Chat Transcript: April 21st 2002
ELO Symposium Gallery

Sunday April 21st (in LinguaMOO)
This transcript produced by Deena Larsen

Straight to log missing introduction

Follow up email on Webartery List

• Intro
• E-poetry Gossip and Squeak
• More Starting Chatter
• Introducing ourselves and the ELO gallery
• Wikis
• Offline
• Links, Tool, Mediums
• Cults of Interactivity
• Parameters
• Weighty Links and Interactions
• Non-hypertexts in the Room
  
• Wrestling Control
• Link Expectations
• Cat Break
• Expectations and Commitments
• Closing Up
• Commercial Commentary
• Reading Styles

-- Start log: Sunday, April 21, 2002 2:40:17 p.m. CST

Intro
Linda Caroli (Linda_c) says, "Hello all""
Helen Whitehead says, "Hello all you illustrious people!"
trbell . o O ( I got somewhere, at last ) trbell says, "Hello" trbell says, "This is tom"
Deena Larsen says, "Welcome all!"
Geoffrey_Gatza says, "MESSAGE hello am I here? "
Deena says, "Hi Geoffrey, we read you loud and clear. to type a message, just put a Quotation mark and then your message""
trbell says, "Hi, all"
][mez][, Pold, Cybele (meikal and), Nathaniel Stern, Laura_Sullivan, Kate Pullinger arrive.
Deena says, "Welcome all!"
Geoffrey_Gatza says, "Hi Deena and MEZ""
][mez][ says, "Heya all, mez here."
Cybele says, "Mez what time is it on your island?" I am totally wrecked (its 1 0 2 6 in the morning here so bear with me;)"
][mez][ says, "Helloha all btw"
Nathaniel Stern says, "Hey Deena. thanks for the warm welcome. Hey all. Nathaniel Stern here. I had a piece show @ the ELO Symposium, although I was unable to attend..."
Deena says, "Glad you could come Nathaniel. Always good to see you here."
][mez][ says, "Heya tom, deena, geoff, cybele NS, Pold (hope I didn't leave any1 out;))"
Cybele says, "Hello all, this is mIEKAL"
Helen says, "Hi Laura, good to talk to you again, Linda, Geoffrey, mez, mIEKAL, Julianne (nice to see you again!), Nathaniel, Tom...."
linda.c says, "Greetings - nice to be here""
][mez][ says, "How>d helen & julianne, gnu I 'd leave some out there......"
Deena passes round magic drinks and tutorials
][mez][ says, "It's 6 am mon morning.....i'm T I . R E D :)"
][mez][ says, "& its storming here cybele, so I sympathize [though knott nearly as fierce.lee as there I m.magine]......."
Cybele says, "Yikes mez..."
][mez][ says, "Yeah it sux, trooly:)"
Cybele says, "It's snowing hailing & sleeting all at the same time here."
][mez][ says, "Wow Cybele, all seasons in 1 daze, heh?;)"
Laura_Sullivan says, "I'm here in Florida, with 80 degree weather and loads of sunshine... (compensates for small-town life...)"
Helen says, "Are we practicing until the hour turns?"
][mez][ says, "How do u page again please/"
Deena says, "Mez, just type page PLAYER NAME and MESSAGE"
][mez][ says, "Thx deena:)"
Pold says, "Hello, I'm from Denmark and it 22 here, which is OK - Guess I'll have a beer."
Deena hands Pold a never ending beer
Pold says, "Thanks!"
Helen says, "Welcome Pold! Where in Denmark?"
Pold says, "Aarhus, where we had the Hypertext conference last summer."
trbell says, "Is it snowing in WI yet. temp is over 80 in TN"
Cybele says, "Yes Tom, its doing everything at once here, except for being warm."
Deena hands round never ending drinks and rounds of Genius to all
Cybele says, "Good to see some new faces..."

E-poetry Gossip and Squeak
Deena says, "Geoffrey, how is the E poetry conference? Who spoke, what happened?"
Deena says, "I wish I coulda been there!"
Laura_Sullivan says, "Cybele where was this epoetry gig?"
Cybele says, "Laura, I believe it was in Buffalo, New York, right Geoffrey?"
trbell says, "Jim, what's squeak?"
Geoffrey_Gatza says, "Yes it was in Buffalo. It wasn't advertised well"
Deena says, ""Yeah, I hadn't heard about it"
Nathaniel Stern says, "Nor I. And I am in Ithaca!"

Geoffrey_Gatza says, "The epoetry thing was really nice Jim Rosenberg gave a tutorial on VKB and Squeak. Simon Biggs had a demonstration of his CD, Virtual Reality demos ... it was a great time""
Cybele says, "What did Jim show with squeak?"
Deena says, "I have been having fun with squeak, but keep getting caught up in the games. Has Jim done some neat stuff with squeak?"
trbell says, "What is squeak?"
Deena passes out squeaky toys for all.
Cybele says, "Geoffrey, did you see Jim Rosenberg's squeak presentation, can you say anything about it?"

Editor's note: Message from Jim Rosenberg : How was the epoetry conference? For a 1-day mini-conference it was pretty good. The big news for me was the work of Simon Biggs, which totally blew me away. I wasn't familiar with his stuff. > A couple of people on the MOO wanted to know what squeak was and what was the URL. I have the download, but lost the URL. Squeak is a reimplementation of Smalltalk 80 that runs on nearly everything in sight. The real news is not so much Squeak itself as Morphic, its new graphics paradigm. This makes it supremely easy to cook up your own bits of behavior. In Buffalo I assembled a nested word cluster live in front of an audience starting only with .gif files in the file system!!! The old way this would have taken me a couple of hours, easily. I'll show you all this stuff somewhere along the way in College Park. Try www.squeak.org.

More Starting Chatter
Deena says, "Nathaniel, you and Geoffrey aren't too far apart then..."
trbell says, "Was thinking of relocating"
Cybele says, "Is Jim Andrews here?"
Deena is glad Kate and all could make it and hands round cybercookies that actually taste good
Nathaniel Stern says, "Cool! Geoff, I seem to have run out of cigarettes; think you can help me out?"
][mez][ says, "Ehehe"
Deena hands both Nathaniel and Geoff magic ashtrays that take in all the cyberspace motes and turn them into lovely smoke
Geoffrey_Gatza says, "I have a full pack right here""
Nathaniel Stern puffs puffs puffs
Geoffrey_Gatza light a smoke and hands to nat
][mez][ says, "How many smokers here?" ][mez][ says, "[just curious]"
nm (Nick Monfort) arrives from Courtyard
][mez][ says, "Heya NM:)"
Nick Monfort has disconnected.
Julianne and Deena say, "Hi Nick"
Travis Alber arrives. Deena says, "Hi Travis"
Travis says, "Hello everyone"
][mez][ says, "Oops didn't stay long:)"
Nick Monfort has connected.
Deena says, "This is a weird connection today--we had a new room that disappeared when I loaded a webshow"
Nick Monfort says, "Hi, things are partly working in my Mac OS X browser here .. may have to try a different browser."
Bill.Cole suddenly steps out of the shadows.
Deena goes to get a real drink for just a moment--any chat or how to moo questions before we get started?"
Cybele says, "What browser is a mac OS X browser?"
Nathaniel Stern says, "I'm running 9.1 on IE5 with no problems. May want to restart in classic"
][mez][ says, "How.Dee bill"
Deena says, "Hi Bill"
trbell says, "Listening to Billy Collins"
Bill.Cole says, "Hi, mez. Hi, all."
Nicki arrives.
Deena says, "Mac OS X is unix,..think it is the same browser"
Deena says, "I am on my new machine but still using 9.2 with netscape so far so good"
Deena says, "Hi Nicki"
Bill.Cole says, "I'm using OSX, what's the question?"
Nicki says, "Hi Deena"
][mez][ says, "Heya nick.E:)"
Kate Pullinger says, "Is that Nicki Hastie?""
Nathaniel Stern smiles with glee @ all the Mac users in the room. those with PCs get a reassuring nod that everything will be OK...
Nicki says, "Hi Kate - yes it's me - I didn't get any takers in chat"
Kate Pullinger says, "I thought not. what a drag.""
Nicki says, "It misbehaved itself"
Deena says, "Nicki, which chat was that...apologies if we have scheduled simultaneously..."
Nicki says, "Deena, no it's okay - it was a chat in trAce Writing School scheduled an hour earlier."
Deena says, "Oh good. "
trbell says, "Where are the crystal goblets and wine"
Deena hands out rainbow crystal goblets and waterford wine just for Tom
Cleo (Claire Dinsmore), Christian Bech, and Mark Marino quietly enter.
][mez][ says, "L.lola mark:)"
Nathaniel Stern hopes Tom will share; hands the puff-puff-give back to Geoff
trbell says, "Am I the only imbiber?"
Geoffrey_Gatza says, "Thanks""
Deena hands round enough rainbow goblets and the finest wine of all for all
Helen says, "Shall we get started?"
][mez][ [offers dot sm][f][udges 4 all]
][mez][ says, "Sure helen"
Deena says, "Yes let's.. people are still coming in, so we can expect some repeats"
Cleo says, "I think we should wait a few"
Geoffrey_Gatza says, "Cheers to all"
Vika Zafrin arrives.Free_Guest wavers and vanishes into insubstantial mist.Free Guest arrives.
Christian_Bech [to Pold]: Hej
Deena says, "Hi Vika"
vika says, "Hello, all. Forgive in advance - am lagged"

Introducing Ourselves and the ELO Gallery
Deena says, "As you guys probably know, the Electronic Literature Organization had a great symposium April 6 -8.We had a gallery that featured 50 of the best hypertext/new media/electronic works around."
Nathaniel Stern blushes
Deena says, "But we didn't have time to go through and look at all of the works and talk with the authors and explore trends and influences and..."
Cleo says, "I hate the word 'trends' "
Deena hands round trend setters, hatters, and haters
Deena says, "So, we are going to take an hour here on an archived chat to let some of the authors take us around their works and introduce us to what they are doing and why they are doing it. So a big official welcome to the ELO Gallery follow up chat!"
Deena hands round balloon champagne glasses to toast the authors.
Deena shares a URL. (http://www.eliterature.org/state/galleryartists.shtml) and says, "You can see the list of contributors in the URL that should have opened in the new window"
Cleo says, "It seems it's only us artists here"
Helen says, "We're the people who are most interested in each others' work!"
][mez][ says, "Yr rite, Cleo........"
Julianne raises her (their) glasses in a toast
Bill.Cole is not an artist.
Cleo says, "Welcome Bill, glad to see someone is interested!"
Margaret arrives. Nick Monfort has disconnected.
Free_Guest says, "Well I'm more of a reader than a writer"
][mez][ says, "Ahh, I 'm wrong, then....."
Bill.Cole smiles. Bill.Cole says, "Oops, smiles...."
vika says, "So am I, then"
MOO guest arrives..>> MOO_guest is now known as Diana_Slattery. Deena welcomes Diana Slattery
Julianne thinks she (they) herself (themselves) is (are) sort of an artist, but didn't have anything in the show, and is (are) very interested
Nathaniel Stern nods at Julianne and chugchugchugs
Deena says, "Ok, would everyone just introduce themselves so we can see who is here at the party?"
MOO_guest says, "Diana here--not sure what identity I'm in..."
Nick Monfort has connected.
vika says, "OK Deena, my name is Vika Zafrin, I am at Brown studying Italian (finished) and Humanities Computing (ongoing)."
][mez][[ = word + code.smith.tress
Free_Guest says, "I'm Soeren Pold - I'm a literary critic and theorists + teacher - at the univ. of Aarhus."
Nicki says, "Hi, I'm Nicki Hastie - here to view the gallery - usually hang about at trAce"
Laura_Sullivan says, "Laura Sullivan here, doctoral student at Univ of Florida, working with Greg Ulmer. I study the discourse and industry of cosmetics, and I 'm working with new modes of writing and critique, esp in hypertext."
MOO_guest says, "Hi Laura, we meet again"
Laura_Sullivan says, "Yes, Diana--I've been sharing about your work with loads of people here..."
Diana shivers
Bill Bly and Mark Marino arrive.
Cybele says, "I seem to be having about a 30 sec lag..."
][mez][ says, "Me 2 cybele"
trbell says, "Tom bell, psychologist, poet, and grandfather"
Helen says, "I'm Helen Whitehead, trAce-ite in Nottingham, and co-host of the chat. Editor and web writer and keen reader of all these works -- though it'll take a bit of time!"
Margaret says, "Hi everyone just come to watch. I am a trAce member"
Bill.Cole says, "Bill Cole. PhD student at University of Georgia. Working on dissertation on teaching literature in/with MOOs."
Deena says, "Deena, incurable hypertext new media elit addict and cohost for the trAce ELO chats"
Cybele) says, "I'm mIEKAL aND & I work in many media including visual verbal literation, improvised music, hypertext & creating digital wilderness..."
linda.c says, "Linda Caroli, Australian editor of fineArt forum, hypertext writer, postgrad in writing at uni of queensland""
BBly says, "Hi all -- Bill Bly, lucky to be here!"
Kate Pullinger says, "Research fellow at trAce""
Christian_Bech says, "I'm Christian Bech - teaching assistant in Multimedia Aesthetics at the University of Aarhus, Denmark"
Geoffrey_Gatza says, "Hi I am the editor of BlazeVOK2k2 and soon a graduate of college in accounting and literature. Am working on an epic poem of Superman and other Flash based works of lit."
Mark Marino says, ""Mark, editor of Bunk Magazine, student of hypertext"
Travis Alber says, "Travis alber: multimedia artist by day (and night, when she can swing it). My day job? well...interactive pieces that have less to do with stories and more to do with money, but that's how it goes, eh?"
Mark_Marino says, "Travis greetings" Travis nods in Mark's direction.
Deena welcomes everyone and thanks them for the introductions :)"
Claire Dinsmore's The Dazzle as Question
Deena says, "Cleo/claire, do you want to start us off by describing Dazzle as Question?"
Cleo says, "Brb"
Julianne says, "Yes, sorry...The!"
Cleo says, "How does one cut n' paste in here?"
Deena says, "Try typing @paste---"
Cleo says, "I'm an artist/writer whose creative acts/taste has always been very right brain. This piece is about what happens to one's identity as a creator/one's work in the digital realm. My statement about the piece can be seen here: http://rhizome.org/object.rhiz?2572. I think the lack of control within this medium makes that rather a given [i.e., the a given work is, at least somewhat, re-created upon each viewing, by the platform, etc.]"
Cleo says, "[the statement in ELO has been edited - not to my satisfaction]."
Julianne says, "Cleo, how frustrating..."
Cleo says, "This says it best."
Cleo says, "Now, how do I put in a URL?"
Deena says, "To share a URL, type @URL http://whatever"
Cleo says, "Simply -the piece is about the effect of the digital on creation/creator; how much this realm draws and seduces, yet erases the distinction of one's marks with only a basic set of code being useable, and each platform often 'reading' those particulars differently."
linda.c says, "What do you mean erases the distinction of one's marks? I like the idea."
Cleo says, " 'Control,' 'Identity,' what they mean and become ..."
Cleo says, "Because what one creates on their monitor, what one intends, is distorted/recreated by a given viewers platform. meaning interpreted by influences outside of content/by the form, media/um itself."
][mez][ says, "Cood.nt agree more Cleo..."
Helen says, "You're right Claire -- one can entirely lose something very important when written, because the viewers don't get to it, or otherwise ignore it, as is possible with links and choices"

Nathaniel Stern's hektor.net
Deena says, "Nathaniel, would you like to jump in and introduce yourself and Hektor.net?"
Nathaniel Stern says, "Sure. Nathaniel Stern here. am currently an artist in residence @ Cornell University, working mostly with memory and storytelling in interactive art and performance."
Deena says, "Nathan, can you tell us about hektor.net?"
Nathaniel Stern says, "Hektor.net is a navigable artsite of video poetry (recommended for fast connection) as part of the "Non-aggressive narrative (NAN) "
Deena says, "Nathan, what do you mean by non-aggressive narrative?"
Nathaniel Stern says, "The NAN is an affectionate name for stories as "Propositions" instead of linear tales..."
MOO_guest says, "Stories as propositions? more, more..."
Helen says, "Why is linear = addressive? Helen says, "<sorry bad typing, meant why is linear = aggressive>"
"Linda.c says, "Helen, I liked you word, addressive - seemed to fit the context""
Deena says, "NAN is the Non Agressive Narrator?"
Nathaniel Stern says, "I pull a lot from Benjamin and Ermarth as my inspiration. perhaps rather than typing a lot out, you could take a look at my statement - http://NathanielStern.com/statement.html..."
Geoffrey_Gatza says, "Because linear is a progression based locations set needing a place to go after"
loui arrives.Deena says, "Hi Loui, we are celebrating the ELO gallery"
Deena says, "We can continue to weave conversations back and forth--"
][mez][ we][class][aves + proposition prods, all gangle [i's]eyes & s][ilent][poke.n finga blurred....
Nathaniel Stern says, "NAN (non-aggressive narrative) is my affectionate/playful name for what I try to do with my viewers. linear is not necessarily aggressive. I like to think of my narrative form as co-invented rather than told."
Cybele says, "What makes them co-invented Nathaniel?"
Geoffrey_Gatza says, "It could be aggressive as it has a controlled lead over the visitor, but I am inclined to not see it as aggressive"
linda.c says, "I think the equation of creation and navigation is really quite interesting ... make me think all those colonial explorers must have thought they were creating the world as they passed through it."
][mez][ ag.gre][p][.vates + re.vulv][a][s in2 dev.oh.lut]e[][ionary gap.pages
Helen says, "You have to embrace the co-invention/co-authorship and not be freaked by it, as many people are who have moved from single-author controlled environments (like print)"
Geoffrey_Gatza says, "Not really a given, a non linear function for the web is what makes it innovative"
Nathaniel Stern says, "Thanks, Helen. Cybele, it really depends on which piece we are discussing. With hektor.net for example, there are 13 navigable video poems which reveal more and more of hektor's person, without telling a referent. as the NAN continues, several characters reveal more of themselves, and viewers piece together their own identities/stories/characters, etc."
Deena says, ""Yes, and accept the browser as part of the author."
trbell says, "Nathaniel, is NAN related to langpo trends in this direction?"
Nathaniel Stern says, "Trbell - good question. tough question. My best answer is to tell you that my personal influence has come more from Benjamin's "The storyteller" and Ermarth's "Sequel to History.""

Claire Carre's Nostalgia
Laura_Sullivan says, "Did anyone else have a chance to look at the 'Nostalgia' piece in the gallery? An interesting musing on the linear/non-linear and related questions in terms of electronic art pieces..."
Diana_Slattery says, "There's a strong meme of co-creation, collaboration, shared cooperative works being passed around, I think."
][mez][ marvel][com(ma)ic][s @ zuch re:veal.*tions
Helen says, "Diana, I agree - perhaps it is a time when works are increasingly authored less by single persons, for a variety of reasons"

Wikis
Cybele says, "I wonder if anyone else is doing work in wikis?"
Diana_Slattery says, "Wikis?" linda.c says, "What's wikis?"" Deena says, "Yes, please explain wikis"
Helen says, "Some of the trAce people are working in wikis, experimentally"
Cybele says, "Wikis are web based sites that are editable by anyone that views them."
][mez][ .is. .h.(e)a(d)][it][es.less
Cybele says, "I'm setting up a wiki to do a group hypertext collaboration...& actually squeak & php can run different versions of wikis."
Helen says, "MIEKAL will it be open to anyone to join or are you inviting specific collaborators?"
Cybele says, "Well theoretically wikis are open to anyone on the net... but I suppose one could keep an url private among certain users."

Offline
Nick Monfort says, "Sorry, can't get onto the MOO properly. I'll read the transcript; sorry to annoy with my reconnect attempts..."Nick Monfort has disconnected.
][mez][ dr][l][inks link.age power in short, s.harp. bursts....
Deena hands Nick Monfort a better connection with linkage power
][mez][ re:aches out 2Nick Monfort, stretching a breath 10.drill wander.ing in yr di.wreck.tion

Diana Slattery's Glide
Deena says, "Diana, did you want to talk about the associative nature in Glide?"
Diana_Slattery says, "The power of the link, yes, Friday I was working with Bill Brubaker on programming a new Glide thing where the glyphs form mazes. Defining behaviors--"Link-seeking behavior" and also preferences of types of links, where the formations promote increased connectivity and visual flow in the whole as it is being constructed."
][mez][ feels her sen.s][t][ory mode wide.N, glyping & gli.ding][!][...
Mark_Marino says, "Glide provides dynamic possibilities for collaborative/collabyrinthian interaction that transcends text messages to visual/aural communications."
Cybele says, "What's Glide?"
Helen says, "I think Glide is a whole medium in itself..."
Cleo says, "A dream ..."
Mark_Marino says, "Agreed (w/ Helen)"
Laura_Sullivan says, "Diana's glide glyphs linking is about connection, forming connections, in my work I 'm interested in setting up connections that are unorthodox, radical juxtapositions somewhat inspired by eisensteinian montage, thinking about the relationship between subjectivity and media messages, for example, in a way enabled through hypertext linking that can't be conveyed in print..."
Diana_Slattery says, "You got it! the for real collabyrinth to do these communication visually with multiple users in real time is scheduled to be online early May. If anyone is interested in being part of the beta test, let me know! "
Cybele says, "Is there such a thing as an unorthodox link at this point in digital history? I cant imagine such a thing."
Deena says, "Is there such a thing as an orthodox link? "
Laura_Sullivan says, "Cybele, by unorthodox, I mean realms of experience that are usually not thought of together, such as the linking of a dream to an analytical point about the oppressiveness of the political economy"
Deena says, "Hmmm...diana, so unorthodox links are more of a subconscious, implicit association? Have others used implicit rather than explicit linking?"
][mez][ media ewes & moans [:)
Deena says, "Mez, what do you mean by the media eyes and moans? Deena hands mez a media's new eyeball"
][mez][ says, "Deena....media ewes & moans...media u..media & u...moaning as in rewiring the clinical 2 splice in the bio.logica][u][l..."
]Mark_Marino says, "Glide also demonstrates a digital-only language one that is not merely a representation of language."
Deena runs through the list to see who has not introduced their pieces...Bill Bly? Vika? other artists, could you introduce your piece and list a url ?"

Geoffrey Gatza and Deena Larsen's E:electron
Geoffrey_Gatza says, "Deena and I collaborated on our gallery piece e:electron and it was a wonderful creation by developing what Glazier sees as a multiple I through different valences of existence."
Laura_Sullivan says, "Geoffrey, I might beg to differ on what makes the web innovative -- I think the associative nature of the web is also key, and one can focus on associative dimensions in a piece without necessarily using the non-linear aspect (focus on the power of the link, about which much more needs to be theorized...)"
Nathaniel Stern says, "Deena/Geoff - pls tell more about your work"
Deena says, "E:Electron has three separate parts--a periodic table of elements poem, an associative word poem for each element, and an orbital metacommentary poem"
Deena says, "Geoffrey, how do you see linking in e:electron?"
Geoffrey_Gatza says, "Linking is very important as it is relations that are affected by the mouse overs and the actual action of clicking."

Vika Zafrin's RolandHT
vika says, "RolandHT is an attempt to explore Roland's character -- not through one of the many works written about him, but through interlinked selected passages from such works, thematically, as a composite (and often self-contradictory) character. http://www.wordsend.org"
Deena says, "So, vika, you too are interlinking and connecting but to show one historical figure through many accounts..."
Mark_Marino says, "Vika, have you set out initial parameters for audience participation in your thesis?"
vika says, "Mark, no, not yet. I feel that I need to do too much with the project still to get it to the point where I am comfortable presenting it as a complete work. Then people can interact with it, but I'm not sure how that's going to be set up technically (if that's what you meant)."

Laura Sullivan's beautopia
Laura_Sullivan says, "My piece is called beautopia and it's at http://web.nwe.ufl.edu/~sullivan/butopia/start.html"
Helen says, "Laura, I'm interested to hear that, because I was wondering how far you felt hypertext was particularly useful as a medium to express your ideas"
Laura_Sullivan says, "Helen, very useful indeed..."
Diana_Slattery says, "I think I know what Laura's saying about unorthodox--revealing connections that are implicit, and intentioning but not necessarily conscious and communicating?"
Laura_Sullivan says, "More on unorthodoxy -- my dissertation director Ulmer was just reminding me the other day that the most powerful juxtapositions are often those in which the distance between elements is great, by creating a link between such seemingly disparate elements, I want the reader-viewer to think about how they're related. the literal link in hypertext sets up a connection that would have to be narrativized in print (or suggested by page layout, for ex)"
Cleo says, "I completely agree, Laura - a more digressive link excites much more than a straight one, shall we say. It pushes harder, stretches the mind. I think that's one of the exceedingly magical possibilities of hypertext."

Links, tools, and mediums
Deena says, "I think associations and connections and links are key to what so many of us are doing..."
Deena says, "Diana, could you elaborate on collabyrinth?"
Cybele says, "@more rest" Deena hands cybele/meikal a pillow to rest
trbell says, "Is there anything new that one can use without investing a lot of money, equipment, and time learning?"
Cleo says, "This media/um is almost a generator in itself. The producer. what becomes of one's identity/that of the work [its meaning] when one disavows the control [always relative of course ...] that they've known in the 'real' world? what happens to our culture's 'cult of personality' obsession here?"
][mez][ says, "Helen + claire>> that's y I construct my work on various absorption lvls, & load it in such a way as 2 n.sure that all netizens can acc.cess @ least 1 version...."

Cults of interactivity
Deena says, "Claire/Cleo, that is a great point--that the identity of the work changes as one disavows control. How have other authors seen that in their works?"
vika says, "Deena, I've seen the desire for that in my audience -- they want to participate in the project earlier than I am willing to allow them to. Also, my thesis advisor is pushing for same - audience participation, and it's difficult to find a balance point"
Cleo says, "One is choosing certain limits, but never knows what those might be ..."
Free_Guest says, "One interesting thing, is when you feel somebody has taken hold of the other end of the link"
Nathaniel Stern says, "I find all too often with interactive / digital art objects that we are not asking often enough why the viewer could even want to interact.."
Mark_Marino says, "Perhaps, Cleo, there is a cult of interactivity."
Cleo says, "Well, the question of the 'author' has been at the forefront of lit. crit. for many a year - I think we all question it really. "
Deena says, "How do you authors--and you readers--view audience participation and interaction?"
][mez][ codes 4 in.voluntary t.wi][n][ces, g.host meta.4s & drenching tugging hypa.l.inkages....
Laura_Sullivan says, "I also can envision that at times viewers of my hypertext might click on a link, view the new screen, then go back to the previous screen to remind themselves of the previous context and to see what the linking word(s)/image was..."
Deena hands round butterfly nets to chase all the raging flows of thought...

Helen Whitehead's Web, Warp,and Weft
Helen says, "It wasn't that far from my piece, Web, Warp, and Weft which is ALSO about links and connections between apparently separate fields -- textile making and the Web -- hypertext (and new media's other technologies) can help us explore these things, whether cosmetics or the story of Roland. This is REAL use of the link"
Cybele says, "Since futurism & pataphysics in the beginning of the 20th century we've become entrained to expect the unorthodox & marvelous...we have a 100 years of that sensibility built into our aesthetics."
Geoffrey_Gatza says, "The action and intent of the viewer is important to consider in web creations"
Deena says, "Helen, could you describe web waft and warp?"

Travis Alber's WhoIsFlora.net
Travis says, " My project is WhoIsFlora.net -- it's an attempt to provide a linear narrative (constructed from old postcards and in a forced order), as well as to construct meaning by allowing the user to uncover unordered messages and pieces of meaning. Audience participation creates most of the piece, around a framework."
Helen says, "Yes, WhoisFlora is another good example -- using hypertext to explore a life and character is such a good use, that linear biography should become extinct!"

Bill Bly's We Descend
BBly says, "Sorry, took a side trip to E:Electron for a few. We Descend is a by now conventional Storyspace hypertext archive of related fragmentary documents by many authors over a long period of time in the far future. There's an excerpt at
http://wordcircuits.com/gallery/descend/Cover.htm."

Parameters
Deena says, "Mark, the question you asked Vika is a good question for all the writers here--how have you set out the parameters for your viewers and readers?"
Helen says, "With web warp and weft I started with opening to contributors and when they had all contributed I interpreted their responses to the questions of how textile making and web making are linked. As authors it is good to invite participation and then take back control by responding again to what has been contributed."
][mez][ e.vokes the cur][ed][ious, offas platters of net.wurks that strtch out & re.wire a viewa's x.pect][oran][tations... Laura_Sullivan says, "Regarding control and participation, lately I 've been wanting to question how we often get so excited about a reader-viewer having multiple choices for links in a text, and might at times replicate a logic of celebrating 'freedom' and 'choice' that is endemic to capitalism, for example..."
trbell says, "I see my kids with their great computer and phone tools to communicate walking around in their own little worlds"
Bill.Cole [to Laura_Sullivan]: Good point. I think that many "Choice" available is illusory.... I gave a paper on this effect in Online Caroline at HT01.

BlasValdez' Pain and vice versa
blas arrives.
Deena says, "Hi Blas, welcome to chaos central...no seriously, we are introducing our works and exploring how authors set up interactions with readers of hypertext."
Deena introduces Valdez Blas to the assembled crowd and says that Pain and Vice Versa is described at http://www.eliterature.org/state/work-ValdezB.shtml"
Deena applauds the many voices here...

Weighty links and interactions
BBly says, "Has anyone figured out how to give a link *weight* or momentum?"
Cleo says, "Can you elaborate Bill?"
vika says, "Bill, each link in my project (in the main part of it) opens up a "Transitional" blurb, which explicates the connection. It's a hack job and should be improved, but I've found the idea to be helpful to readers in this context."
Mark_Marino says, "What of using links to provide an audience with many means of access rather than means of changing the piece? I'm not sure I see that as anti-interactive or over-centered. "
][mez][ says, "BBly>> weight + mo.men.tum = the use a melange of code & lilting word construction via my email [mezangelled][texts....."
Cybele says, "Bill you mean like intelligent browsing, where a viewer inputs some data about themselves& then decisions are made based on that?
Helen says, "The context of a link should provide some kind of weight -- it's one of the skills required of new media authors....."
BBly says, "Strikes me that one can regard a link as a verb rather than a noun (subject or object) as such, it ought to be able to be intensified, like a note in music maybe..."
Deena says, "Hmmm...yes, Bill, as Jim Rosenberg's connective symbols are considered prepositions.." Deena runs around with the notion of links are verbs and jumps over the moon.
Laura_Sullivan says, "Bill, I 'd love to see your paper..."
Deena says, "Bill, do you have that URL?"
BBly says, "Laura, I have to write it first!"
trbell says, "What is interaction and collaboration today?"
Christian_Bech says, "Trbell, du you see interaction and collaboration as the same thing?"
trbell says, "May be having a bad day but the more sophisticated the communication system I think the less communication occurs"
Nathaniel Stern says, "I don't know if we should necessarily equate navigable=interactive. "
][mez][ a.xis][ts][ + ack.cesses, pro.][e][moting the slip & motion

Non-hypertexts in the Room
Cleo says, "Hey, mine isn't hypertext!"
Deena says, "Hey, good point, Claire--your work, and Meikal's provide a one way through the work--a text show and an art show...how do you guys see the readers going through your works?"
Cleo says, "I would say it's more choreography really. setting up a rhythm was the most important thing for me."
Deena thinks Cleo's work and Meikal's are haunting and lovely but in entirely different ways
Cybele says, "But I have been largely disappointed about node & links.."
Nathaniel Stern says, "Cleo, now you're talking! I swing therefore I am"
Deena says, "So you guys are controlling the entire experience?"
Cleo says, "The meaning inferred by that rhythm, placing emphasis in time."

mEIKAL aND's SeedSigns for Philadelpho
Deena says, "meikel/cybele, your flash piece, SeedSigns for Philadelpho works in much the same way as Dazzle does--you provide a viewing experience. I liked the way that you celebrated Philadelpho's life within the seeds--this was a touching and fitting memorium. Could you introduce SeedSigns and talk about it?"
Cybele says, "The particular piece SEEDSIGNS is definitely not a hypertext..It's just low budget cinema really..."
Cybele says, "I had great hopes 15 years ago after reading Ted Nelson's books...But the promise of that kind of linking still seems far away."
Cybele says, "Deena, one of the things I like about flash delivered over the net is that the experience is still largely individualized, because sound & syncing run at different rates delivered over the net."
Laura_Sullivan says, "At ELO symposium in LA Caitlin Fisher made a distinction that's made me think, between non-linear hypertext types of work and what she called more cinematic linear pieces, made in flash, director, etc. she was lamenting the fact that her students mostly prefer the latter. I think that hypertexts can also be 'experiences' as Stuart Moulthrop was talking about, similar to these cinematic texts..."
Mark_Marino says, "Laura, what was the end of this idea, where does it lead (you wrote emight at times replicate a logic of celebrating 'freedom' and 'choice' that is endemic to capitalism, for example...)"

Wrestling Control
Helen says, "For a real experience there HAS to be some element of control - including perhaps illusory links if that's what it takes"
Nathaniel Stern swings from his chandelier and inadvertently kicks a hole in his wall. shit.
][mez][ ditt.ohs, cs the haunt.ting][les][ & celeb.rates][it high.lee][
Deena hastily makes the hole in the wall a permanent part of the web art around here and hands Nathaniel another beer.
Nathaniel Stern chugs
linda.c says, "I find that readers/users must expect something indefinable from links. I've seen people sit at computers, just clicking on everything and obviously reading. I wonder what they are looking for."
linda.c says, "I mean obviously not reading ...
vika says, "I've got to go, all. Hooray for transcripts! Thank you for all the work(s)."
Cleo says, "Goodbye Vika - check your mail!"
Deena says, "Thanks Vika..the transcript will be on the trAce site and on ELO http://www.eliterature.org click on community" The housekeeper arrives to remove vika.

Link Expectations
Helen says, "Links aren't just non-linear hypertext. In new media, links are made in many ways not available off-screen"
Nathaniel Stern says, "Good point helen. hypertext have been around for ages; and we are only beginning to master the art."
][mez][ wurks + w(h)atches, all binary ][g][limp][sed][....
Cleo says, "A linked/hypertext piece requires more work on the part of the viewer: people are lazy!"
Deena says, "Good point linda... All, what do you think people expect in links?"
linda.c says, "But do you wonder what they get from that practice - cos many people seem to do it automatically "
Laura_Sullivan says, "Linda, it seems there's a difference in approach by experienced folks who are familiar with complex new media pieces and/or games, and folks who are new to these forms, the latter don't seem to expect the pleasure to come from discovering links or having complex navigation..."
Diana_Slattery says, ""Only connect"
"Deena hands round the unexpected pleasures of connections.
Helen says, "It's very much a generational thing -- I was tutoring a 15-year-old today. He has no problem with links -- of any new media kind - whereas so many print readers I encounter cannot comprehend them at all"
Cleo says, "I hope it will continue to evolve and that we shall never 'master' it, that is, that it shall remain this vital."
Geoffrey_Gatza says, "I expect a link to be a gateway""
Deena says, "Geoffrey, could you explain? a gateway to somewhere else? or "
Geoffrey_Gatza says, "Sorry for being elliptical, I mean a gateway as a stopping point to contemplate as well as a point in which one can venture to another space, presently and at a future point."
][mez][ cs the connex.ion][s + lec.trons +][.....
Bill.Cole says, "I still rather like Landow's idea of rhetorics of arrival and departure when it comes to links. "
Mark_Marino says, "Some heavy-clickers (link-seekers), do not stop and smell the lexias."
Laura_Sullivan says, "Mark, part of what I 'm interested in politically is a kind of fetishization of consumerist logic, one that occurs in say microsoft ads for globally connecting the world, or in the u.s. pres encouraging us to buy more stuff, and at times in post- types of theories (so-called post-marxism, and post-structuralist theories that emphasize identity) in which class is configured entirely in terms of lifestyle, consumption, income, etc..."
Diana_Slattery says, "That's funny mark"
Bill.Cole [to Mark_Marino]: I think some readers want to form a mental
map of the possibilities of a text before settling in to read.
Deena hands round vases and potpourris for the lexias.

Cat Break
Geoffrey_Gatza says, "Blaze, my cat, enters the chat "Bkj sduihf s segjn "a zuam kind of notion I think.""
Deena's cat sophie takes over the computer to say hi to blaze.
Geoffrey_Gatza's cat says, "Meow""

Expectations and Commitments
Deena says, "Writers what is the main thing that you want a person to get out of your work? Readers, what is the main thing you want to get out of playing with and exploring a work?"
Diana_Slattery says, "Must move on now, bye to all..."
The housekeeper arrives to remove Diana_Slattery.
Nathaniel Stern says, "How much time do we each, individually, spend on every hypertext work sent our way? when one goes to a digital art show, they often ask "What does this do" instead of "What is this about" we have to consider this outlook when making new works, and try to help our viewers read outside the box (both physical and not so)"
Pold arrives.
Deena says, "Welcome back Pold. The question is what do readers want out of a new media/elit/etc piece"
Deena says, "Good point Nathaniel. I wish I could spend the hours needed for each work, but I too pick and choose..."
Nathaniel Stern says, "We all do. no one would spend the time they would with Ulysses in an online work..."
Deena says, "Yet as writers, we expect that people WILL spend that time on our work..."
Cleo says, "Thinking is so much more intimate with hypertext than I often find it to be with linear text, because I get deeper inside the creator, see how her/his mind works. It feeds curiosity ..."
BBly says, "Hm. Many voices are like lines in a sketch -- often can't see the outline of the story for a good while..."
Helen says, "Re: Bill's comment: like some people read the end of a book before they go back and read from the beginning"
Cybele says, "I rarely read any book from the beginning."
Helen says, "I read books again and again and each time get a re-run of the same experience (I forget the plot very quickly) - I also read my fave web works again and again, but diff each time...."
Deena hands Cleo and all mind borers to get deeper into the minds and souls of both readers and writers of this stuff.

Commercial Commentary
trbell says, "Say more, Laura"
Deena says, "Laura Sullivan's beautopia is a great commentary on advertising..."
][mez][ says, "Laura>> do u think this capitalistic/consumerism push is echoed in the need to produce object-defined wurks in terms of wurk viewable [as in a craft oriented perspective] as opposed 2 net.wurks that thru their very dependency on the net may not be as concretely accessible?"
Laura_Sullivan says, "I'm ideologically invested in a politics of class that retains marx's sense of class as related to production, that is whether owning class (owning means of production) or not. class now is discussed mostly in terms of folks' ability to buy"
linda.c says, "Yes I think there is a push for that to have an effect, say in the priorities of arts funding bodies and policy ... a lot of energy goes into 'demand' side rather than the creative"
][mez][ says, "Ab.so][u][lutely linda...."

Reading Styles
Deena says, "At first, I was interested in how people are using the media. now I find that I want to listen to what people are saying...There is a deeper emotional resonance with the new media than a paper work..Maybe it is because I expect to have to explore?"
Geoffrey_Gatza says, "I too am a haphazard reader. The progression of beginning to end was great in Harry Potter but for adult reading I prefer to jump and skip. If the author accommodates this then I am all the happier. Has anyone read "House of Leaves""
Mark_Marino says, "Hurray, house of leaves, hurray Pale Fire"
Pold says, "I've read House of Leaves, but a part from all the notes and indexes it is very Linear and depends on a plot, I think."
Geoffrey_Gatza says, "No it's Pynchonian in plot. You may the story from what is left behind. Its very 1970's but a good read for a dead tree"
Mark_Marino says, "But isn't house of leaves the reaction of the print medium to (against') the digital? "
Deena says, "Do you guys have a URL for Pale Fire?"
Cleo says, "It's a novel by Nabokov"
Deena says, "Thanks Claire...I gotta get that one."
Laura_Sullivan says, "I used to teach hypertexts as exclusively multilinear, then I was asked to make a piece that would run on its own, with refresh tags, and therefore would be linear. it got me to questioning why I was enamored with multilinearity. Now I think the choice on the design end as to whether to include multiple links/paths should be dictated by the context of a particular piece..."
Helen says, "Laura, I went through the same process..."
Deena says, "Laura, yes, I think the multilinearity, animation, structure of a piece depends on the message you want to get out"
Nathaniel Stern says, "Yes and no. we need to put that work in. we revel in it. but again, who is our audience? how can we break it down in ways they they will interact/navigate, continue to do so, and get something out of it? especially knowing that most viewers of net.art are at work from 9-5 with a bloody boss-nlocker desktop call when she comes by..."
Deena says, "Good point Nathan. Who is our audience and how are they interacting with our work?"
Cleo says, "That's something I love about the web. Essentially free access to art info. You could argue that we must pay for our comps/ISP - but there is free access easily avail. at libraries and such"
][mez][ says, "Ns>>my question when I create is oft.10:......how ][k][not 2 mimick/reiterate sensory-driven templates, & yet create a document.ary like the holistically
d.termin][able][ed wurk like _][ad][Dressed in a Skin C.ode_."
Cybele says, "Or another example of multilinearity can be something like Alan Sondheim's work which involves no links whatsoever but the kind of associative linking we are talking about is intrinsic in the texts themselves."
Deena hands round bloody boss blockers to all and sundry to incorporate into our next works
Travis Travis smiles, waves a hearty goodbye to all and slips out the back. The housekeeper arrives to remove Travis.
Pold says, "As a matter of fact - that was why I liked it - the combination of plot and all the rest"
Mark_Marino says, "Laura, this is something I've wrestled with as well. Maybe I'll drag out my piece http://www.bunkmag.com/dandg/"
Laura_Sullivan says, "Mez, I see your point, and this is where the consumerist logic I 'm critiquing in terms of e-art theory and design crosses with the literal political economy in which we produce and distribute our work..."
][mez][ says, "Laura, yes, its n.teresting stuff...i've been curious about such craft/object oriented wurk 4 a long time, s.pecially in terms of how it is absorbed more readily in2 a pre.supposed canon..linear & driven as in 4m an economically rationalist perspectiff..."
Julianne says, "There is a large amusement park directly in front of my present lodgings ROFL"
][mez][ beta blocs + tan][cos & sine][dem s.witches
Deena says, "Wow, I knew an hour would not be enough to toast and celebrate and explore all these works..."
Nathaniel Stern wishes there was another pitcher
Deena hands round dead tree coasters and more pitchers.
Cleo says, "I love my dead trees I have to admit ..."
Pold says, "Mark Marino; it might be - why do you think that"
Mark_Marino says, "Pold, certain things that Danielewski has said in interviews, the subtextual and footnote ties into the chain link fence of print texts (with no hypertext ref's to be seen), the use of courier (the print-lovers font), and the relentlessly linear path of the plot."
Nathaniel Stern swipes @ bees harassing him close by...
Geoffrey_Gatza says, "Yes, Leaves pulls out all of the stops on a paper thing. It wants so badly to be interactive that some parts are in braille. I like it as a book""
Deena looks around at all her dead trees and doesn't begrudge the room at all
Cleo says, "Oh do deena - it's mindblowing ..."
Helen says, "Yes, people who aren't falling asleep may continue to chat and show off work, but some of us have to fold on the hour"
Bill.Cole says, "Before everyone leaves, is there anyone out there currently working in MOO as a literary form?"
Laura_Sullivan says, "To take into account the time investment required for my piece, I've tried to tell folks to whom I 've given the url that they will need a decent chunk of time to explore the work. How will others respond to this requirement? I 'm not sure. People who know me are interested in discovering some of what's in this text because they know it has an autobiographical element. for any viewer, though, I hope she discovers something about herself in the process of viewing, that my revelation of how I 'm implicated in dominant ideology gets her to thinking about her own complicity, for ex."
Deena says, "There is far too much here to cover: interactivity, reader expectations, author expectations, links, associations, greatly diverse works and more."
Julianne says, "Bill Cole: yes in Norway - ask Lisbeth Klastrup"
Deena says, "Does anyone have any last great comments on their works, the state of the art, etc?"
][mez][ says, "That's great laura, a wonder.full aim..."
Helen says, "Yes, there are MOOers at trAce"
Bill.Cole says, "Thanks, Julianne"
Julianne says, "Sorry, Lisbeth is in Denmark"
Deena hands round glasses of Genius and Guinness to all
Laura_Sullivan says, "Bill.cole, you might also connect with ron
broglio at georgia tech, who's doing work building moo spaces based on Blake"
Helen says, "Thanks everyone! Great chat!"

Mez' _][ad][Dressed in a Skin C.ode_
][mez][ says, "Hmm, haven't actually described my wurk, so I'll give that a quik spin::"
Deena says, "Yes, please do...mez"
][mez][ says, "The _n.hanced_ & _text_ versions in _][ad][Dressed in a Skin C.ode_ all stem from a basic net.wurk; 1 that is projected via email lists as an n.stinctive reaction 2 the data][in][flux/meniscus that su][pports][rrounds it. these email code.wurks n.capsulate my particular trajectory [in terms of net usage 2 d.fine/actualise the wurk] more aptly than these click n x.plore versions that r pre.sent in _][ad][Dressed in a Skin C.ode_ "
linda.c says, "It shows the great diversity, deena - that electronic writing is still in the making and that this is an open territory."
blas says, "As an net artists, whose work is mainly seen in the third world , where web connections are extremely slow, and only people with extremely fast computers and expensive web connections will be able to see my flash or QuickTime vr pieces, I think that class some how predestines my type of readers..."
Deena says, "Addressed in a skincode was explained and lauded at ELO, particularly by Kate Hayles"
Julianne says, "Thanks ][mez][ for connecting the email works to your URL works"
][mez][ says, "...all the _texts_ [and I use this term 2 n.clude the whole shebang, not just the typed components] should be able 2 b negotiated [in terms of meaning] from the very email core that I have constructed ini.tially, in ut][n][e][t][ro.........but I find that ppl r reluctant 2 do so........"
][mez][ says, "Yeah deena, I was told that....."
Cleo says, "I just want everyone to work on getting folks to actually READ new media works. "
Nathaniel Stern says, "I'd also like to take into consideration the revaluation of oral traditions through broadband technologies (MP3, Video, distribution) online. "
blas says, "As an net artists, whose work is mainly seen in the third world , where web connections are extremely slow, and only people with extremely fast computers and expensive web connections will be able to see my flash or QuickTime vr pieces, I think that class some how predestines my type of readers..."
Bill.Cole says, "Ooo, cool. BlakeMOOs!"

Closing up
Deena says, "Next month's chat will be devoted to WHAT elit is--and we will have lots of newcomers--so we can explain the time required to read and explore works"
][mez][ says, "No prob julianne:)"
Margaret says, ""Thank you everyone. Your discussion has certainly helped to crystallize my thoughts""
Laura_Sullivan says, "Kate was particularly talking about how certain works 'reconfigure subjectivity' but I was never sure what she meant by 'subjectivity' or 'reconfiguration'"
Margaret says, ""Bye everyone""
linda.c says, "Gotta run now. thanks for the chat. good luck with your works and never ending questions ..."
Nathaniel Stern says, "Thanks, y'all. it's been cheery moo fun."
Deena hands out crystals for our thoughts
][mez][ says, "Cya linda.c:)"
The housekeeper arrives to remove linda.c.
][mez][ says, "She didn't d.fine them laura?"
Deena says, "Kate Hayles? no, she didn't define real well..."
Margaret has disconnected.
Deena says, "We'll have to get her papers..."
Cleo says, "Farewell to those departing"
blas has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove blas.
Deena says, "We can stay and talk as long as we want.."
Laura_Sullivan says, "Mez, no not really, and I think in part that was because she focused on the intricacies of the texts themselves. I want to think about subjectivity in more social terms and so I think we have to move outside of textual focus, which Stuart m brought up in his remarks as well"
Deena says, "I apologize for not getting all introduced--wow, what a great and illustrative crowd!"
][mez][ says, "Ahh rite laura, makes sense..."
Nathaniel Stern says, "Bye y'all!"
][mez][ says, "Oops sense even"
Julianne says, "ELO is doing a post conference book that I hope will have the keynotes in it"
][mez][ says, "Cya ns:)"
Julianne says, "Sorry, trAce and ELO are..."
Laura_Sullivan says, "In other words, if we're saying that a text reconfigures a user's subjectivity, then we have to articulate what kind of subjectivity this viewer is bringing to a piece."
][mez][ says, "I'd lurve 2 get a copy, though I 'd much pre.furr if it was accessible as an eBook:)"
Deena has disconnected.
Cleo says, "Are some folks planning to stay around a while [in the MOO now that is)?"
Nathaniel Stern has disconnected. The housekeeper arrives to remove Nathaniel Stern.
The housekeeper arrives to cart Helen off to bed.
Pold says, "Mark Marino: I get that - still I don't know whether I'd juxtapose hypertext and House of Leaves - though HoL is definitely a very printed book, the same way as Oulipo experiments and Balzac novels (which I love)"
][mez][ says, "Of course, laura....learning 2 predict a users out.look in terms of how they may navigate/per.use a wurk is the first step in how 2 ][wo][manipulate this..."
BBly says, "Gotta go, dear friends -- thanks for all the good talk. Hope to see some of yinz soon!"
][mez][ says, "Cleo I have 2 go soon...wurk calls unfortunately..."
Laura_Sullivan says, "Good to meet up with you again, bill bly"
][mez][ says, "Cya BBly:)"
Cleo says, "Bye bill. may we meet again soon --"
Deena has connected.
][mez][ says, "I shood shuffle along as well, great chat all:)"
Julianne says, "Have a good Monday everyone and thanks Deena and
sponsors..."
Laura_Sullivan says, "I have to go as well, hopefully we can continue this discussion at another time at some point..."
Pold says, "Well gotta go too - get some sleep"
Bill.Cole [to Laura_Sullivan]: Were you asking about my Online Caroline paper earlier, It was heard to follow who was asking what to whom.
Julianne has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Julianne.
Geoffrey_Gatza says, "I too have to run. Thanks to everyone. Best" "
Deena says, "Sorry about that I got disconnected"
BBly has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove BBly.
Cleo says, "I understand - I 'm trying to get a freelance design project [huge!] out of my life ..."
Deena says, "Thanks so much everyone for coming!"
][mez][ says, "I'd lurve 2, lots 2 mull ova that has only been partially suggested here...."
Geoffrey_Gatza has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Geoffrey_Gatza.
Cybele has disconnected.
Pold says, "Thanks to everybody - interesting experience!"
Mark_Marino says, "Pold, right. You don't have to juxtapose them. I'd agree that both have a comparable joy of
flipping/clicking/discovering."
The housekeeper arrives to cart Margaret off to bed.
][mez][ says, "We should start a ELO symp chat on trAce..."
Cleo says, "This has been a great chat deena."
Cleo says, "The spirit/energy of the conference permeates ..."
Bill.Cole says, "Great chat, Deena."
Deena says, "Thanks Claire, it got pretty wild there!"
Mark_Marino says, "Thanks, Deena et al."
Deena says, "I will have to go through the log and see what I missed!"
][mez][ says, "Later all:) take care."
Christian_Bech says, "Goodnight"
Deena says, "Yes, we can feel the electricity still!!"
Pold has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Pold.
][mez][ has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove ][mez][.
Deena says, "Thanks again, you guys :"
Mark_Marino has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Mark_Marino.
Laura_Sullivan says, "How can we access the transcript, deena?"
Deena hands round parting glasses
Cleo says, "No pun intended, oui?"
Christian_Bech has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Christian_Bech.
Bill.Cole toasts and drinks.
Deena says, "Sure, puns are always intended :)"
Laura_Sullivan says, "Thanks deena -- what do you think of mez's suggestion of a elo symposium discussion on trAce?"
Deena says, "You can get the transcript after I edit it at http://www.eliterature.org"
Cleo says, "I would love it. I could have stayed chatting like that/this forever ..."
Deena says, "Yeah, the time this time just went by fast!"
Cleo says, "And at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk"
Deena says, "Http://www.eliterature.org/com/chatarchives.shtml"
Deena says, "Is the real URL..."
Deena says, "I had to look it up."
Bill.Cole says, "That was a blast. And there's another chat tonight in Nouspace for Computers & Writing Online."
The housekeeper arrives to cart Cybele off to bed.
Deena says, "It will be interesting to edit... I am going to start to post the raw files too, as threads get unsorted out"
Cleo says, "Where/how does one get there?"
Deena says, "Bill, who is speaking tonight?"
Deena says, "Oh, I forgot to announce the computers and writing conference!"
Cleo says, "That question was to bill C"
Deena says, "Darn!"
Deena says, "Well, we put it out on the eliterature newsgroup, and htlit"
Bill.Cole [to Deena]: Johndan Johnson-Eilola (sp?)
Deena says, "Oh, do a google on Nouspace and you can get in... that"
Cleo says, "I'm on the ELO mailing list, is that the newsgroup?"
Laura_Sullivan says, "Cool, enjoyed this chat, I 'll check out the transcript, thanks again and hopefully I 'll talk to y'all more soon..."
Deena says, "Ahh it is http://www.eaze.net:7000/"
Deena says, "Yep, the mailing list"
Laura_Sullivan has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Laura_Sullivan.
Cleo says, "Okay."
Cleo says, "Well, thanks again deena. see you soon I'm sure --"
Deena says, "Thanks"
Deena says, "Hope to see you in the flesh someday soon too"
Cleo says, "Bye"
Deena says, "Good night all"
Deena has disconnected.
Cleo says, "VERY soon!"
Cleo has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Cleo.
Bill.Cole says, "Nouspace is at http://www.eaze.net"
Bill.Cole says, "Oops, never mind."
Bill.Cole tiptoes out.
Bill.Cole goes home.
The housekeeper arrives to cart Deena off to bed.
Deena quietly enters.
Deena arrives.

-- End log: Sunday, April 21, 2002 4:21:02 pm CDT

---

Follow up email on webartery:

Message: 13
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 18:07:47 -0400
From: "c. allan dinsmore" <sc@studiocleo.com>
Subject: Re: E-Lit /ELO
Dear Webartarians -
On Sunday there was a chat in LinguaMOO that was supposed to be about the ELO Gallery, most of the chat did not focus on the individual works however. Nonetheless, it evolved into a pretty interesting chat, and someone suggested making it a list topic on trAce WebBoard. I thought the subject might spur some interest here also, so I've pasted the discussion invitation below:
I am opening the floor to opinions here. We all have them, so please be indulgent regarding such. We want engagement, be it friendly discussion/response, or heated argument.
For instance: There were two words which I noted the prolific use of, almost as touchstones, at the ELO Symposium: one was 'obsolescence,' the other was 'sophistication.' [And yes I'm sure there were many more, be that as it may ...] Personally, I feel that the first refers to a subject that has been brought up time and again regarding e-lit/new media, and I'm a bit tired of it [however applicable a subject it may be]. The second I am inclined towards as it can be a rather loaded word [as it has proved to be to art historians], and that loaded-ness intrigues me. Do you believe it applicable to the web-specific work being created presently, or, in the guise of a good PC advocate, do you shun the word as 'elitist' and judgmental? How do you want to see our vocabulary evolving? Is definition even important to you? Etcetera
... Talan & Mez have pursued the latter thread in rather specific terms [regarding a given work] I know, but I think the subject, indeed, merits further discussion.
Cleo/Claire
--
"You must deny the ineffable, for somehow it will speak."
- Stephane Mallarme
The Dazzle as Question: http://rhizome.org/object.rhiz?2572
http://www.studiocleo.com
Editor, Cauldron & Net: an on-line journal of the arts & new media
http://www.studiocleo.com/cauldron/

---

Message: 14
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 21:22:10 -0500
From: trbell@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Re: E-Lit /ELO
Claire,
My problem with 'sophistication' is that when it comes to the web is that it invariably seem to evolve (or devolve) into tricky effects and expensive equipment.
tom

---

Message: 15
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 18:42:51 -0400
From: "c. allan dinsmore" <sc@studiocleo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: E-Lit /ELO
my take on the use of the term is that it was not necessarily referring to form, but rather to content. i.e., we/e-lit are/is growing up; we are learning the media/um, how to truly manipulate [for lack of a better work] it to suit our communicative/expressive purposes. we are getting beyond just playing. yes of course, many folks have been for quite a while, but that it's now evolving in force ... quality becoming more synonymous with quantity ...

---

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 03:30:10 -0400
From: "c. allan dinsmore" <sc@studiocleo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: E-Lit /ELO
Well, I think that it did [refer to the tech. that is]. Played with as a subject do you mean? That's where my 'tired' comes in - we've all explored the issue/theme [I have myself in a few pieces] because, of course, it's an interesting one. Esp. regarding the fact that the artist [since the advent of the 'cult of the individual' / phenomena of the autograph anyway] has long been in the business, shall we say, of leaving a mark; and, hopefully, an incisive one at that. The fact that we are choosing to work within a media/um within which that point must, essentially, be glossed over by the practitioner for the simple reason that if s/he choose to think about it too much, s/he would simply give up as there was no guarantee their work would survive. But it's been done. There are many sonorous moans out there bewailing their exhaustion with the technological self-reflexiveness that this genre/media/um, seemingly ad infinitum, evinces .... As a subject for practitioners, archivers, librarians, museums, etc. to consider it is, of course, not a moot point by any means. I believe, though, that the genre [whatever it may embody creatively...] has proved to be more than a fad, and that practical efforts are being made to address this issue & resolve it. If it comes down to it, we can always have public spaces like libraries, with various platforms available for viewing various works. Technological time-capsules, as it were. Hey, humankind had enough intelligence to invent the computer, I think we will find that we've also enough intelligence to deal with the production[s] of that media/um in the future; as something more than mere technological[ly dated] debris that is. We learned to create out of our post-industrial debris did we not? Beauty in 'Merz'!

Talan Memmott wrote:
> obsolescence... The use of term, in my mind, should refer to the technology rather than the content of the work... That being said, elit happens within > this sphere, or is embodied through it... Awhile back Margie asked me for some thought on obsolescence for ' ' ... I > used the term 'obsoletics'... Because I think it something to be played with > rather than used as judgment of work... On the other hand, it makes > archiving a difficult enterprise... I do agree that is over-used...
But, > under-addressed as something of real critical concern or value *for* the > work... > Still, it is nearly impossible to predict just what technology will be the > next to fall of the edge, so playing with obsolescence in a work, as part of > its formation, part of its content is a risky venture... A work that would > be considered to deal with 'obsoletics' would not become obsolete based on > the technology dying or falling out of favor...

A loaded term indeed! I do like it though, in terms of what I mentioned earlier in my reply to Tom - that this genre is something to reckon with, shall we say. Sophistication also implies, I think, that the media/um has superseded the [seeming...] limits its original intention[s] implied. That is, what was this machine created for? It was definitely not intended as an artistic tool, it was intended for mathematic/scientific, "practical" applications [not many will join forces in praising art as a 'practical' endeavor [I tend to disagree, but that's an/other...]] - the programming often indicative of set parameters of use/age. Parameters which the artist-in-the-programmer self/programmer-in-the-artist self, from the earliest fumblings of Babbit and co., sought to expand/explode. [O the possibilities of this tool!] It signals that the creative impulses of left and right brain have merged within this media/um, and that said meeting has, indeed, been a valid one. [what a frigging idealist huh?> Sophistication... Claire, in your message you open various barrels of > monkeys and cans of worms... There seems a level of sophistication implicit > in creating technology-based work.... Sometimes, however, this notion is > more ruse than fact. As code, the web and all are increasingly demystified, > what may have once been considered a sophisticated work -- in regards to > vision, content, and issues addressed -- becomes, or is regarded as more > common... Sophistication -- I completely agree -- is a loaded term.

But what art [form] isn't in our pluralistic day and age? [Lord, when it comes down to it, what is language really except a "...convenience for what are basically very relativistic and individual practices?" That is, [forms of] life/being.] A projection indeed - unfortunately, though, those who make are not usually those who define. And here we come, once again, to the matter of [the] gaze... who's? We are still in a rather inceptive period, and I think [hope!] a duel/dual engagement will be more than called for, but practiced. I hope that we shall go somewhere - I don't know - beyond/outside of hackneyed critical jargonism for jargonism's sake, beyond mere rhetoric.
The academy's seduction permeated ELO indeed, but don't we, really, wish for this to be something else? Something outside of the [traditional] old-boy penchant for canonization simply dressed in spiffy new clothes? Who chooses? Who writes the HISstory, and writes so many valid voices out of it? The appropriation often implicit in their [the academy's] claim[s] can often wrest art from the hands of the artist[s], and define the parameters of a would-be audience. That is, by defining the e-lit/new media whathaveyou world as it has defined the 'artworld,' e.g., obfuscating much of the work of modernism by labeling it 'untouchable' and 'elitist' high art. A hermeneutics of web art, with the creators as interpreters ... [... didn't Rimbaud once say that poets were seers? ...] C

Talan Memmott wrote:
>I think more and more that terms such as the above serve as conveniences for > what is basically a very relativistic and individual practice -- both creatively and critically... When I say something like 'the definitions arefiction', this is not a statement against defining, determining, and communicating these definitions and determinations, so much as a statement that one will here conflicting definitions, determinations sometimes within a single critique. In this regard -- authority seems more a projection than an endeavor of the ) author (... And, I think, this opens the creative and critical to a sort of dual/duel form of play...

---

Message: 10
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 12:50:10 -0400
From: "Millie Niss" <men2@columbia.edu>
Subject: RE: Re: E-Lit /ELO
Is sophistication what we want? To me the term connotes a sort of perfection or glossy interface with maybe not that much behind it. I am thinking perhaps of some of what is found at turbulence.org -- works with beautiful flash interfaces, music that matches just right, but the interaction consists of dragging three objects from one side of the screen to another or choosing a button to press. Obviously there is a back-story to go with this, but it is aesthetically presented rather than deep. Pieces like this scare me because a) turbulence actually pays people so that represents the most successful web art b) it is sophisticated at the expense of being vapid.
At the same time (and I don't understand this) extremely simple animations of letters and words (like taking a letter from the front of a word and putting it in back) are in prestigious sites, the same sites that have really inspiring work on them...

In a parallel vein, someone said "Now we are working with the medium and no longer just playing" This is also alarming. I think that surprising art, and to be interesting art must have some surprises in it, is made by playing around. After playing around, one must of course have the technical skills to flesh out the piece, but the idea and and first working but unsophisticated version is more important than the glossified final version. It is always useful to be able to imagine web art that we don't have the skills to actually bring off. Sometimes we learn them, and other times we share the idea and someone makes the thing. Or the idea somehow magically joins the stock of possible web art to be made.
There are some people whose work has always been work and sophisticated without losing artsyness, like Talan. I have been reading a bunch of his stuff lately. I liked the Birth of V.ness (though I would have liked to see the paintings themselves at some point, perhaps as a reward for having explored every node, which I think I may have, unless of course there already is such a reward and I didn't get to it... I also started to look at the piece Talan has on Cauldron & Net 3 (which I had never heard of) and liked the interface a lot (had to go to sleep before I really understood much about it). My point in bringing Talan up, though, is to say that his work IS sophisticated, and has a pretty glossy interface with none of the ugly glitches I (and others) are sometimes guilty of).

Also, I am sure he could add a certain connection, like a simple mouseover effect on some screen by playing around, but the pieces mostly seem to be the result of working rather than playing in the sense that what you do in one place affects what happens elsewhere and that requires planning and there is also a need to develop the theme and symbols used to express it before it can be coded... I feel weird writing this because Talan is right here...perhaps he will correct me...he may not feel it's right to comment on his own way of building works but I'd like his take on whether he feels he is working or playing...

Personally, I am scared by the idea of web art becoming professionalized. One of the things that was really nice in this medium is that people with no training (sick as myself) could "play web art" with the best, because we were all learning the technology together and figuring out what it could do. Also there has been an ethic of helping beginners and encouraging them. I think I may have just escaped being cut off by this trend, but I'd like to think others could learn the way I did. In terms of sophistication (which for some reason I interpret as sites that "look perfect." It was a while ago) I think my best site is pure HTML with about zero code except some rollovers and simple javascripts, www.sporkworld.org/suicide The site would look graphically ten times better without the ridiculous instructions but when I tested it on people they didn't know what to do. This is a very simple, mostly text site, and the images aren't even mine (I was a newbie and used altavista image search....) I still like that site, but I have learned a lot of technical skills since doing that site, and I'm more likely to make mistakes using Flash scripting, extensive javascript, server side/database code etc. than I was using static html, and so would everyone else. Also some sites depend on stacks of technology working together (not quite 3-tier applications, but...) and so if they fail at any point you have a problem. Sophisticated in the technical, rather than the glossy, sense sites tend not to LOOK sophisticated-- a game with a high score list which remembers who is playing via a cookie and uses an sql database to remember the other scores does not look especially sophisticated, since most people don't understand why this is so much harder to do over the net than on a single user's home machine. But a game with a high score list that malfunctions sometimes will look terrible and if it is slow or displays error messages such as "Could not connect to server" people will not want to play it. On the other hand people are impressed by animation that the user can control even though that is a very simple effect usually just jumping to different frames in the animation (like if you move a character left or right with your mouse and he walks).

So I do not like this sophistication stuff, but maybe it is because I am not good enough to make sophisticated web art. (Unless the tiniest little animations that do nothing exciting may also be sophisticated, viz www.sporkworld.org/epoetry/bike.html or www.sporkworld.org/epoetry/sperm.html. I just noticed that the first one isn't--it has an animation glitch which I never noticed having never watched it go for long...) Millie www.sporkworld.org

---

-----Original Message-----
From: Talan Memmott [mailto:talan@memmott.org]
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 7:34 PM
To: webartery@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [webartery] Re: E-Lit /ELO
obsolescence... The use of term, in my mind, should refer to the technology rather than the content of the work... That being said, elit happens within this sphere, or is embodied through it... Awhile back Margie asked me for some thought on obsolescence for ' ' ... I used the term 'obsoletics'... Because I think it something to be played with rather than used as judgment of work... On the other hand, it makes archiving a difficult enterprise... I do agree that is over-used... But, under-addressed as something of real critical concern or value *for* the work... Still, it is nearly impossible to predict just what technology will be the next to fall of the edge, so playing with obsolescence in a work, as part of its formation, part of its content is a risky venture... A work that would be considered to deal with 'obsoletics' would not become obsolete based on the technology dying or falling out of favor...
Sophistication... Claire, in your message you open various barrels of monkeys and cans of worms... There seems a level of sophistication implicit in creating technology-based work.... Sometimes, however, this notion is more ruse than fact. As code, the web and all are increasingly demystified, what may have once been considered a sophisticated work -- in regards to vision, content, and issues addressed -- becomes, or is regarded as more common... Sophistication -- I completely agree -- is a loaded term. I think more and more that terms such as the above serve as conveniences for what is basically a very relativistic and individual practice -- both creatively and critically... When I say something like 'the definitions are fiction', this is not a statement against defining, determining, and communicating these definitions and determinations, so much as a statement that one will here conflicting definitions, determinations sometimes within a single critique. In this regard -- authority seems more a projection than an endeavor of the ) author (... And, I think, this opens the creative and critical to a sort of dual/duel form of play...-

---

Message: 11
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 15:56:14 -0500
From: trbell@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Re: E-Lit /ELO
beats sophistry!
or is it?

---

Message: 14
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 19:11:56 -0400
From: "c. allan dinsmore" <sc@studiocleo.com>
To: <webartery@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 7:08 PM
Subject: Re: [webartery] Re: E-Lit /ELO>
I can't write too [!] much now, but I think that both Tom's and Millie's posts point to the fact that if we do find that this word continues to be used in our critical vocabulary, it must be applied rather circumspectly [I suppose that goes without saying tho -]. However I did pose the question of the word out of context, and, as we all know, words can be exceedingly multivalent ... Nonetheless, both Tom and Millie read it the same way - as applicable to the surface schema of our work that is. Sophisticated implies more than [a] surface to me, I believe it to be more thorough than that, deeper. Just because something is slick looking on the surface, doesn't mean that it's sophisticated. Or that it isn't either, if [aesthetic] 'pleasure' is the thrust of intention. Something having a beautiful surface ['surface' > is an ugly/inapplicable word really regarding the type of work I'm thinking of] does not necessarily qualify it for the usage of naught but derisive epithets. The word [sophistication] implies a level of maturity.
Richness. Saturation. [I keep finding a tendency to want to qualify everything I say with 'I think/believe' because I want it to be clear this is only my opinion. I will proceed to take it for granted that whoever reads this, knows that I am aware of this]. Digression aside: Interesting because the definition in Websters has two seemingly contradictory elements residing within one definition, that is, a seeming negative and a positive: "to deprive of genuineness, naturalness, or simplicity; especially : to deprive of naïveté and make worldly-wise : DISILLUSION." [Now where does this equation of essential 'evil' and 'wordliness' come in/from? Christianity I suppose...]. Another definition [#3] eradicates what some seem to believe that surface slickness, [perforce?], implies: "to make complicated or complex."

That is if a work, that at Turbulence for instance, only functions on one level, it is neither complex or complicated, therefore, according to this definition, it is not sophisticated work. A matter of facets/parts/levels/elements whathaveyou - I believe that a whole/[hol]listic approach was indicated in the use of this word at ELO. [I just can't seem to get down that 'law of non-contradiction' stuff ...
______________________

Now, I'm just having fun here/am curious -i.e., this hasn't much to do with the subject at hand [web art def. as such], but does so in a round-about way re: language/definition/meaning. this regarding a word [or 2 --] somewhat akin to 'sophistication,' on one level anyway [...] : what does the word 'urbane' signify to people? or 'aesthete?' Supply more pls. if they occur to you. [if it's so difficult, rather consistently, to agree on the meaning of a single word, why do we bother trying to communicate via language at all? for more than practical purposes that is.

C

Millie Niss wrote:
> Is sophistication what we want? To me the term connotes a sort of
perfection or glossy interface with maybe not that much behind it.
I am thinking perhaps of some of what is found at turbulence.org --
works with beautiful flash interffaces, music that matches just right, but
the interaction consists of dragging three objects from one side of the
screen to another or choosing a button to press. Obviously there is a
back-story to go with this, but it is aesthetically presented rather than
deep. Pieces like this scare me because a) turbulence actually pays
people so that represents the most successful web art b) it is sophisticated at
the expense of being vapid.

---

Message: 15
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 19:19:52 -0400
From: "c. allan dinsmore" <sc@studiocleo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: E-Lit /ELO
actually, etymologically speaking, that is where it comes from [one of
the roots anyway]

> beats sophistry! or is it?

Is sophistication what we want?

---

Message: 16
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 00:00:38 -0500
From: trbell@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Re: E-Lit /ELO

philosophically, so to speak?
tom

c. allan dinsmore wrote:
>actually, etymologically speaking, that is where it comes from [one
of the roots anyway]

Tom Bell wrote:
>> beats sophistry!or is it?

Is sophistication what we want?

---

Message: 17
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 21:41:07 -0400
From: "c. allan dinsmore" <sc@studiocleo.com>
Subject: Fw: Re: E-Lit /ELO

lord, i don't think so! but some others on the list might think
otherwise ...
i suppose that needn't necessarily have a negative implication tho - in
terms of pastiche, satire, etc. intent! philosophically, so to speak?

---

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 00:29:11 -0700
From: Jim Andrews <jim@vispo.com>
Subject: RE: Re: E-Lit /ELO
'philosophically' speaking, we might say that the proof is in the
pudding, Tom, whether it can
be found or not.

ja

---

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 10:43:17 -0500
From: Scott Rettberg <rettberg@eliterature.org>
Subject: Sophist Kate,

I hope that there's a difference between slick and sophisticated, but what about cosmopolitan and metropolitan and Neapolitan web art? I want to make electronic writing that is like ice cream with three flavors.

I think that Rob W's comment meant that he was in a way raising the bar of his own standards, that he was starting to apply some of the same standards to web work as he does to print work.

We all do this thing to varying degrees, work with our different measuring sticks. I guess I'm still not there yet. I'm still sort of in the bull in a chinashop mode, crashing into things.

I'm still sort of in the mad scientist mode, mixing concoctions. I'll mill tort of in the graffiti making stage. The sand lot kind of thing. The magic show type of thing. I love it when you show me tricks.
Sure, sometimes a great notion results in a beautiful interface that leaves me momentarily stunned, jaw agape, and then my momentary attention span yanks away the veil and makes me scream out "TELL ME A FUCKING STORY."

But I feel better about writing my writing when I'm crashing about. The responsibility of sophistication: in an odd way I'm more willing to apply it to my taste than to my own actions: so though I know that there should be a designer on this next thing, somebody like professional and I
know that twill look hacked together if I do it myself well it might be
kind
of fun jury-rigging this here, slapping this together.

So I don't know, I'm still like a kid trying drugs for the first time, I guess. Something that makes me see things that aren't there, and laugh loudly at jokes that are not funny in any other context. Happily unsophisticated, happily naïve. I'm not doing no canon dance, if that's where we're headed. M. Bernstein wrote in his blog that writers shouldn't worry about obsolescence, because the Eastgate canon isn't going away. That made me laugh and nearly cry at the same time. Forty years from now on my deathbed and all I've got left for my grandkids are some press clippings and a couple copies of afternoon, a story. And Dr. Bernstein our Dr. Johnson. Save me, Joe Louis.

I want the graffiti to last. I want the kids to understand our hands were thick with the mud of creation. I want to save the mistakes from the shredder. Pull Emily's box from beneath the bed and hold it close to my chest. </riff>

---

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 12:15:53 -0400
From: "Diane Greco" <dianegreco@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: <no subject>
> M. Bernstein
> wrote in his blog that writers shouldn't worry about obsolescence, because
> the Eastgate canon isn't going away. That made me laugh and nearly cry at
> the same time. Forty years from now on my deathbed and all I've got left for
> my grandkids are some press clippings and a couple copies of afternoon, a
> story. And Dr. Bernstein our Dr. Johnson.

I read Mark's blog pretty regularly. I don't recall him saying "the
Eastgate canon isn't going away."
http://www.markbernstein.org
In fact, I've *never* heard him say "the Eastgate canon." The idea seems kind of peculiar. Where's the reference?
d

---

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 12:51:50 -0400
From: "Diane Greco" <dianegreco@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: <no subject>
Hi, it's me again. Bernstein's original post, 10 April 2002, is here:
http://www.markbernstein.org/Apr0201.html
The post is complex, and strikes me as deeply felt. I'm doing it a bit of a disservice by cutting and pasting, but the relevant portion is this:

"First, people worry that electronic art they create (or teach, or enjoy)
will be lost as systems change. This fear is, I think, exaggerated and
misplaced. If readers and scholars care about a work, it will survive
because it will be ported, translated, and preserved. Afternoon, a
story is already the oldest consumer software on the market; keeping it (and the
rest of the Storyspace canon) fresh and current has demonstrably not exceeded the
(very modest) resources that Eastgate commands."

Please note, he did not say "Eastgate canon," which would have immodestly imputed a great deal of authority to the hypertexts Eastgate publishes and more authority, I think, than Eastgate really has. (When, in a recent issue of _Publisher's Weekly_ , a reviewer took Shelley Jackson and Adrienne Eisen to task for writing hypertext, neither publisher nor canon was mentioned, and hypertexts equaled e-books as far as the reviewer was concerned.

What I'm saying is, eliterature is a tiny, tiny blip on a radar screen that is a whole lot bigger than perhaps any of us understands.) Anyway, sorry to digress. By "Storyspace canon," I think Bernstein's talking about works written in Storyspace and published by Eastgate. Eastgate has an obvious interest in keeping those current as Eastgate has taken a capital risk in publishing them, and might reasonably be expected to take steps to protect that risk as software environments and operating systems change.

(Incidentally, not every work published by Eastgate is written in Storyspace -- look at Margie's _Califia_, Rob Swigart's _Down Time_., etc.) To be sure, it isn't the same canon as Modern English Literature or works of, egad, "inmates of the Eastgate school," a nice bit of vilification I've encountered recently. "Canon" is perhaps an unfortunate word, but I doubt that, in using it, Bernstein intended to set himself up as "our Dr. Johnson," a jab that seems particularly nasty and unfair.

best, d

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