Coming
in
Helen says, "Hi Rob" trAcELO says, "Hi all"
trAcELO says, "Helen, I am going to relog in as me..."
Rob Kendall says, "Hi, Helen"
Helen says, "OK, I'll hang around here....."
trAcELO has disconnected. Deena arrives. Deena shimmers into a
new identity
Rob Kendall says, "Hi Deena"
Helen says, "Welcome back Deena"
Everdeen saunters in.
Helen says, "Hi Everdeen"
Everdeen says, "Hello Helen"
Deena passes around cookies and ice tea and ice-cream...
Jill opens the door, looks around the room, finding you to smile
to. Jill says, "Hello :)"
Everdeen smiles thanks to Deena
Deena says, "This is better--as me I can see who is coming
in the door and greet them!"
Deena
welcomes everyone
Jill waves happily to everyone. Jill smiles greeting
Rob Kendall says, "Hi Jill"
Deena says, "Hi Jill and Rob, I have the webshow ready
to go"
Jill says, "Excellent. I'm on a borrowed computer and for
some reason the web interface won't work, so I'm in text only,
but I'm sure I'll manage to follow you :)"
Everdeen says, "Rob Hello!"
Rob Kendall smiles at Jill
minimusW arrives. minimusW says, "Hi Deena, Rob, Wes Chapman
here"
Deena says, "Hey wes, good to see you here!" Rob Kendall
says, "Oh hi wes. I wondered who you were"
Jill says, "Hello wes! nice to see you :)"
Everdeen smiles hello Jill
Deena displays slide #1 on WhatIsIt?:
|
What
are we talking about?
This
is a new landscape, where even basics like definitions
are not yet settled--we are using terms like "electronic
literature, new media literature, netwurk, hypertext,"
and more to describe a rapidly growing phenomenon. There
are many arguments about what this field/genre/new art
form is, and we won't settle those here today.
Just
for convenience, I would like to say that we are talking
about literature that goes beyond traditional linear books.
Electronic literature is usually on a computer (and these
days, is mostly on the web). There are lots of exceptions
to this, but I hope that this short chat gets you interested
in exploring this field and its wonderful new possibilities
further.
I
am going to provide a short introduction to the field
in the right side of your chat screen. You can click on
the links here to open up these works and explore. The
lecture will also be at http://www.eliterature.org/com/archives/htintro.html
so you can go back and see these works at any time.
|
minimusW
says, "Hi all"
Deena says, "Hi minimus! welcome to the trAce Eliterature
chat on what eliterature is"
Deena says, "Can everyone see the "What are we talking
about on the screen? This is an introduction to electronic literature
to introduce our chat and get us started"
minimusW says, "I've got it, no problem""
MazThing says, "Unfortunately I'm using a MUD client but....I'll
just listen along, thanks, Deena."
MazThing smiles warmly around.
Introduces
guests
Deena says, "Thanks for being our guests today, Jill Walker
and Robert Kendall, readers and writers par excellence"
Helen says, "Hello Jill"
Jill bows to Deena in thanks.
Jill smiles hello
Jill nods yes, I see it.
MazThing pops in.
Rob Kendall smiles at MazThing
Deena says, "It is always so fun to uncover identities
in here..."
Deena hands round party masks and Victorian fancy ball dresses
minimusW says, "Hi Jill, sorry, slow on uptake""
Jill dons her tiger mask.
Deena passes out more beer and hands Jill a nice warm cup of
mile for her tiger suit
Everdeen wants a nice warm cup of mile....none of those kilometres!
Deena quickly recovers and gets milk for Jill
Everdeen smiles at Deena
Jill laughs
Rob Kendall wonders what to do with his ball dress
minimusW prefers a less revealing ball dress
Easty
arrives
Deena says, "Hi Easty, we are settling in and introducing
ourselves. I am Deena Larsen, a hypertext addict and cohost
here..."
Deena says, "A big welcome to Rob Kendall and Jill Walker,
our guests today"
Jill says, "And I'm Jill Walker, a hypertext lover and
guest ;)"
Rob Kendall says, "I'm Rob Kendall, director of the ELO
Electronic Literature Directory and hypertext/Flash poet"
MazThing belatedly admits to being Pauline Masurel, a fiction
writer who also participates in various writing activities online.
Easty
disconnects
Rob Kendall says, "I think Easty just went west"
Deena says, "Yes, I see people disconnecting and I am wondering
if we have a disconnector"
Helen says, "A disconnector?"
Deena says, "A bad Gremlin that runs around pulling plugs"
Flashy
subjects
Helen
says, "Does anyone work in wliterature these days and NOT
Flash?"
minimusW says, "Wliterature"?"
Deena says, "Why literature?"
Jill says, "Or web literature?"
Helen
says, "Anyway I'll save it for question time later!"
Rob Kendall says, "Helen, yes there are still a lot of
text-only folks out there in elit"
RobKendall says, "I think that most linear Flash poetry
is generally more accessible than hypertext. I now start my
students with animate flash poems, because they are conceptually
less "Far out" than hypertext"
Helen says, "However, I do think that Flash is a bit of
a red herring - I'd hate people to think that elit = Flash -
once creators start with Flash they rarely go back to other
technologies and we'll end up with a situation of Flash = Web"
Start
with the simple
Helen
says, "OK, I am looking for a nice simple introduction
to eliterature - interesting pieces that show off what's possible
but that beginners can understand without having to be post-modernists.....and
I always want the writer to be accessible and
available to chat to me and my beginners. Whom do I pick?"
Deena
says, "Good question, Helen. I hope I have some of the
answers here..." Deena displays slide #1 on WhatIsIt?:
<http://www.eliterature.org/com/archives/htintro1.html>.
Rob Kendall says, "I think deena made a list of elit pieces
that work well as introductions to the genre, right Deena?"
Deena says, "Yeah, the whole list and slideshow should
show up in a new window"
Deena shares a URL: <http://www.eliterature.org/com/archives/htintro.html>.
Helen says, ""That's the kind of thing ...."
minimusW
says, "I'm wondering...is there a contradiction between
wanting a sample text to be accessible and wanting it to be
an introduction to the field? Like it or not--and I do both--most
HT's ARE experimental and difficult.""
Helen says, "The Unknown I must admit is always fun"
Helen says, "More accessible than some?"
Helen
says, "I like to think Wes that they aren't mutually exclusive,
but it does seem to be that those who work in elit are also
those who are experimenting with new kinds of content."
minimusW says, "I think in ten years or so the disjunction
between accessible and representative won't be a problem...right
now, though, there has to be a considerable motivation to climb
the learning curve. One motivation is that the form allows for
experimentation.""
Helen says, "Wes you're right"
Deena
says, "I am stalling for a minute as people come in...I
advertised this far and wide in the writing community, so I
think some folks not used to the lingua site are trying to get
in..."
laird arrives.
Jill smiles at Laird
laird says, "Boy, it was hard finding this place..."
Deena says, "Welcome laird! What was the difficulty?"
Jill says, "Well, I'm glad you got here laird!"
minimusW says, "Hi laird"
laird says, "I ran an enCore site perhaps two years ago,
and I want to start another one up but couldn't remember the
exact name. Looking for "Web moo" tracked down a billion
web/woo projects, all long dead, and no links to encore."
Jill says, "Ah, it is hard to find places when you can't
remember the address..."
laird says, "So I had to rummage around, chasing links
everywhere, until I stumbled onto encore"
Deena says, "I am glad you found us!"
laird says, "Yes, it would have been easier if I'd remember
the exact name. still, off that yahoo and google don't return
a link here."
Deena says, "Hmmm...yes, I should tell folks to search
under Lingua Moo"
Everdeen ponders the number of MOOs in the web
laird says, "I'd suggest, at the least, that somebody should
add an entry in their web directory under MOO for encore"
Helen says, "TrAce and ELO both have links about the chat
on their front pages"
Deena says, "Good point, I don't have a link to encore
on the chat, just to the web interface"
MazThing gingerly offers that the best list of moos she knows
is at: http://moolist.yeehaw.net/
laird says, "So has anyone tried running MOO under MacOS
X?"
Impressionist
Guest arrives.
Deena says, "Welcome impressionist guest"
Deena says, "Laird and Impressionist, would you like to
introduce yourselves?"
Deena says, "I am Deena Larsen, hypertext addict and cohost
of the trAce eliterature chats..."
Impressionist_Guest says, "Hi, what an odd name I have!
I'm actually Elizabeth (James) -- used to have an i.d. Here
but I've let it lapse."
Deena says, "Hi Elizabeth! those blackbirds have now been
joined by a big bobcat in my backyard, so pictures are more
problematic..."
Jill says, "I think you can rename yourself by typing @rename
me to Whatever, Elizabeth"
Approaches
to hypertext
Deena
says, "I do have slides prepared for folks who are not
familiar with electronic literature...should we go through them
anyway?"
Helen says, "Go with the slides Deena"
Deena displays slide #2 on WhatIsIt?:
<http://www.eliterature.org/com/archives/htintro2.html>.
|
Read
through themes and connections
Rather
than reading from page one, page two, page three and so
on till the end, these works provide jumping off places,
or links, for connections. This sets up a different dynamic
for the tale. In Jackie Craven's Changing
Room, for example, readers follow a tangled skein
of character's and weave in and out of different stories
by clicking on links. The story is set up so that you
cannot read a single character through to the end--as
you read you see how characters are interconnected.
The
Unknown, by a group of unknown writers, is a funny
tale of a book tour gone, well, somewhat awry. You can
read through this by clicking on links to other connected
pieces. When the Unknown read, they ding a bell to signal
a link, and the audience can shout out if they want to
visit that link rather than finish the screen they are
on.
|
Deena
says, "Yes,this screen shows some typical hypertexts with
links...I tried to list the accessible elit here, stuff that
I like and think is fun, and others can get into quickly...."
RobKendall says, "Wes, there are so many different approaches
to hypertext. I think that accessible approaches can be just
as valid (often) as being representative of the field."
minimusW says, "Oh yes I completely agree. I'd like to
see FAR MORE accessible elit--and the greatest possible tolerance
among all of us for different kinds of elit.""
Helen says, "Yes sure"
Deena says, "Ok, here is the next..."
RobKendall says, "I think a lot of the so-called inaccessibility
of
Hypertext simply lies in software interfaces that haven't yet
matured."
Deena displays slide #3 on WhatIsIt?:
<http://www.eliterature.org/com/archives/htintro3.html>.
Deena displays slide #4 on WhatIsIt?:
Helen says, "We mustn't be so snooty about beginners either,
just because they are trying things that others have tried before.
The form of the novel has been tried before but no-one is laughed
out for re-using it"
minimusW says, "Helen I totally agree"
minimusW
says, "I lost my slides somehow"
Deena displays slide #5 on WhatIsIt?:
<http://www.eliterature.org/com/archives/htintro4.html>.
Deena says, "Ahhh, there they are"
|
Infuse
imagery
Peter
Howard's Rainbow
Factory uses both imagery and animation to get the
point across. You can explore the factory in any direction
just by clicking on the windows.
M.D.
Coverley takes readers on tours of incredible vistas with
her work. The imagery helps readers choose where to go
and steer through ancient and modern mysteries in Egypt
in The
Book of Going Forth by Day. By the way, this work
is being written on the internet--another new aspect of
electronic literature as readers see the work unfold in
a sophisticated weblog. For a shorter but no less intriguing
read, try Life
in the Chocolate Mountains. As MD Coverley says, the
reader's job is to assemble the pieces. In both these
works, the author lays out an imagistic world for readers
to discover to recover the story...
Note:
These works may take a while to load, but are worth waiting
for.
|
Margaret,
historical, and jeansmith arrive
Jill says, "Welcome margaret!"
Deena says, "Welcome Jean and margaret, we are quickly
going through slides that list some fun eliterature"
Historical Guest arrives.
jeansmith says, "Hello"
Jill says, "Hello !"
Deena says, "Welcome historical, we are going through some
slides that list electronic literature possibilities. The ones
here are flash and very image intensive, but worth the wait."
Deena displays slide #6 on WhatIsIt?:
minimusW says, "Maybe we should pick one and focus on it?
It's hard to read and converse at the same time""
Deena says, "True enough, Wes."
Deena says, "I was hoping to show these so that folks can
come back and pick up the books and pieces..."
minimusW says, "Yes, good idea."
Going
back to flash
minimusW
says, "I like Flash for some things, but it sure makes
leisurely narrative difficult--if not impossible""
Everdeen nods agreement with Helen about danger of FLASH-mind-set.
RobKendall says, "Helen, I think there are a lot of different
approaches you can take with flash. it's not really a monolithic
medium -- especially if you're willing to program in actionscript."
Everdeen muses that it's really a matter of recognizing FLASH
as a medium or a tool, rather than a definitive aspect.
RobKendall says, "Flash can also be combined with other
technologies. A lot of people add a few flash pages to long
html hypertexts. I even have a bit of flash in Clues."
minimusW says, "Everdeen, no, I don't think so. Most Flash
poetry is not hypertext."
Everdeen says, "MimumusW, so there can be eliterature w/o
hypertext. Is all Flash poetry eliterature?"
minimusW says, "Everdeen, sure. Why not? I'm not saying
it's all good--but that's not a discussion I'd care to start!"
Deena displays slide #7 on WhatIsIt?: <http://www.eliterature.org/com/archives/htintro5.html>.
|
Respond
to reader choices
Remember
the Choose-your-own adventure books where if you rescued
the princess you went to section 208 on page 64? Electronic
works have built on this early notion of readers' choices
to format works that change depending on your choices.
For example, Robert Kendall's Clues
combines poetry and imagery in a game-like setting where
you solve mysteries, including the mystery of life.
|
Familiarity
with the landscape
Jill
says, "Is there anyone here who's never seen any electronic
literature, but who is curious?"
Deena says, "Jean, historical, laird, are you guys familiar
with electronic literature? is this your first foray?"
Jill says, "You can talk by typing say and then whatever
you want to say in the box at the bottom left of your screen."
jeansmith says, "I am familiar with what it is and I'm
thinking about my use for it, and its use for me."
laird says, "I'm pretty familiar with this stuff. I ran
an enCore site a few years ago, and was a moo hacker on metaverse
many moons ago..."
Jill grins, nice to hear that jean and laird
Deena says, "Terrific, jean. Welcome aboard..."
Deena
says, "Laird, jean, historical, have you guys looked at
an electronic literature piece? or explored this medium?"
jeansmith says, "I've looked at, and tried to download,
but it was blurry" RobKendall
says, "Real hard-core elit is something that wouldn't work
as well in print, unlike most ebooks."
minimusW says, "Or work at all"
Deena says, "Jean, which did you try to download?"
jeansmith says, "Something off the site we had a chat with
some of the authors from... back a few months ago"
Helen says, "The ALtX ebooks?"
jeansmith says, "Yes"
Deena says, "Jean, do you have the URL or any subject for
it? perhaps I can help"
jeansmith says, "I'll get that to you "
elizabethj sigh ... can't recall page ...
Deena says, "To page someone, type page NAME "MESSAGE"
Slideshow
watching
Deena
displays slide #9 on WhatIsIt?:
<http://www.eliterature.org/com/archives/htintro6.html>.
|
Add
sound
All
three of these works use sound as another element to convey
emotion and underscore action as an inseparable part of
the literature. Other works rely mostly on sound to convey
the meaning.
David
Knoebel's use of sound in his click
poetry provides a spoken ending that gives the meaning
to the written word sequence. For example, when we click
on the phrase "can't say yes," we see the words
"can't say no" and hear the words "time
passes."
Jim
Andrew's Nio
incorporates jazz notes and tunes with beautifully rendered
moving letters. As we choose which sounds to listen to,
we create a synthesized jam session.
|
Deena
says, "David's click poetry here isn't in flash, but is
a useful addition.."
Jill says, "I'm not familiar with David's work, Deena,
where is it? And what is it?"
Deena
says, "Jill, you can see the link on the side to David
Knoebel's work, but basically the work has three parts, two
are written and then the third line is spoken. it's kind of
fun and a new approach to merging visual and oral"
Easty
arrives from Fifth Dimension
Jill says, "Hi Easty, nice to see you back!"
Deena says, "Easty, if you've missed some of the slides,
I have all of these listed at http://www.eliterature.org/com/archives/htintro.html"
>>
Historical_Guest is now known as b_theater.>> Impressionist_Guest
is now known as elizabethj.
Deena
displays slide #11 on WhatIsIt?:
<http://www.eliterature.org/com/archives/htintro7.html>.
|
Include
background information
Electronic
literature does not have the storage limitations of a
printed book--so you can incorporate materials that provide
an entire context for a work.
Diana
Slattery's Glide
provides an entire new language of dancing semicircles,
a mystic oracle, and more to make her story real.
Helen
Whitehead's Web,
Warp, and Weft uses poetry, images of technology and
patterns, interviews, documents, and other texts to "explore
the resonances between the making of textiles and the
making of the web."
|
minimusW
says, "BTW, Deena, great work in this intro. I realize
it's not over yet"
Deena says, "The works on the side now (which include Helen's
work and Diana's) are other approaches which use a lot of links
and background material"
Deena thanks wes :)
Deena
displays slide #13 on WhatIsIt?:
<http://www.eliterature.org/com/archives/htintro8.html>.
|
Want
to see more?
The
Electronic Literature Organization has a directory
of works and a showcase
of wonderful web journals that feature hypertext literature.
ELO Symposium also featured 50 new works (2002) in its
Gallery.
Marjorie
Luesebrink (MD Coverley) and others reviewed great works
in 2000 -2001 in Jumpin'
at the Diner and Progressive
Dinner Party for Riding
the Meridian. Carolyn Guertin's Assemblage
is a list of women writers in new media updated monthly.
Not
all hypertexts are on the web! Some of the best hypertexts
use other software such as Storyspace or Hypercard. You
can get many of these at Eastgate
Systems.
|
Deena
says, "Ahh, that is the one I want to end on---a jumping
off list of electronic literature..."
Helen says, "Deena, is this introduction available for
people to browse through at their leisure afterwards?"
Deena passes around post slide popcorn and cokes
Deena says, "Yes, please go to http://www.eliterature.org/com/archives/htintro.html
afterwards to click and poke around at these works."
Helen says, "A transcript or log of this chat will also
be available at the trAce and ELO sites (eventually)"
Deena says, "Right Helen, at http://www.eliterature.org/com/LinguaMOO.shtml"
RobKendall munches popcorn
Deena says, "And people can view this slideshow here by
typing "View 1 on whatisit?"
Difference
between elit and ebooks
Helen
says, "Why don't we mean downloadable ebooks when we say
"Eliterature"? Rob? Jill?"
Everdeen says, "Deena? You point out that not all hypertexts
are on the web. Which is more critical to being eliterature?
The hypertextuality or the locus?"
Deena says, "Good question, Helen. What makes electronic
literature electronic literature, rather than just a downloadable
PDF?"
minimusW says, "Helen, I suppose because ebooks don't yet
change the shape of narrative""
Helen stitches Ev's and Deena's points together
Deena says, "Good point, Everdeen... What is more critical
to electronic literature? I keep saying that electronic literature
is stuff that you cannot do in a linear print format. "
Jill says, "For me, eliterature means literature that COULDN'T
be printed. most ebooks are just new copies of old novels, or
new novels written in a traditional print manner. I want to
read new things that use the new medium!"
Jill says, "I agree Deena, elit is lit that can't be printed."
Margaret says, "I agree with you there, Jill, eliterature
is more than the printed book, not necessarily better but covering
more facets"
Jill nods to Margaret, "That's right, it's not about being
better or worse, but about being different, being itself, just
as novels aren't better or worse than movies but different :)
Everdeen says, "Eliterature can't be printed but it *can*
be presented in a "Static" form on a CD?"
RobKendall says, "For me the difference between conventional
ebooks and so-called elit or new media lit is that most ebooks
are just printed books that are dumped into an electronic interface."
Helen says, "First films were just recorded stage plays
- then the producers and writers realised that a new medium
meant different possibilities. That's the case here too"
Jill [to Helen]: yes that's a bit of a worry - imagine if steven
spielfberg had to direct movies in a way that he knew the script
would sell well if published in book-form!
Everdeen says, "So a critical step being focused on is
that eliterature introduces a change in the shape of the narrative,
of the journey, in the writing -- but that it can still exist
in a "Static" form, captured on a CD, for instance"
Works
to introduce people to
Deena
says, "Are there other works that people like to introduce
newcomers to in electronic literature?"
RobKendall
says, "Geoff Ryman's hypertext 253 (I think I've got the
title right) is a good introductory hypertext, because of the
way it's structured and the navigational map he provides. The
text is also easy to read."
Deena says, "Rob, I really like 253. It is a good way to
show format and a formal structure. 253 has 253 nodes each with
253 words and links between the stories."
Jill says, "I agree, 253 is a good place to start."
Helen says, "Of course 253 HAS been printed - in a book
- Geoff Ryman at the last Incubation conference admitted that
he knew that would happen, and therefore when writing the hypertext
he was still thinking in "Print""
Turning
ht into print
RobKendall
says, "One of Rob Swigart's early interactive novels was
also released in print and there is a print version of Strickland's
hypertext poem Sand and Soot."
minimusW says, "Well, Everdeen, it depends on what you're
trying to do...if collaboration is of the essence, then any
static form won't do"
RobKendall says, "Reading the hypertext version and the
print version of Sand and Soot are two very different experiences
though."
Deena says, "Stephanie's True North was originally a print
work that won awards. She turned it into a hypertext to add
the connections and structure that she could not achieve in
print"
Helen
says, "I did the same with my hypertext novel for my MA
dissertation - because I knew the assessors would have to read
it in print :(. It turned out like a choose-your-own=adventure
with "Go to page 45 or 47" written in""
Jill [to Helen]: sounds rather amusing for an ma, actually!
what fun!
Deena
says, "There are other works that simply cannot be printed
out, in any form. My first work, Marble Springs, is in HyperCard,
and it has lots of hidden places to click and to go to. I tried
to print out an archive copy and failed miserably"
Helen
says, "Books have been turned into films - plays - radio
series - etc. why not a book and a hypertext/elit work? They
would be different pieces though in the same way as a book and
a film, and one is often disappointing"
Jill [to Helen]: yes, but books turned into films are heavily
adapted, they|re not just printed out onto film...
Deena says, "Helen, there is a difference in the approach
to a book and a movie, though. How do you see differences in
approaches in print and electronic literature?"
Helen
says, "The hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy was radio -
play - TV - film - book - LP - it would have been BEST possibly
as a hypertext (and a sort of HHGTTG is being collaboratively
written as we speak)"
Deena says, "Helen, that is funny, I always thought of
the Don't Panic Hitchhikers guide as the first real hypertext..."
Deena hands round big friendly books with Don't Panic written
in big letters as the books drop in from an unexplained sky
rift
In
flux from cd to web
Margaret
says, "The only thing you can do on the web that you can't
do on CD is to be interactive in real time"
Everdeen says, "Margaret, I disagree, one can continue
to evolve a piece on the web...it becomes fixed to a point in
time when transferred to CD"
minimusW says, "Margaret, that's a big only...""
Margaret says, "Not necessarily Everdeen You just burn
another CD"
Deena says, "Everdeen what about pieces that do not go
onto a cd?"
Everdeen says, "MinimusW... precisely my point!....which
is why I am asking about the bounds of the definition of eliterature
with respect to CD versus web"
Jill
says, "And if it's on the web, it really is more accessible..."
Everdeen says, "Margaret, then all you are doing with a
second CD is creating another snapshot....you loose the movie"
Margaret says, "Everdeen, movies are made of snapshots
and so is the web., There is no such thing there as true fluidity"
Everdeen
says, "Margaret, I think in some ways the difference is
like that between a garden...open and growing and being nurtured....and
a flower shop."
MazThing
says, "Margaret, perhaps the 'expectation or possibility
of change' is the difference...online a difference is always
possible...on the CD it is *definitely* fixed"
Everdeen says, "Margaret, the fluidity isn't in the moment,
but in the continuation of the journey"
MazThing . o O ( fixed ..if mobile )
Conversions
and readers
minimusW
says, "Every e-writer, I believe, has a conversion experience,
when they realize there's something they can do on the computer
that they can't do in print. Would it be interesting to share
these experiences?""
Jill [to minimusW]: and how about readers? do you think they
too have that point?
minimusW says, "Good question, Jill! I wonder. Fewer readers
than writers, at this moment in time, I suspect!"
Jill [to minimusW]: do you mean that you think there are more
writers of elit than readers of elit?
minimusW says, "Jill, yes, I think so. Really. Sadly."
elizabethj
says, "Jill, minimus -- it's the same w/print poetry --
more writers than readers"
minimusW says, "Yes, elizabethj, I think you're right.
I don't know whether this is a problem or not...some critics
seem to think so."
Jill
[to minimusW]: if there really are more writers than readers
we should be thinking accordingly. Perhaps that's actually a
good thing. At least it means we shouldn't treat elit as a one
to many broadcasting thing.
Motives
Deena
says, "Yes, Robert, why did you do A Life Set for Two,
Clues, and others in electronic format? What possessed you to
spend years programming for these works?"
RobKendall says, "Deena, clues originally existed as a
series of poems that was published in printed magazines. I turned
it into an interactive game because I wanted to give more emphasis
to the problem-solving mystery game aspect of the poem"
Deena
says, "Wes, what was your motive for writing Turning In
as a hypertext?"
minimusW says, "Part of Turning In just HAD to be an eight-sided
cube. That shape expressed exactly the point I was trying to
make. The rest of the narrative had to find a form to suit that
cube."
Collaboration
Deena says, "Everdeen, all, do you see more possibilities
for collaboration in electronic lit? why?"
Everdeen says, "Deena, I don't see the definition of "Electronic
lit" or "Elit" or "Eliterature" as
requiring collaboration"
Everdeen says, "And since I am interested in collaboration...I
don't use those terms for what I do"
Deena says, "Right Everdeen, but do you see more possibilities
for collaboration?"
Everdeen says, "Deena, with respect to collaboration, the
use of the web/internet permits a far greater range of possibilities"
Celebrating
the Lone Reader
Jill
[to elizabethj]: but there aren't REALLY. Maybe it feels that
way, but surely not really... after all, I read elit and I don't
write it. so obviously there are at least all the writers plus
one reader, me :)
Easty
says, "Interesting point - there does seem to be more writers
than readers of elit! Judging by the amount of boring material
available, it´ not surprising. As somebody has already
mentioned, just putting a normal print version up on the screen
is not going to advance the cause of e-literature."
Deena says, "Easty I totally agree. It is an interesting
time, because we have to sort out the good and the boring...
Have you read any that you like and would recommend?"
elizabethj
says, "Hooray for you, Jill!"
Deena says, "Jill, what got you started in reading htlit?"
Helen claps at Jill.
Jill takes a bow as possibly the only reader.
minimusW decides to write everything from now on for Jill
Deena
says, "Why did you spend so much time on your close reading
of Afternoon...what benefits did you see in that reading that
you would not get in a close print reading?"
Deena applauds Jill as a close and wonderful reader
Jill says, "I started reading elit when I was browsing
through a web directory and found that "Hypertext literature"
existed. I'd never heard of it. And so I had to investigate
it. And I absolutely loved it..."
Jill says, "Since then I've read lots, but like with novels,
I certainly don't like or bother to read everything."
The
joy of the medium
Deena
says, "Jill, all, what is there to like/love about this
medium?"
Deena says, "What are the characteristics that keep us
coming back And spending all this time on it?"
Deena says, "Rob, Wes, Helen, Maz, other writers, what
are you doing in this medium that you can't do elsewhere"
Jill says, "I love the visuality, I think. And I love the
mystery of links, I love wondering where something may lead
And following clues. Though I'm not a fan of detective stories
;)"
Helen says, "For me it's collaboration, whether with another
writer, with lots of other writers or with the reader"
RobKendall says, "I think multimedia (flash, etc.) can
engage on a more visceral level than just print on the page.
For me, music And movement adds the excitement of live performance."
elizabethj says, "I like the fact that it encourages minimalism."
Cross
overs
jeansmith
says, "My print novel will entice readers to the web to
find essential info; there they will become involved in hypertext,
And eventually returned to the print portion. Does anyone know
of other novels trying to cross-over"
Helen claps at jeansmith.
elizabethj says, "Sounds brilliant, Jean"
Deena says, "Jean, wow. The crossover sounds wonderful!~
Do you have a URL"
Deena says, "Could you describe your book more, Jean?"
jeansmith says, "No, it's all falling together, as I learn
about it at trAce, the mystery, the potential of layers"
jeansmith says, "It's a non-linear mystery with evidence
of the crime on the web board right now"
Helen
says, "Lots of children's novels are crossing over. I can
provide URLs later if anyone's interested"
Deena says, "Helen, yes, could you send me a list of those
URLs for the log?"
Deena
says, "Jean, my Disappearing
Rain is a novel on the web, I guess I could print out portions
of it to use as a print work. But I was more concerned with
linking And connections... Also, my triangulation was published
as both a web piece And a print piece. We took one side of the
triangle to print."
Engaging
the reader
Deena
says, "Rob, how does the multimedia engage the reader?"
RobKendall says, "Hypertext provides the chance to achieve
a more highly resonant And open-ended sort of writing than is
possible in print. The possible implications of any one segment
of text are multiplied"
Everdeen says, "Rob, at base then, the critical definitive
necessity for elit is the use of hypertext????"
RobKendall says, "Deena, multimedia engages the visual
And aural senses in a way not possible with print. It also engages
the part of our brain that deals with temporal information (movement
And so on)."
Matching
idea And medium
minimusW
says, "Deena, I keep looking for what I've called elsewhere
plenitude--a match between idea And medium. "
Deena says, "Wes, what do you mean by that kind of a match?"
minimusW says, "Plenitude is like the moment in a dance
when you know, kinesthetically, that your body has occupied
space And time in a pleasing rightness"
Jill [to minimusW]: I agree. The elit I love best belongs in
the medium.
Deena says, "Wes, how does hypertext occupy space And time
in a way that differs from traditional print?"
minimusW says, "Deena, I'm not sure that it does, necessarily;
ANY medium can be occupied fully. But perhaps the novelty of
emedia makes the fit (or lack of it) more apparent."
Deena
says, "How does the possibility of change work for a reader?"
Everdeen says, "Jill how do you define "The medium"?"
MazThing says, "Deena...I've not studied such things but
*for me* as a reader...it is perhaps like going to read the
news or watch it....I do so because I think that there might
be...well, something *new*. And I see variation as a big pull.
I don't know if this is general."
Elizabethj says, "I also like when it incorporates genuine
indeterminacy."
More
favorite pieces
Deena
says, "Maz, all, have you signed up for the email story
from Blue
Company set to start in May?"
Jill
says, "My favourite elit piece these days is online caroline
- http://www.onlinecaroline.com"
Jill says, "And I love that because it so totally belongs
on the web: caroline is a lonely girl who wants friends And
who uses a webcam And email to communicate with us readers."
Deena
says, "Oh Jill, I have to look that one up. Sounds like
Caitlin Fisher's These
Waves of Girls in a way..."
Jill [to Deena]: well, it's not quite, but it's a fascinating
piece. perhaps as much web soap opera as web literature.
Defining
moments
Deena
has been carefully skirting the tar pit of definitions...
Deena hands round soap opera bubble blowers to all
Jill
laughs at Deena! "I hate definitions. And one thing I love
about elit is that really, it's in between categories. a lot
of it could just as well be called something other than literature.
Deena says, "Yeah, Jill, I have a bad feeling that this
chat could well be, And so, how are movies different from sculpture..."
Jill laughs trying to think how to define movies as different
from sculpture!
elizabethj says, "Deena, to some artists a movie might
not be 'different' from sculpture, or they might not bother
about the different, except using the material ... I agree with
Jill -- not sure that definitions are all that useful??"
MazThing agrees with elizabeth that definitions don't particularly
interest her....but they will have to interest people trying
to market or provide venues for....well...whatever these things
are
Deena
hands round more movie And sculpture tickets
Jill says, "It's more interesting thinking about what elit
(or sculpture) can do rather than about how it's different from
X... "Though that's hard to do sometimes..." Jill
laughs!
Deena hands around "Go directly to meaning, do not pass
definition cards And get out of defining cards to all
Tempo-ture
Deena
says, "Rob, the multimedia can define the reader's experience
with tempo And pacing. How can we use that to evoke a different
mood in the reader? "
RobKendall says, "Deena, tempo in an animated piece can
establish mood on its own. A very fast tempo evokes a feeling
of excitement And urgency. Slow tempo = repose, tranquility."
Deena says, "Rob, can you cite examples from your work?"
minimusW says, "Rob, at least until the medium overheats...e.g.
Stuart Moulthrop's Hegirascope...at
a certain point you stop trying to keep up"
RobKendall says, "Wes, I think hegirascope is deliberately
trying to evoke a feeling of frustration through the overfast
tempo"
Kernel
of the matter
Everdeen
says, "I just wonder if there is a kernel here...something
which is necessary to eliterature (even if not sufficient)"
minimusW says, "Everdeen, I kinda doubt it...but it might
be possible to figure out a small number of things...e.g. interaction,
branching, animation of language, etc."
Everdeen winks at minimus "It's the other side of the coin"
RobKendall says, "Everdeen, I think the critical thing
for elit is the use of either multimedia (audio, animation,
video), interactivity (hypertext, reader collaboration, etc.),
or generated text (text that is produced on the fly by the software)."
Everdeen says, "Rob, so a sort of movement or "Life"
to the piece???"
Everdeen seeks the deeper meaning beyond form
elizabethj laughs
Jill nods to rob
New
arrival to transform elit
Carlos
arrives.
Jill says, "G'day Carlos!"
Jill grins!
Deena says, "Hi Carlos, we are talking about what makes
electronic literature different from print literature, what
we like about it so much that we are dedicating most of our
lives to it..."
Deena says, "Carlos, what is your experience with electronic
literature?"
Carlos says, "I'm an electronic reader, but I think elit,
as we
experience today, just materialize things we did with print
books, in some ways.""
Jill [to Carlos]: are you thinking of anything in particular?
minimusW says, "Carlos, what kinds of things?"
Carlos says, "Well, on print books we can read in non-linear
ways, but this experience doesn't materialize it on book, only
in reader's mind. In elit we can materialize this experience,
but we can' modify the work in same way. Then, how transform
eliterature after we read it?""
Deena says, "Carlos, what are some electronic works that
you think provide this material experience?"
Carlos says, "Deena, I think is because elit, in some way,
give me a chance to dialogue with authors, modify your works
And give me a chance to be an co-author. But in hypertexts that
I've experienced, this possibilities is too limited. I can't
modify works, just navigate through them."
MazThing
says, "But the opportunity to modify And participate in
writing is inherently available online, Carlos...if writers
choose (And are able to) use it"
MazThing says, "The joining of reader And writer modes
is one of the interesting things."
New
And old
MazThing
says, "But it's why we read our New email....rather than
studying carefully the Old"
Deena says, "Maz, all, I wonder if we are continually wrapped
up in the newer works that we are not seeing the older ones?"
minimusW says, "Deena, yes!!!"
Helen
says, "We tend to prefer the term "New media writing"
but what happens when "New" is no longer "New"?"
Deena hands round cards to cross out old, post, new pre, And
modern rom all our dissertations
Jill [to Helen]: well, then "New" is old, like the
french noveau roman, or, for that matter the NOVEL...
Deena on second thought, just hands around strawberry And chocolate
desserts for dissertations
Helen acknowledges a hit from Jill
Jill grins evilly
Deena laughs at the 400 year old newness of novel
Helen says, "Or New York...."
Deena passes round pictures of Canterbury's 600 year old New
bridge.
Margaret
says, "Even if it is pure text And looks as it could be
printed it stops being elit because once on paper it is fixed
but while it is on the web it has potential for change"
Everdeen says, "Margaret, that is the point that bemuses
me about CDs!"
Jill
says, "Will it be post-new media do you think"
Deena hands round ante-post-new-pre-apres cards
Jill says, "That'd be interesting.."
minimusW says, "Would like the world to stop so he can
get off."
minimusW says, "Oops, wrong punctuation"
Essential
elements
Helen
says, "If you assess students on reading or writing new
media/elit then you have to define it -- they can't watch a
film for example, And we can't say a new media work of 30,000
words for a dissertation, so we have to have DEFINITIONS! -
at least an element of interactivity or multimedia or collaboration...."
elizabethj takes the point that there are pragmatic reasons
for definitions
Everdeen nods agreement with Helen about definitions And connections
to academia
minimusW knows it when he sees it And is on vacation And doesn't
NEED to assess any students right now
Deena says, "Yeah, Helen, it all ties back to how And what
we teach..."
Helen says, "If you offer a prize for best new media work
you need definitions - we can't avoid it ;("
Deena hands round wes' great glasses that know when they see
it to all
Deena goes around with boing boing eyes
Deena
says, "Ok, when you guys go to a party And someone asks,
what do you like to do, And you say read electronic lit And
they say what is that, what do you say?"
Jill laughs. "I was at a party like that last night. 'Stories
on the net' I say And then they say 'oh I
Helen says, "I've stopped going to parties, it's too difficult
to explain"
Deena hands Helen a card saying it is too difficult to explain
to pass out at her next party
Jill says, "They say 'oh I'm a professor of ray-patrolling
super-nuclear gardenites' And we nod stupidly at each other
And start talking about the weather..."
Helen says, "And even my friends don't ask me what I write
any more"
Deena laughs, yeah, I know what you mean, Helen. I know what
you mean!
Jill says, "It's hard to explain. If I try I generally
give a pretty thorough example And then they sort of half understand
And say "That sounds very specialised" And I give
up And start talking about gossip or the royal wedding or the
middle east crisis instead."
Does
the audience see it?
Everdeen
says, "Deena, of course, that "Know it when I see
it" is one of the very things which helps to put off some
many new readers...."
minimusW says, "Why, Everdeen?"
Everdeen says, "Magnums, when someone asks, And receives
an answer like that...it creates a barrier....a sense of being
outside the "Elite"..."
Everdeen says, "We have a responsibility to make access
possible, to create understanding, if we want "Readers""
MazThing
says, "Helen, also..wouldn't it be nice if there were a
wider audience outside academic institutions perhaps....there
the definitions don't matter so much but the access And directions
too matter very much"
RobKendall says, "There must be a fairly good sized audience
for elit. My word circuits site gets 3000-4000 unique visitors
a month, And those figures are typical for a lot of elit sites.
That's a lot more readers than most printed lit mags have"
Jill [to RobKendall]: that's a really valuable point, Rob
minimusW is extremely pleased to hear Rob say that
Deena says, "Wow Rob. maybe readers just read And don't
think that anything unique is going on?"
Jill
says, "I have the impression a lot of elit authors don't
feel very confident that they have an audience"
minimusW rolls on the floor laughing at Jill's understatement
Jill grins at minimus
Deena says, "Jill, yes, do you think that is because of
the web And serving it or because of the non-market/nonbusiness
part of the elit publishing right now?"
Jill says, "I think a lot of readers are invisible except
to the people who actually run the web sites"
Jill says, "When I look at a lit journal in a bookstore
I assume they're important, while they may only really have
100 readers. a web site just doesn't have that feel of readership
- yet."
Deena nods at Jill's wise perceptions.
Coming
to elit
Deena
says, "Carlos, all, how are people coming to this electronic
literature? What was your first experience with the literature?"
Carlos says, "Deena, readings on childhood, scientific
fiction, Jules Verne, And nowadays, I'm reading Borges, Joyce
And books like that. Why are you asking me this?""
Deena says, "Carlos, I would like to know why people come
to elit--what was your first experience with electronic literature?"
Helen
says, "Margie's Incubation collaborative mystery drama
M is for Nottingham? has been testing on newbies this week,
And they keep saying to me: oh it's brilliant NOW I see what
you mean! That kind of thing could be a fun intro to elit"
Deena says, "That is a great intro...we will have Margie
on the chat next month June 15"
Helen grins And bows
Carlos
says, "Deena, I think scratchbooks in electronic format
can be an interesting way of literature. But when I say scratchbooks,
I just think collaborative scratchbooks.""
elizabethj
says, "Everdeen's right I think. Also I have come across
a number of people who have seen one or two things And aren't
impressed. To have a little repertoire of excellent And accessible
pieces, with cogent explanations of why they're good, would
be a help."
Jill says, "Yes, elizabeth, it would be really good to
have more public discussion of elit. trad.lit is discussed in
newspapers Though hardly anyone reads it, but elit is only discussed
on the web."
Deena says, "Elizabeth, you are right. I have a short intro
here, but would like to add to it
http://www.eliterature.org/com/archives/htintro.html"
Everdeen says, "Elizabethj, what has been truly distressing
to me is when people have been shut off from further inquiry
by "Our".....desire to not be pinned down, to ice-skate
around the task of explanation...."
minimusW says, "Everdeen, I think the people I've seen
become disillusioned are not those who are not given a definition,
but rather who come to too narrow a definition too soon.""
Everdeen says, "Minimus, no, there are people who have
been interested And shut out...it's unfortunate....it's a different
group, but one which exists as well as those who have been given
too narrow a definition first"
elizabethj says, "I agree Ev. (But I also hate being asked
to 'explain' my work, no matter on paper or whatever ...) I
like the idea of a really good review. Not one that talks down
And oversimplifies."
Everdeen says, "Minimus I think the danger lies in too
narrow a definition which deals with *specifics* rather than
primaries"
Deena
says, "I wonder how many print writers And readers have
to explain why it is they like what they are reading And writing?"
Jill [to Deena]: I once was asked to give a lecture on "Why
I like hypertext" And it was a nightmare. It's really hard
to pin it down.
Everdeen says, "Deena, are you thinking of classes or seminars
or bookclubs or..."
Publicizing
Jill
says, "The work elo's been doing is really important."
Helen says, "TrAce
gets coverage in the computer sections of the paper but not
in the literature sections"
Margaret
says, "Perhaps that is because it belongs to the web And
not to newspapers"
Deena says, "We need a New York Times book review on the
web..."
Jill says, "Yes, but novels don't "Belong" in
newspapers either do they? it's just what people are accustomed
to, isn't it?'"
Deena displays slide #12 on WhatIsIt?:
Margaret says, "Yes, the review needs to be on the web"
Deena displays slide #13 on WhatIsIt?:
<http://www.eliterature.org/com/archives/htintro8.html>.
Deena says, "On the side are also some great compendiums
for elit"
RobKendall
says, "I think the Electronic
Literature Directory is a very valuable resource for introducing
people to elit And helping to clarify what it is, what the different
categories And forms are. We now have funding so we're back
at work on improving the directory after a long hiatus"
jeansmith says, "The elo directory link over there doesn't
seem to work"
RobKendall says, "The correct url is http://directory.eliterature.org/"
Deena applauds the electronic literature directory
Jill says, "The greater problem is probably that people
haven't even considered the possibility that there could be
literature outside of books And novels And poems."
Reading
the whole thing
minimusW
says, "And a review by people who have read carefully--I
can't tell you how many bad web reviews I've read of e-lit--no
one reading a print text would feel that they were justified
in writing about a text without reading the whole thing"
jeansmith says, "Thanks"
Deena says, "Wes, maybe that is part of the problem. I
never think I have read the whole thing..."
minimusW says, "Yes, but you wouldn't read a node or two
and stop, would you?"
Everdeen says, "Print text reviewers often review without
reading the whole text...it's the nature of the beast"
Jill says, "Sometimes I read part of something and can't
get any further and I'm left thinking that either I'm stupid
and can't figure out how to get any further or else it's a really
stupid piece of web lit...let me find an example.."
Jill says, "Here's an example: Esfore-entropy Dancing Prey
at http://www.drunkenboat.com/db2/esfore/esfore.html"
Jill says, "I have NO IDEA whether i've read the whole
piece or not but i can't make it do much"
Deena says, "Wes, no, I usually spend about a half hour,
then if I don't like it, I don't read further or mention it.
I am a tough reader"
Deena says, "Jill, yes, and then I confess, I usually don't
go back to that work"
minimusW says, "But would you write a review of a text
you'd given up on? I doubt it!"
Everdeen says, "Minimus, no I wouldn't"
Deena
says, "I have to admit that it was only after your patient
review of afternoon that I understood what I was missing. We
need many more patient readers!"
RobKendall says, "Afternoon is a rewarding work if you
have the patience. a lot of people start with that work because
it's the most famous hypertext and are then put off by the navigational
difficulties -- difficulties that aren't present in a lot of
other hypertexts"
Jill nods to Rob, "I adore afternoon. The form perfectly
fits the story, and it's so carefully and beautifully told.
Carlos
says, "Hypertext is non-linear, interactive in some ways,
multimedia, topological writing. eliterature is more than that,
or should be. Why, when people discuss eliterature, they don't
discuss what happens with characters and the time of narrative?
elit happens in space, like hypertext, but it's not at all.
Can we think eliterature as collaborative literature. Is this
literature? " "
Getting
lost
Helen says, "I just got lost in The
Book of Going Forth by Day - I can't get any further than
the opening page...."
Deena says, "Helen, I had to email Margie to figure out
how to get past the opening."
Jill
says, "Newcomers to elit who find something like that and
don't get it (or maybe you can't get it) must just feel stupid
and decide to hate elit in general..."
minimusW
says, "True, Jill, very true."
Deena says, "Jill, yes, I shudder to think about the many
different ways you can get lost and so much of it is your computer..Some
works on Netscape 4 don;t work on Netscape 6, I never know if
there is supposed to be sound..."
Jill says, "There's that too - as an author it must be
quite daunting to think of how to challenge the reader but not
lose her or him!"
Deena says, "I like the works that say up front, this is
this big, it has this much sound, it runs like this and does
this..."
Jill [to Deena]: I shudder to think of how many works I've missed
in that way...
Deena says, "For example, I missed about 3/4 of Lexia
to Perplexia and never know it until I talked with Talan..."
minimusW says, "I'm curious why Michael Joyce's Twilight,
A Symphony is so little read. Or did I just miss people's
reaction to it? It's better than afternoon, IMO."
RobKendall says, "Wes, twilight is only available for mac,
so that eliminates most of its potential readers."
minimusW says, "Ah, I didn't know that."
Jill says, "I didn't enjoy twilight that much. I think
it was the content matter that just didn't mesh with me. Which
is NOT an informed and critical opinion of it, just my personal
enjoyment ;)"
minimusW says, "But the prose is absolutely gorgeous"
Deena says, "Wes, I will spend more time with twilight.
I confess, I looked at it once and didn't get anywhere."
Jill
[to minimusW]: yes, it probably is, but there are so many beautiful
works that work for some people and not for everyone and for
some reason twilight doesn't work for me. I wonder whether there
truly are works that work for everyone? (people probably lie
about Shakespeare and Joyce)
minimusW says, "Well, yes, you can't get anywhere. Just
listen to the language...let it move you on non-rational levels
first..."
Jill says, "I'll give it another go, wes, I promise ;)"
Deena
says, "Jill, good point. I know folks who hate Shakespeare,
and I don't like some famous writers, myself..."
RobKendall says, "Ezra Pound hated Shakespeare"
Classes
Deena
says, "Yes, I think there are some great classes--wes and
rob teach them as well as others"
minimusW says, "Well, I teach one of the not-so-great ones,
anyway"
Deena hasn't taken wes' course but likes wes' syllabus
Deena has taken rob's course and heartily recommends it
RobKendall says, "Thanks, deena"
Deena
says, "At the writers workshop next month (June 12) we
are going through Diane Slattery's Glide,
together to see how a group criticism makes a difference..."
Jill says, "That's a great idea, Deena"
minimusW says, "I wish I could be there. It's a fascinating
project."
Wrapping
up
Helen
says, "So it's officially the end of our hour. You can
leave if you like - or chat on....."
Margaret
says, "Thank you for a thought provoking chat"
minimusW seconds the applause. And thirds
Deena hands round the pints of genius/Guinness
Margaret has disconnected.
Jill joins in the applause, and takes a sip of her G&T
Everdeen
smiles thanks around to all
Deena applauds her guests, Jill Walker Reader extraordinaire
and RobKendall Writer extraordinaire
Easty
says, "Easty says, "Thanks"
Deena
says, "Easty, all thanks for coming!"
Easty has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Easty.
The housekeeper arrives to remove jeansmith and to cart Margaret
off to bed.
jeansmith says, "Thank you for all the ideas, bye for now"
minimusW toasts to patience with Jolt cola
Helen says, "I'm off to bed. Fascinating though the chat
is. Night all!"
Deena says, "I think it will be fun to see a piece from
many different people's point of views"
MazThing thanks all and slips out.
RobKendall says, "Bye helen"
Helen has disconnected.
Deena says, "Helen thanks so much for hosting and we are
looking forward to next month"
Everdeen says, "Night Helen, Maz"
RobKendall says, "Thanks for a great chat deena and helen."
Jill says, "I'm going to go to bed to, people, I'm jetlagged
at it's nearly midnight... thanks for a great chat deena, helen,
rob :)"
Jill blows kisses all round
minimusW says, "Yes, thanks--stimulating as always"
Deena says, "Thank you all for the wonderful chat...it
has been a great deal of fun and we covered some new ground..."
Jill bows and exits discreetly (fascinated to know that Ezra
hated Shakespeare..)
Jill has disconnected.
Everdeen says, "Thanks all good talk"
RobKendall says, "Bye Jill"
elizabethj says, "Goodbye, thanks all"
minimusW says, "Bye all"
Carlos has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Carlos.
Deena hands round parting glasses
minimusW has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove minimusW.
elizabethj has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove elizabethj.
RobKendall sipping his drink, rob says goodbye
Deena says, "Thanks rob!"
Deena says, "Good night all!""
The housekeeper arrives to remove RobKendall.
Everdeen makes like a tree and leaves.
The housekeeper arrives to cart Helen, Jill, and Deena off to
bed.
laird goes home.
--
End log: Sunday, May 19, 2002 6:49:56 pm CDT
