Chat Transcript: October 22nd 2000
Archiving Electronic Literature

Sunday October 22nd (in LinguaMOO)
This transcript produced by Deena Larsen

Straight to log missing introduction

Public places for books Part 2: How can we archive? Libraries have played a major role in preserving our literature and culture. What roles will they--or should they-- play in the electronic realm?

• How can libraries preserve works that depend on changing technologies, unstable media, and rapidly obsolete machines?
  
• How will we archive electronic media?
  
• How can we preserve the technology to ensure that people can access this 5 years from now? Four centuries from now?

The following is a list of related links to accompany your reading:

• Hypertext 01 conference
• List of workshops
  
• CyberFlats
  
• Dream Merging: http://www.unblinkingeye.com/
  Poetry/Aileron/Poetry2/Larsen/Lar1/lar1.html (Editor's note: no longer at this URL.)
• Flash
• Eastgate's Flash Workshop
  
• Disney
  
• W3C Standards
  
• comfylux
  
• Eastgate Reading Room (Editor's note: Help is Dane's new work in the reading room.)
  
• ELO's Directory
  
• New Improved Media reviews
• Impermanence Agent
• Disappearing Rain
  

-- Start log: Sunday, October 22, 2000 2:31:12 p.m. CDT

Claude quietly enters.

Deena says, "Hi Claude"

Deena says, "It is a bit quiet today... and people have yet to arrive en masse."

Claude says, "Hi"

Claude says, "I guess so. I don't come here very often."

Deena says, "Are you here for the elit chat?"

Claude says, "No."

Claude says, "What's that?"

Deena says, "Ahh.. We have a chat on the first and third Sundays of the month."

Claude says, "Ok..."

Deena says, "Type 'look'."

Deena says, "And you will see a URL for Electronic Literature."

Deena says, "Today, we are supposed to talk about libraries and archives."

Deena says, "But no one has shown up yet..."

Claude says, "I see... I guess. Is this for some lecture?"

Deena says, "What are your interests on the MOO."

Claude says, "Or seminar?"

Deena says, "Not really a lecture. I get a guest speaker and we sit around and talk about a particular subject."

Claude says, "I'm working with a Swedish moo called poemoo."

Deena says, "So more like a biweekly chat meeting."

Deena says, "Poemoo...do they do a lot of literature work then?"

Claude says, "I see. Are there people from all around the world or is it a local thing?"

Deena says, "Yes, this is a worldwide chat mostly."

Mediazz arrives.

Claude says, "Poemoo is built on Swedish poems... something we try to get out in high schools."

Deena says, "Hi Mediazz. Are you here for the elit chat?"

Deena says, "We are just getting started."

Mediazz says, "Hi Deena. Yes I am, "

Deena says, "Great. Claude just dropped in on the sly :)"

Claude says, "I think I will leave you now. Good luck with your discussion."

Mediazz says, "You can call me John or Mediazz if you like."

Deena says, "Things are a bit slow today..."

Claude says, "It's getting kind of late here in Stockholm. Time for sleep :)"

Deena says, "Hi John, what are your interests in eliterature and libraries?"

Mediazz says, "Well, I am very interested in hypertext."

Deena says, "And please send me the URL for PoemOO."

Claude says, "http://www.poemoo.nu" (editor's note: Could not find this URL.)

Deena says, "John, what do you do with hypertext--write, read, etc?"

Mediazz says, "Yes I write, and review... "

Mediazz says, "And generally procrastinate."

Deena says, "Ahh. What have you written? I'm Deena Larsen, btw, I host the chat and I write and read and love hypertext."

Deena says, "Yep. But if you write hypertext, it is hard to procrastinate and get stuff done..."

Deena hands out antiprocrastinators and antipesto.

Dane arrives.

Deena says, "Have you any works that are now unreachable due to technology?"

Mediazz says, "I was reading about the hypertext conference in Denmark."

Deena says, "Hi Dane, glad you could join us."

Deena says, "Yes, we'll be doing CyberFlats as well."

Mediazz says, "Can you tell me more about that?"

Mediazz says, "CyberFlats?"

Deena shares a URL for a list of workshops: <http://www.wordcircuits.com/htww>.

Mediazz says, "Does HTML count as code? "

Deena says, "Right, you can click on the CyberFlats link there to see it."

Deena says, "Sure, we are looking at ways you can twist html to do what you need it to do."

Mediazz says, "CSS helps a lot."

Deena says, "Yes, and there is a lot you can do with javascript."

Deena says, "Hopefully, the web will help us archive materials, and keep a sense of what is out there."

Mediazz says, "Yes I am learning PERL right now, js will be next."

Deena says, "Mediazz, Dane, what do you think will happen to works 10 years from now? or 20? Will we be able to read what we are writing now?"

Mediazz says, "Can I submit a URL? I am working on this page."

Deena says, "Sure, just type @URL http://whatever"

Dane says, "I'm not so into type."

Dane says, "I think we will go back to oral."

Deena says, "Dane, what do you mean by going back to oral?"

Mediazz says, "I think it is possible to write code forward compliant."

Dane says, "Audio, rather than type."

Mediazz shares a URL...for New Improved Media <http://www.newimprovedmedia.com/review>.

Deena says, "Do you think we can do audio in hypertext?"

Mediazz says, "Definitely."

Dane says, "If hypertext is another name for database art, then yes."

Dane says, "How do you access the URLs whilst in MOO?"

Dane says, "OK, just worked it out."

Mediazz says, "Are you using encore?"

Mediazz says, "enCore express"

Dane says, "So, Mediazz, that's your site?"

Deena has connected.

Deena says, "I was just showing my work to a conference today and we were discussing this archiving issue. Someone said, just use emulators for old software, but this doesn't work well. Have either of you guys tried to take old work into new media?"

Deena says, "Dane, John, how long have you been working in hypertexts?"

Dane says, "Old software?"

Mediazz says, "I just found a wonderful hypertext, Deena."

Deena yeah, like HyperCard, Storyspace, etc.

Deena says, "Please share it, John."

Dane says, "Me, about 2 months but just in Flash."

Deena says, "I will look at the page you put up later--I think it knocked me out."

Mediazz says, "It is called Dream Merging."

Deena blushes. Oh, that's mine. Thanks.

Deena says, "Dane, what do you like about Flash? Are you going to Eastgate's Flash workshop in two weeks?"

Mediazz says, "Would you like me to post the URL?"

Deena says, "Sure, go ahead and post."

Deena says, "Dane, that is great that you are going!"

Mediazz shares a URL:
http://www.unblinkingeye.com/
Poetry/Aileron/Poetry2/Larsen/Lar1/lar1.html
(Editor's note: no longer at this URL.)

Deena says, "Dream Merging works with javascript--you scroll across the image and get different words."

Mediazz says, "I have never used the HyperCard or StorySpace, only from old notebooks to html."

Deena says, "You guys may have to open it in a different window--unless yours scrolls across."

Mediazz says, "It is a very clever use of jscript."

Deena says, "John, that is just as well... We are now finding it hard to translate "dead works" into media that everyone can see."

Deena says, "Dane, how long do you think Flash will last?"

Everdeen quietly enters.

Dane says, "Well Disney have taken it into film animation so..."

Everdeen waves.

Deena says, "Hi Everdeen, the erstwhile discussion topic is archiving and how we will preserve lit, but we are going on all sorts of tangents."

Mediazz says, "It is very popular."

Deena says, "I hadn't realized Disney was using Flash."

Deena says, "Flash is getting much better now that we can program in it."

Deena vows to learn and make use of Flash.

Dane says, "I read something about some cross over but as soon as they get the quick time more solid."

Deena says, "Yet how long will works made in Flash work?"

MazThing quietly enters.

Deena says, "Dane, cross overs from what?"

Deena says, "Hi MazThing, glad you could pop in"

Mediazz says, "It is a $300 entry fee, right? with Flash?"

MazThing smiles around

Deena says, "We are talking about Flash, archiving, and whatever comes to mind."

Deena says, "John, what is a $300 entry fee? The Eastgate Flash conference?"

Deena says, "Now that we have a quorum :), we could introduce ourselves."

Mediazz says, "It cost $300 to buy the software?"

Deena says, "I am Deena Larsen, and I host these chats for the Electronic Literature Organization every first and third Sunday of each month. Check for schedules at:
http://www.eliterature.org/com/index.shtml"

Dane says, "It's just so quick."

Mediazz says, "I would like to know more about the Eastgate workshop?"

Deena says, "This workshop will be more on how to use Flash in hypertext and lit rather than on using Flash the program. Here is the workshop home page: <http://www.eNarrative.org/>.

Dane says, "Are you going, Deena?"

Deena says, "I would love to go, but I have a business meeting in Seattle that week :("

Deena says, "MazThing, John, have you used Flash?"

Mediazz says, " I see I know nothing about how to create w/ Flash."

MazThing says, "No, Deena."

Deena says, "I would like to learn, I think you can do a lot with animated text."

Dane says, "May I share a piece I have just finished?"

Mediazz says, "Yes it is very, well Flashy."

Deena says, "The technology changes quickly, and eliterature struggles to keep up and take advantage of the new techniques."

Deena says, "How successful are we in using Flash, and other technology to create good literature?"

Mediazz says, "I think in the future there will be many DHTML techniques that can emulate Flash."

Deena says, "How do you use these techniques? Do you use them just to see what the tools can do or do you use them to make a point in your work?"

Mediazz says, "You can use them carelessly for sure."

Deena says, "John, you talked about forward compatibility earlier too, how do you think we will be able to program to make sure works are readable in new DHTML software?"

Mediazz says, "Right now it is hard, many browsers are incompatible."

Deena says, "Yep, you can use the techniques just as techniques, and I think you have to at first to see what *can* ( be done. But at some point you have to figure out what you want to convey."

Deena says, "Yes, how do we get access to a work NOW when browsers are so incompatible? And how will we maintain access in the future?"

Deena passes around browser compatible pets--nice furry animals that make sure everything is readable on every platform.

Dane says, "How do you put a link?"

Deena says, "Dane, share a URL here? To do that type @URL http://whatever"

Mediazz says, "Paying attention to W3C standards is important."

Deena says, "Right, as long as we are on the web. How long do you think the web will be a viable medium?"

Deena says, "And what happens AFTER the web? In say, a century or two?"

Dane shares a URL: <http://www.comfylux.net>.

Dane says, "The yellow link is a Flash narrative"

Deena has to admit that the browser she is on can't see it, but will look at it after the chat.

Mediazz says, "Yes it is very impressive."

Deena says, "What other Flash programs demonstrate a good use of the technology?"

Deena says, "What are good uses for Flash and animation, and how do they impact the meaning of the work?"

Mediazz says, "I think you are right that aural interfaces will be more prevalent in the future."

Dane says, "Don't you think that there is too much style over content?"

Deena says, "Yes, how do we determine if there is too much style over content?"

Deena says, "John, how could you use aural interfaces in a work? "

Mediazz says, "I have seen this before, is it a work in progress?"

Dane says, "Help is on Eastgate Reading Room." (Editor's note: Help is Dane's new work.)

Deena says, "Dane, could you share that URL?"

Mediazz says, "That's where I have seen it."

Dane says, "The yellow bar should be a new one."

Deena says, "Dane did you create Help?"

Dane says, "Yep."

Mediazz says, "I am in the laundry now, I will look at it more later, I would like to review it for my site. "

Deena says, "How did you plan the work? Did you start out with a concept, play with Flash,..."

Deena says, "John, please tell us about your site."

Dane says, "Can you put your link up again."

Mediazz says, "Yes I would like to here more about this flash hypertext, I will post the link again."

Mediazz shares a URL for new improved media: <http://www.newimprovedmedia.com>.

Dane says, "What's newimprovedmedia?"

Deena says, "This looks like a great place to review media!"

Mediazz says, "I have to reviews to post, one on Carolyn Guertin."

MazThing has disconnected.

Deena says, "Thanks for coming Mz"

Deena says, "Yes, John, how do you define the new media, and what possibilities do you see coming up?"

Deena says, "Sorry about that. I am having lots of fun with my connection."

Dane says, "lol."

Mediazz shakes finger at Deena's ISP

Deena passes out broken wires and fused connections to all.

Deena says, "Well, we are in the middle of a nasty thunderstorm out here, so..."

Deena shakes her head at the way real life intrudes.

Deena says, "John, have you gotten many reviewers for your site?"

Mediazz says, "I am excited about the future of new media lit."

Dane says, "How?"

Mediazz says, "Not many."

Deena passes out excitement and dizzying sunrays of possibilities.

Deena says, "Dane, I'm sorry, how what?"

Mediazz says, "Just me and my alter egos, I would like to post Floyd Wildes hypertext - he is a pseudo-nim."

Deena says, "The ELO's Directory has a directory of electronic literature, but we are also looking for reviewers."

Mediazz says, "I would be glad to help out!"

Deena says, "It is still a tiny little field, and the pace of technology is dwarfing it. We need time to grow and develop."

Deena says, "John, that would be great. We should get a way to link to your site for reviews. I'll email you and Scott and maybe we can work together on this."

Deena says, "The trouble is, now that we have so many hypertexts, we need to find a way to show which are worth reading.."

Mediazz shares a URL:
<http://www.newimprovedmedia.com/floyd>.

Dane says, "The age of the critic."

Deena says, "Yes, the age of the filter. There is just so much stuff out there, how do you determine what is good to read and what is not?"

Mediazz says, "This URL is a hypertext that works best in IE 5 I haven't cross browserfied it yet."

Deena says, "I am able to scroll across this one."

Dane says, "I have a cranky Netscape."

Deena says, "I have a very cranky Netscape too."

Deena says, "And an old Mac, my hard drive is retiring to Palm Beach pretty quickly."

Dane says, "I love the emoting, how does one do it?"

Deena says, "Ahh, just type: and your action"

Mediazz says, "I am not sure if the CSS styles work in NS I use the HOVER class on the next page."

Dane says, "Cool."

Deena skips about handing out motions, emotions, emoticons, and actions

Dane says, "Could you have a chat just of emoting?"

Deena says, "John, how do you get to the next page?"

Mediazz says, "Click on the power went out."

Dane says, "All I have is 'the power went out.'"

Everdeen says, "Have to go. Have a good week, everybody!"

Deena says, "Well, we didn't really cover archiving, but it has been fun to get to see you."

Deena says, "We will have the OWEL Workshop next week"

Everdeen says, "Deena, there's always another week!"

Dane nods in agreement.

Deena says, "Yes, you can keep checking on http://www.eliterature.org/com/index.shtml"

Mediazz says, "Well I would show you more but I am afraid of what it will look like in Netscape."

Deena says, "John, this looks like a fun work. We could go over it in the workshop."

Deena says, "Yes, and capturing gives you about half the screen. But at least you can see it."

Mediazz says, "Yes I hope I haven't sidetracked you."

Deena says, "No, this is a lazy rainy day, and my guest speaker never showed. Ahh well.."

Deena says, "These chats can be like that."

Deena jumps as the thunder booms and apologizes for saying lazy rainy.

Dane wonders where Deena is

Deena says, "But we have a couple of minutes--do you want to talk about archiving or shoot the breeze?"

Deena says, "I'm in Denver, Colorado. We usually get either thunderstorms or snow, and it is just a bit warm for snow."

Mediazz says, "I live near Chicago so will be getting it next."

Deena says, "Yeah, this does seem to be local, but I don't know."

Deena says, "Dane, Somerset, England? Then you won't get this storm!"

Deena says, "Ahh well. John, this page does look interesting. Are you going to do Flash with it?"

Dane says, "John, can you tell me where you're going with your website?"

Mediazz says, "Yes, not anytime soon w/ flash, cross browser DHTML more likely."

Dane 's page is still blank.

Deena says, "Yes, the new media project looks great. Will you be soliciting reviews, etc.?"

Mediazz shares a URL...for new improved media reviews. <http://www.newimprovedmedia.com/nsnim.htm>.

Deena says, "I like that last sentence with the browsers. Yes, I too feel stuck in 1997 sometimes."

Mediazz says, "I just want to offer support to E-lit."

Deena says, "John, your support is warmly welcomed and accepted."

Deena says, "It is great to have sites dedicated to the new media!"

Deena says, "I know they take up a lot of time!"

Mediazz says, "I actually run a carpentry business and have a part time job right now so not much time for it."

Deena says, "Me too. I work full time for the Federal government, so this is just a "hobby."

Dane works part time in a bookshop.

Deena wishes she worked in a bookshop.

Mediazz says, "Yes it is a labour of love, sometimes."

Deena says, "Very definitely. I love the possibilities in the language, the structure, the content you can get on the computer."

Deena says, "If I could say what I wanted to say in a linear way, I would definitely use paper. It lasts longer. But I can't."

Dane says, "The great thing about hypertext is that it opens up the content of modernism."

Deena says, "Dane, what do you mean by the content of modernism?"

Mediazz says, "I always think about what my fav writers from the past would think of the new media; like James Joyce."

Dane says, "Joyce, Burroughs could have developed their ideas to ..."

Deena, "I think Joyce would have done something a lot like Jim Rosenberg is doing. He would have had so much fun!"

Deena says, "Finnegan's Wake is the ultimate hypertext, as far as I'm concerned."

Mediazz says, "Rosenberg?"

Deena says, "Jim Rosenberg (most of his work is at Eastgate Systems) does word symphonies in poems."

Deena says, "He is using some Flash nowadays, but really worked well in HyperCard."

Dane says, "I found it so liberating after film."

Mediazz says, "I'll look him up."

Deena says, "Yes, when I post this archive, I'll have his URLs."

Deena looks through her pockets for Jim's URLs and makes promissory noises.

Mediazz says, "Have you worked w/ film, Dane?"

Deena says, "What do you find liberating?"

Dane says, "I trained in animation."

Dane says, "16mm."

Mediazz says, "I have background noise still playing from your project must still be here somewhere."

Deena says, "Training in animation is a great intro to Flash!"

Dane says, "The same principles, just Flash is easier."

Deena says, "Yes, I need to get some training in animation to use flash so that it adds to what I am saying and isn't the show itself..."

Mediazz says, "I found an old wittenauer camera for a dollar at a rummage sale wish I knew how to use it."

Deena says, "I'm worried about that, actually. I haven't quite grasped how to use it..."

Dane says, "Flash?"

Mediazz says, "It has 3 lenses and a projector built in."

Deena says, "Yes, I am not sure how to merge animation and words yet. The push-idea of getting the reader to experience words instead of exploring words seems problematic for me as a creator."

Dane says, "I'd be more than happy to help in any way."

Deena says, "Dane, maybe we could work on something together. That would be fun!"

Dane swivels on his chair in agreement.

Mediazz says, "I think experimentation is the best way to figure out what to do."

Deena says, "Yep. So much of the work right now is experimenting, getting our feet wet. We need to do that before we can swim in this new media."

Deena swivels around with all the possibilities until she gets a wee bit seasick.

Mediazz says, "Pretty soon will be doing the backstroke."

Dane says, "The idea has to come first, Flash is just an easy way of putting it across."

Mediazz that's one way to brainstorm:)

Dane says, "I always start with navigation boards, do you do the same in StorySpace?"

Deena says, "I usually start with StorySpace or my living room walls."

Mediazz says, "I draw in notebooks."

Deena says, "Then I put up the story and the connections and determine the structure."

Deena says, "John, that is a good way to start. "

Mediazz says "I grope around in the dark occasionally too."

Dane says, "John, what writing have you produced?"

Deena thinks sometimes it is all a game of blindman's bluff.

Deena says, "Dane, can we get the URLs for your Flash projects?"

Mediazz shares a URL: <http://www.newimprovedmedia.com/floyd/floyd.htm>.

Mediazz says, "I have never used Flash."

Dane says, "They're on comfylux.com"

Dane says, "What do you use, John?"

Deena says, "Join the club, John. I have been toying with Flash, but have not figured out its best use."

Mediazz says, "I use via text editor."

Mediazz says, "I use CSS styles a lot so Netscape beware."

Dane looks for a tech dictionary.

Deena looks through the page and see s that the CSS tags work on her Netscape.

Deena says, "CSS tags are customized styles that tell a bunch of text what to look like."

Dane looks lost in a world of acronyms

Mediazz says, "Cascading style sheets."

Dane says, "They're very big jpegs."

Mediazz says, "Yes sorry."

Mediazz says, "I am spoiled by high bandwidth."

Deena wishes she had bandwidth and echoes Dane's sights.

Mediazz says, "The problem in Netscape is the CSS styles don't always cascade, but there are ways to fix, I just need to take more time."

Dane says, "Compositionally the web is interesting as largely its a series of vignettes."

Dane says, "There are no edges to anything."

Deena says, "Yep. I like the way that everything leads off. I did that in Disappearing Rain--I link to a bunch of sites on the Internet to show there is no end to the story."

Dane says, "Deena, what's the link?"

Deena shares a URL: <http://www.chisp.net/~textra/rain>.

Deena says, "Dane, I'd like to go back to see your work as well..."

Mediazz is happy to have reading material

Barry quietly enters.

Deena says, "Ahh well. I may have to leave soon too."

Deena says, "Hi Barry, we are just shooting the breeze about hypertext."

Mediazz says, "Likewise, must go to work soon."

Deena says, "But John, Barry, feel free to read through Disappearing Rain. It's a pretty big novel site that links out to the net."

Mediazz says, "I will plan on reviewing some of your work Deena, please keep in touch."

Deena says, "Dane, could you re-share your URL?"

Deena says, "Yes, John, are you on the list for ELO chat announcements?"

Dane says, "Your link took over my browser, lol."

Deena says, "Please come next week Saturday same time for the OWEL workshop"

Dane says, "How do you do the link again?"

Deena says, "Type @URL http://wwhatever"

Mediazz says, "Okay I will be there, unless I am not."

Deena passes out conundrums for the drive home

Dane shares a URL: <http://www.comfylux.com>.

Mediazz says, "I must go now, but thanks you Dane and Deena, you are both great hypertextualists."

Deena says, "Well, I should get off line before I get electrocuted in the storm. Dane, thanks so much for the URL, we'll get together, I promise."

Deena says, "John, thanks for coming, and I will email you and Scott to get more support :)"

Dane says, "Bye, nice meeting you, etc"

Deena says, "Barry, hope we didn't confuse you too much. We chat on the first and third Sundays about different aspects of elit."

Deena says, "On Nov 5th, we'll talk with Noah about the Impermanence agent."

Deena says, "Well good night"

-- End log: Sunday, October 22, 2000 4:34:38 PM CDT

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