all, I'd like to explore the relationship
between sound and text and meaning. How can we use sound and
music too?"
Deena says, "How can we use sound and music to tell a story?"
Deena says, "I think that sound can underlie a story, and
we can get more meaning and contradiction
when there is sound there."
Helen says, "It's an obvious part of a multimedia work."
Jim Andrews says, "Yes, it's obvious but rarely used."
Nicki says, "I think sound is rarely used because people
don't know how to or don't have the tools to
create original material."
JimAndrews
says, "Why is this not going through?"
Deena says, "Jim, are you using a quote mark before your
text?"
Jim Andrews says, "No"
Jim Andrews says, "Should I?"
Deena says, "Yes, to talk you need to preface stuff with
a quotation mark."
Deena
says, "I have been hooking up with folks in flashkit and
other places who make sound."
Deena says, "But it is difficult to create. I love Nio
because it is purely interactive sound."
Jim Andrews says, "Thanks, Deena."
Helen says, "I think it's not used creatively because the
tools aren't there yet in the way they are for graphics/animation
- to add sound people have to come off the webpage and listen
to a separate plugin."
Sound
and poetry
Deena says, "How does sound add to a multi media work?
Is it on a purely emotive level or..."
Jim Andrews says, "And when used, it is usually like a
poetry reading."
Jim Andrews says, "Depart from the poetry reading."
Jim Andrews says, "Depart from the reading."
Deena says, "How do you mean, Jim? When sound is used it
is like a poetry reading? in what sense?"
Jim Andrews says, "Well, don't read stuff."
The
housekeeper arrives to cart Sue off to bed.
Deena says, "Jim, I think we missed something there. What
do you mean by we don't read stuff?"
Deena says, "I think some of your text is missing ...could
you scroll up and repaste?"
Jim Andrews says, "I mean don't record a straight reading."
Helen says, "That's boring."
Helen says, "But users seem to want it -- they can't read
and want it read to them!"
Deena says, "Ahh, so the sound itself is not a straight
reading? In Nio, you can mix various sounds to create new sounds--kind
of like we mix text to create new texts.."
Jim Andrews says, "You can tell when someone is reading."
runran has disconnected.
Deena says, "Well, we can set up default readings..."
Jim Andrews says, "They usually aren't fully there."
Helen says, "Are people being bounced?"
Deena says, "Yep, I think the moo is flaking out again
...but we will hold on"
Deena hands around moo hooks to all.
Editor's note: this was a rocky chat with
poor online connections. Arrivals and departures are not necessarily
recorded.
Deena says, "Hmmm... so if someone is reading it isn't
a full understanding of the material?"
Jim Andrews says, "It's sort of like performance."
Jim Andrews says, "Also, be very open to experimentation,
because if we don't know what will suffice, experimentation
is often, oddly, a way into what we want."
Best
format for sound
Helen says, "Anyone like to recommend the best format for
music or sound on a web page? I used to use real audio, but
I'd like a sound that streams without needing a separate player
- is there such an animal?"
Deena says, "How do you create text and multimedia with
sound? How do you use sound to influence meaning?"
Jim Andrews says, "Cut up sounds."
Jim Andrews says, "William S. Burroughs said that 'When
you cut tape, the future leaks out'."
Deena says, "I like that. And Nio gives readers a way to
cut tape, to experiment for themselves. The sound creative process."
Deena says, "Jim, how do you create a piece? Do you have
an end goal in mind, or do you experiment to see what you can
come up with?"
Jim Andrews says, "With Nio, I had the sound first--16
sounds that worked together."
Deena says, "Jim, all where do you think the future of
sound and multimedia is? How can we work with musicians and
others to experiment and create?"
Jim Andrews says, "With Arteroids, I had the piece before
the sound."
Jim Andrews says, "Hi Sue!"
Deena says, "So it depends on what you 'Get first'."
Sue smiles at Jim Andrews.
Jim Andrews says, "I know I will end up with sound and
interactive visuals."
Deena says, "Randy, we were talking about how you put together
work-- experimentation and feeling a way and getting pieces
of it."
Inner
clocks
Jim Andrews says, "My clock is wonky."
Deena hands Jim an interactive clock
runran says, "Your inner clock??"
Jim Andrews says, "Yes, inner clock."
Deena passes around magic inner clocks and eyes for all.
Jim Andrews says, "Been on the road, got home yesterday."
Deena says, "Yeah, traveling can be tiring!"
Jim Andrews says, "My apologies for being late."
Deena is glad Jim is here to share ideas with us
Sound
and readers and vision
Deena says, "Jim do you see sound and visuals interacting
with readers in the same way."
Jim Andrews says, "I just go with what I have ideas for
at the time."
Deena says, "Jim, all, what sound/visual/text pieces do
you enjoy and recommend to others?"
Deena says, "I like what Marjorie Luesebrink does as she
underlies a text with sound."
Jim Andrews says, "I have a links page at http://vispo.com/misc/links.htm,
and also there are links in the Nio "About" essay,
at the bottom of the essay."
Jim Andrews says, "Electrica is fascinating."
Jim Andrews says, "Pianographique"
Jim Andrews says, "Squid Soup"
Jim Andrews says, "Yaap Blonk's mouth organ."
Editor's
note: go to the links webpage first to see Jim's comments on
these works.
Deena says, "I will have to look those up, Jim. Are these
mostly sound pieces?"
Jim Andrews says, "They are all interactive sound pieces."
Jim
Andrews says, "I am experimenting in Nio with sequences
and layers of synched sound and synched vis."
runran says, "What I like particularly about Jim's work
is the thought behind it, watching the progression from idea
to fullblown piece, and Jim is very generous in this regard,
posting his works in progress."
Deena says, "Yes, Randy, it really helps to see the unfolding
and the progression Hoorah for people who put works in progress
up!"
Delivering
sound
Helen says, "How do you deliver sound? How do you produce
sound that is small enough digitally and then add it to the
piece?"
Deena says, "Helen, I have been using mpegs and wav files
in flash, there are special ways to compress sound, just like
there are ways to compress images into jpegs and gifs."
Sue says, "Jim - I have a question"
Jim Andrews says, "OK Sue."
Sue says, "You used to work in radio, right? Do you find
frustrating issues of sound quality on the web compared with
the radio studio?"
Jim Andrews says, "Well, knowledge of two basic things
is necessary: how to record and how to compress."
Helen says, "So you have to already know about synthesizers
and keyboards and ways to produce sound BEFORE you move into
media to do it properly? Like knowing photoshop before you move
onto making web-pages."
Jim
Andrews says, "A bad initial recording is hard to polish."
Jim Andrews says, "And knowing what your particular sound
can handle in terms of compression and still being OK is important,
which is just experimenting with it."
Deena says, "Yes, that makes sense. It is easier to work
with someone or borrow clips on the web (www.flashkit.com
has loops and links to artists who can provide more material...)"
Jim
Andrews says, "Different compression settings."
Sue says, "Jim, you're saying that a grounding in basic
sound recording can make a big difference?"
Jim Andrews says, "So, no, not frustrating."
Jim Andrews says, "Well, sound recording is just technique."
Jim Andrews says, "But it helps."
Sue says, "Hmm thanks"
Experimenting
in sound
Deena says, "Jim, how can new media writers learn about
sound techniques?"
Jim Andrews says, "I think the big thing is experimentation."
Jim Andrews says, "Being open to the random, for instance,
which is a great source of unexpected
inspiration."
Deena hands round random openers for all
Jim Andrews says, "I haven't seen too much on basic recording
on the Web."
Helen says, ""Experimentation avoids those "Clichés"
like photoshop filters and flash techniques that
everybody uses... I expect it's the same in sound and certainly
true that most people are unoriginal in
their use of it!"
Deena says, "Jim, is experimentation a big part of any
sound composition? Or is that more so for new media?"
Deena says, "Experimenting is wonderful visually in photoshop
and textual."
Helen
says, "You're certainly an inspiration, Jim"
Jim Andrews says, "Thanks, Helen, so is your work at trAce."
Deena says, "TrAce is a good place for experimenters in
all of these levels."
Jim Andrews says, "The idea is simple: don't peak the levels
too much, but don't be way under the peak too much."
Deena says, "What are peak levels?"
Helen says, "I can relate to that...."
Helen says, "I like the fun in your sounds."
Helen says, "Peak levels - in the music/sound editing software?"
Jim Andrews says, "Just have an eye on the levels before
you record. I don't want to stress this though, over having
fun."
Helen says, "Ah - on the recording device!"
Experimenting
leads
runran says, "Helen, put Jim's arteroids on the big theatre
screen and play there ... it's quite something."
Deena says, "Jim, all, Where do you think the experimenting
and sound/Where is this convergence of sound, image, and language
leading?"
Jim Andrews says, "New forms of music."
Jim Andrews says, "New forms of cinema."
Jim Andrews says, "New forms of story telling."
Jim Andrews says, "New forms of performance."
Jim Andrews says, "New forms of poetry."
Deena says, "Can you speculate on these new forms?"
Helen says, "Better integration of sound so it's not separate
but integral to works (like the best currently)."
Deena says, "I wonder if we will have a new taxonomic system
or if each work will be a class in itself..."
Jim Andrews says, "Yes"
Deena says, "If we are breaking so many boundaries and
rules that we will not be able to make other rules and boundaries?"
Polyartistry:
multiple media and multimedia
Jim Andrews says, "Someone said that 'multiple media' is
different from 'multimedia'."
Deena says, "Hmm...how do you see the two differently?"
Jim Andrews says, "Multimedia is where there's strong relation
between media."
Deena says, "Where sound converges with text to add layers
of meaning, contradict, etc. "
Jim Andrews says, "The poly artist comes home."
Sue says, "Say more about the poly artist"
Deena hands round polynomials for all the polyartists.
Jim Andrews says, "There have been pre web poly Artists"
Jim Andrews says, "Kostelanetz"
Jim Andrews says, "Burroughs"
Jim Andrews says, "Lori Anderson"
Sue says, "I don't know Kostlanetz"
Jim Andrews says, "Laurie Anderson"
Sue says, "What does all this say about the multiple skills
people seem to need to do this work?"
Deena says, "Sue, I think we need to work together--to
pool our strengths and skills."
Sue says, "Deena - you mean collaboration / production
teams ?"
Deena says, "Yep, I think it is hard to be a single polyartist
(Blake, Rosetti come to mind)."
Helen says, "I have to go... will have to read the rest.
Thanks for coming Jim"
Sue says, "Laurie :)"
Jim Andrews says, "Thanks Helen."
Deena
hands round inner clocks that tell the time.
Deena says, "We are about out of official time, but any
last thoughts on poly artists, on merging music and the muse?"
Jim Andrews says, "I think a sense of composition with
multiple media into multimedia is a matter of just working with
multiple media over time."
Jim Andrews says, "And practicing putting them together."
Jim Andrews says, "The more you work with multiple media,
the more chance you have of making multimedia."
Deena says, "I really like that distinction Jim--you've
given us a lot of thought and inspiration."
Time to practice
Deena says, "Yes, we need to give ourselves a couple of
decades to practice with the new possibilities in multiple and
multi and poly media."
Sue says, "This has interesting implications for creative
skills."
Jim Andrews says, "No, a couple of decades is not required."
Jim Andrews says, "But working with multiple media will
take you there."
Everdeen says, "And doing all this with a sense of experimentation,
of fun, of play....?"
Deena says, "Hmmm...Jim, how much time do you think we
need ;)"
Jim Andrews says, "Until you hear voices."
Deena hands round inner radios for better reception
runran says, "A couple of years, eh, and really, that's
not very long in terms of commitment."
Deena says, "You are probably right. But I think we as
a whole need a lot of time to absorb, to learn
how to read the multimedia and the multiple media."
Synthesis
of voices
Jim Andrews says, "In radio, the last thing I got was a
sense of composition"
Jim Andrews says, "Beyond writing."
Jim Andrews says, "Started to hear voices"
Jim Andrews says, "I.e., composition in the head of multiple
media or single media."
Deena says, "And when the voices converge you can hear
a symphony?"
Jim Andrews says, "Experiencing a piece in the head Before
it is made."
Sue says, "Can you compare this to experience of a musical
composer?"
Deena says, "As Beethoven heard his symphonies even when
he was deaf..."
Jim Andrews says, "And then making something very different,
necessarily, from what one had in mind by being open to the
random, for instance."
Jim Andrews says, "Thanks, Randy."
Lasting
impressions
The housekeeper arrives to remove runran and cart Helen off
to bed.
Jim Andrews says, "Good housekeeper!"
Jim Andrews says, "Busy!"
Deena says, "Thanks so much for coming all!"
Sue says, "Jim I have enjoyed our talk."
Jim Andrews says, "Me too."
Everdeen says, "Thanks for the interesting talk!"
Sue says, "A lot to think about."
Deena says, "Yes, this has provided a lot of fuel for thought..."
Deena says, "Thank you very much for coming and sharing
with us. "
Jim Andrews says, "Thank you, Deena."
Deena says, "I am looking forward to experimenting with
those interactive sound pieces."
Jim Andrews says, "There are good links at
http://vispo.com/misc/links.htm"
Deena
says, "I will have the log up sometime this week, with
those links."
Deena hands round a parting glass of genius to all
Jim Andrews says, "Thanks for having me, Deena."
Sue says, "Thanks deena, Jim, I have to go"
Deena says, "Thanks Jim."
Sue waves.
Jim Andrews says, "Thanks to all for coming."
Deena says, "See you guys later..."
Sue has disconnected.
Deena has disconnected.
Jim Andrews says, "OK."
Jim Andrews says, "Anybody here?"
Everdeen smiles at Jim
Nicki puts up a tiny hand Afterglow
Everdeen says, "For a few minutes more.....until grocery
shopping calls."
Jim Andrews says, "Hi Everdeen, Nicki."
Nicki says, "Hi Jim"
Everdeen says, "I was particularly glad to hear you mention
the aspect of fun in experimentation."
Jim Andrews says, "What are you two up to?"
Nicki says, "I'm going to have a play with Nio later"
Jim Andrews says, "Are you working with sound?"
Nicki says, "No, but I'd like to know more about it."
Everdeen has only consumed sound on the web.
Jim Andrews says, "What are you working with?"
Everdeen says, "But did some instructional "Things"
with sound backgrounds in the 80's"
Jim Andrews says, "Sound backgrounds?"
Everdeen says, "Playing with sounds and music as background
support to informational."
Jim Andrews says, "The question there, to me, would be
how to go between background and foreground with the sound."
Everdeen says, "YES!"
Everdeen says, "That was always a conflict"
Everdeen smiles
Jim Andrews says, "Background and foreground changing is
good."
Everdeen says, "Keep them on their toes"
Everdeen winks
Everdeen says, "Sorry, time for the grocery run...look
forward to see you again soon."
Jim Andrews says, "Just recording sound and then cutting
it is interesting."
Jim Andrews says, "Thanks for coming, Nicki."
Nicki says, "Thank you"
Nicki says, "I'm interested in what you said about multimedia
and multiple media"
Nicki says, "I hope to explore your work some more."
Jim Andrews says, "Thanks, Nicki"
Jim Andrews says, "What is your URL?"
Everdeen goes home.
Nicki says, "My URL is
www.nickihastie.demon.co.uk"
Nicki says, "Not a lot of sound there."
Nicki says, "One small bit incorporated into a swf file."
Jim Andrews says, "OK, I have copied it."
Nicki says, "And one poem."
Jim Andrews says, "I will check it out."
Nicki says, "Thanks, Jim - see you again."
Nicki goes home.
Jim Andrews has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Jim Andrews.
trAcELO arrives in a choral suite.
--
End log: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 5:14:48 pm
CDT
