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Chat Transcript:
November 4th 2001: Alt-X ebooks
Sunday
November 4th (in trAce WebBoard)
This
transcript produced by trAce
Straight
to log missing introduction
Joint
ELO/trAce chat: the new Alt-X Press brings to web-readers a must-have
library of uncategorizable writing being produced by some of the
most provocative artists in contemporary new media culture.
As
digital writing makes its footprint into the electrosphere, we no
longer ask "What is literature?" but, more importantly, "What is
literature's exit strategy?"
These
full-length works of art are now available in ebook and Palm Pilot
formats and will soon be available as Print On-Demand (POD) titles.
The eight inaugural titles include previously unpublished work by
postmodern fiction masters George Chambers, Ron Sukenick and Raymond
Federman, screen-based auteur Nile Southern, new media stars Mark
Amerika, Alan Sondheim, Eugene Thacker and Adrienne Eisen, and a
collection of Neuromantic Fiction from the Black Ice archives. The
best part about it all? These ebooks are available to you for free.
In a time of economic downturn and dot.com uncertainty, Alt-X perseveres
and continues its mission to http://www.altx.com/ebooks
Guest
authors will be Alan Sodnheim, Nile Southern and Matt Samet
Alan
Sondheim's books include the anthology Being on Line: Net Subjectivity
(Lusitania, 1996), Disorders of the Real (Station Hill, 1988), and
.echo (alt-X digital arts, 2001) as well as numerous other chapbooks,
books and articles. His video and films have been shown internationally.Sondheim
co-moderates several email lists, including Cybermind, Cyberculture,
and Wryting. For the past several years, he has been working on
an "Internet Text," a continuous meditation on philosophy, psychology,
language, body, sexuality, and virtuality. Sondheim lives in Brooklyn
and Miami and teaches at Florida International University; he lectures
and publishes widely on contemporary art and Internet issues. In
1999, Sondheim was the second virtual writer-in-residence for the
trAce (sic) online writing community, originating in Nottingham,
England. He is currently Associate Editor of the online magazine
Beehive, and has assembled a special topic for the America Book
Review on Codework. His video/soundwork has been recently screened
at Millennium Film (NYC), as well as Western Ontario and York Universities
(Toronto). Sondheim teaches in the trAce online writing program.
He currently works on video with his partner Azure Carter, and soundwork
in live and recorded performance. Relevant URLS: Internet Text at
http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt
Partial at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html
Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm
CDROM of collected work 1994-2000/1 available: write sondheim@panix.com
Sondheim may be reached at sondheim@panix.com.
Nile
Southern is a writer, producer, filmmaker, and collage-artist, who
has been working with altx as a designer since its inception. He
created the video for Mark Amerika's Grammatron project--which premiered
at the Whitney Museum. As the Executor of his father's estate, Nile
recently edited a new anthology called "Now Dig This; The Unspeakable
Writings of Terry Southern; 1950-1995" (Grove Atlantic), and is
currently working on a book entitled The CANDY Men; about the satirical
book Candy--the first 'dirty book' in America. Nile spends his time
between Boulder, NYC, and Thessaloniki, Greece. He maintains the
website: http://www.terrysouthern.com. His work is also found at:
http://www.altx.com/interzones2/eco-dub/post.angelic.html
Matt
Samet, a masters in Creative Writing student at CU-Boulder, has
been an editor at Black Ice since 1998. His writings about the sport
of rock climbing, which he has been active in for the last 15 years,
appear regularly in Climbing Magazine, published in Carbondale,
Colorado. He is also the co-author of an upcoming guidebook to climbing
in the Boulder area where he makes his home, Colorado Bouldering
II. His work can be seen at www.lfino.com/matt/,
www.altx.com/profiles,
and http://www.nakedpoetry.com/.
4th November Alt-X ebooks
[20:35] *** ][mez][ has joined #trace
[20:35] <][mez][> heya helen
[20:46] *** Alan_Sondheim has joined #trace
[20:49] <Helen_Whitehead> Hi Alan
[20:49] * Alan_Sondheim is watching the edge of the hurricane
from the window here [in Florida]
[20:49] <Helen_Whitehead> yes, how is it?
[20:50] <Alan_Sondheim> Nothing much yet, there was an
early squall, but if it hits, it will be in the middle of the
night - everyone in Florida seems incredibly scared though -
I guess Hurricane Andrew put the fear into the area
[20:53] *** Jean_Smith has joined #trace
[20:54] <Jean_Smith> Hello all.
[20:55] <][mez][> heya jean:)
[20:55] <Helen_Whitehead> Hi Jean
[20:59] *** Nile_Southernecodub has joined #trace
[20:59] <Helen_Whitehead> Hi Nile! Great to see you
[20:59] <Nile_Southernecodub> hello!
[20:59] <Alan_Sondheim> Hi Nile!
[20:59] <][mez][> heya nile
[20:59] <Nile_Southernecodub> hi!
[21:02] *** Sue_Thomas has joined #trace
[21:02] <Nile_Southernecodub> hello sue
[21:02] <][mez][> heya sue:)
[21:02] <Alan_Sondheim> Hi Sue!
[21:02] <Helen_Whitehead> we'll wait a few more minutes,
give Matt time to make it, and maybe a few more
[21:02] <Sue_Thomas> how is the hurricane , alan?
[21:02] <Nile_Southernecodub> me too. just got here sue.
I'm one of the authors. Alan here too.
[21:02] <Alan_Sondheim> Hopefully a few more. I think
there are just a few of us...
[21:02] <Sue_Thomas> nice to meet you Nile - i was reading
your biog
[21:03] <Alan_Sondheim> ...addicted to chat...
[21:03] <][mez][> :)
[21:03] <Nile_Southernecodub> my first chat, alan..
[21:03] <Alan_Sondheim> Oh Nile, this is maybe my 1000th...
I envy you
[21:03] <][mez][> i have texts in the Hard_Code alt-x
book as well....but am on the backbench...:)
[21:03] <Nile_Southernecodub> break me in, buddy.
[21:03] <Alan_Sondheim> on the other hand I'm looking
at palmtrees blowing in the wind
[21:03] <][mez][> ][4 this chat, anyway:)][
[21:03] <Nile_Southernecodub> with your other hand?
[21:04] <Alan_Sondheim> please come forward mez!
[21:04] <Helen_Whitehead> we'll let you in gently Nile
and people WON'T interrupt you
[21:04] <Alan_Sondheim> my other hand's a secret
[21:04] <Nile_Southernecodub> toggle stick
[21:04] *** Margaret_Penfold has joined #trace
[21:04] <][mez][> must be very x.zill.ar][gh][rating,
alan...as well as adrenal-pumping....
[21:04] <Alan_Sondheim> if you type /me <action>
Niles, you get an action -
[21:04] <Jean_Smith> a secret hand, how handy
[21:04] <][mez][> heya marg!!:)
[21:04] * Alan_Sondheim typing with two hands
[21:04] <Nile_Southernecodub> I want some action... but
not that much.
[21:04] <][mez][> thx alan:)
[21:05] *** Margaret_Penfold is now known as Margaret
[21:05] <Alan_Sondheim> Hi Margaret!
[21:05] <Margaret> Hi Alan, long time no see
[21:05] <Alan_Sondheim> I notice this chat gives us pass-word
encoded names... ah well...
[21:06] <Margaret> Hello Jean
[21:06] <Alan_Sondheim> another form of digital world!
[21:06] <Jean_Smith> Hi Margaret!
[21:06] <Margaret> Hi Everyone
[21:06] <Sue_Thomas> hi margaret
[21:06] <Nile_Southernecodub> hi Margaret. alan--what
kind of invisible world are you maybe making visible in yr work?
[21:08] <Margaret> I'm trying to make something visible
national embarrasment made invisible for rather long
[21:08] <Alan_Sondheim> You know it's odd - I sent out
the announcement, a lot of us did, and we're back to just slightly
larger than our usual group!
[21:08] <Sue_Thomas> apathy - its a terrible thing
[21:09] *** Rebecca_ORourke has joined #trace
[21:09] <Sue_Thomas> hi rebecca
[21:09] <Rebecca_ORourke> Hello everyone - I finally made
it!
[21:10] <Margaret> Hi Rebecca
[21:10] <][mez][> heya rebecca
[21:10] <Helen_Whitehead> Perhaps we might as well start,
and Matt can join us when he makes it.....
[21:10] <Alan_Sondheim> How shall we begin?
[21:10] <Helen_Whitehead> My little helper the log will
chip in with explanations.
[21:10] <Rebecca_ORourke> Can I begin by telling you that
some of my students will be joining us for their first ever
live chat - be nice to them
[21:11] <][mez][> wow
[21:11] <Sue_Thomas> great!
[21:11] <][mez][> chat virgins;)
[21:11] <Nile_Southernecodub> some of us (me) are new
too..
[21:11] <Helen_Whitehead> We are going to be talking about
AltXs new initiative today
[21:11] <Helen_Whitehead> free ebooks....
[21:11] * ][mez][ pro.mises 2 b on herrr best b.haviour;)
[21:11] <Alan_Sondheim> I promise that mez will be too!
[21:11] <Rebecca_ORourke> Hello Nile, it's weird, but
fun.. (like a lot of stuff)
[21:11] <log> AltX claims that the imprint brings to web-readers
a must-have library of uncategorizable writing being produced
by some of the most provocative artists in contemporary new
media culture
[21:11] <][mez][> eheh alan:)
[21:11] <Nile_Southernecodub> good
[21:12] <Helen_Whitehead> Two of them are here today
[21:12] <Helen_Whitehead> Alan Sondheim, very much a chat
"oldie"
[21:12] <Helen_Whitehead> and Nile Southern who is new
to chat. Thanks for coming guys!
[21:12] <Alan_Sondheim> thanks -
[21:12] * Sue_Thomas claps
[21:12] <Rebecca_ORourke> who or what are they provoking?
[21:12] <Helen_Whitehead> We can ask them that, Rebecca!
[21:13] <Rebecca_ORourke> :-)
[21:13] <Margaret> Are there any rules of engagement -
ie like not butting in until invited
[21:13] <Alan_Sondheim> For me this is complicated - I'm
on two email lists, poetics and webartery - and I don't fit
in either - it's a kind of a negative sensibility on my part
I think - pushing categories to the extent I become invisible
ina way -
[21:13] <][mez][> yes, was wondering that myself marg
[21:13] <Helen_Whitehead> Would you care to briefly introduce
yourselves and introduce your work to the potential readers
gathered here in the chatroom? What about you Nile: Your ebook
is called EcoDub?
[21:13] <Alan_Sondheim> no rules at all please?
[21:14] <Nile_Southernecodub> ecodub is provoking media
literacy and recombinant alchemy of thought somehow through
a cinema of information
[21:14] <Helen_Whitehead> let's learn a little about the
ebooks and then later we can ask questions
[21:14] <][mez][> cinema of info.mation? can u say more
about that niles?
[21:14] <Rebecca_ORourke> please
[21:14] * ][mez][ retracts her qs
[21:14] <Helen_Whitehead> A cinema? but it's in pdf foprmat?
[21:14] *** max_zine has joined #trace
[21:15] <][mez][> hey max_zine
[21:15] <Nile_Southernecodub> I helped design the ebooks.
do we want to talk about their physicality?
[21:15] <][mez][> alan>>on the samw .wav.length
there i think....
[21:15] <Helen_Whitehead> Yes, I noticed you were the
designer. Do you know how they came about?
[21:15] <][mez][> samW=same
[21:15] <Sue_Thomas> that would be good niles
[21:15] <Alan_Sondheim> I don't know - felt odd I wasn't
included w/ the Deena Larsen compendium - altX has been terrific
that way
[21:15] <max_zine> Hi everybody
[21:16] <Alan_Sondheim> Hi!
[21:16] <Sue_Thomas> can you say which formats they work
in? I have a pocket pc, for example - wil they work in that?
[21:16] <][mez][> heya max_zine
[21:16] <Nile_Southernecodub> mark amerika--pioneer of
publishing in new envelpe push, came up with the idea of an
imprint for altx--altx web pub had been a collective for new
writing for many years. also interfaces with Fiction Collective
[21:16] <Helen_Whitehead> Hi Max_zine, we are talking
to Alan Sondheim and Nile Southern about their AltX ebooks
[21:17] *** Rebecca_ORourke has quit IRC (Timed Out )
[21:17] <Nile_Southernecodub> ebooks was the logical outgrowth
of a cool, cut edge fiction collective for this millenia--running
close to the ground--light years and moves ahead of the big
bohemoth publishers (traditional)
[21:18] <log> http://www.altx.com/ebooks/
[21:18] <max_zine> hi Helen, I'll listen in for a while
as i haven't had the experience of an e-book
[21:18] <Nile_Southernecodub> fiction collective and FC2
mandate to keep 'unpublishable novels in print' and now something
more--keep 'avant pop' work ahead of the curve of culture
[21:18] <Helen_Whitehead> these are true ebooks in pdf
format and Palm Pilot Acrobat format
[21:18] <Alan_Sondheim> Nile, I wonder if ebooks won't
take a turn towards, in a sense, total dispersion of the object
- since there are ezines, etc. - all modeled on magazines/books/objects
- now you might have a work distributed among a number of different
sites with different extensions/applications necessary, etc.
-
[21:18] *** Rebecca_ORourke has joined #trace
[21:19] <Alan_Sondheim> I think of Mez' and my work, some
of which is in the email list "format" - and I know
for myself how hard it is to republish or recapitulate this
-
[21:19] <Helen_Whitehead> In the introduction to the Black
Ice Neromantic Collection, Ron Sekenick says that writing for
the screen is not the same as writing for the page...
[21:19] *** Carrie_McMillan has joined #trace
[21:19] <Sue_Thomas> alan you'd have to be online for
that though - it would be harder to be portable
[21:19] <Alan_Sondheim> so there's a movement between
process and object here that's unique to the Net I think -
[21:19] <Nile_Southernecodub> sounds ideal--and very much
like the kind of music mark amerika makes--so this would be
a natural way for him to direct things. where's the capital?!
[21:19] <Helen_Whitehead> ...but how does delivering a
book in pdf format add anything beyond the page?
[21:19] <Alan_Sondheim> Sue, not if you download flash
for example, or any other plugins...
[21:19] <max_zine> I use a Psion 5MX could e-books be
downloaded to a Psion?
[21:19] <Margaret> I thought ebooks were text only
[21:20] <Sue_Thomas> alan but you suggested distributed
across different sites
[21:20] <Sue_Thomas> maybe i am confused
[21:20] <max_zine> Hi Rebecca
[21:20] <Nile_Southernecodub> the page is now electronic,
helen--but I see your point... static?
[21:20] <Alan_Sondheim> True, Sue -in that case you'd
have to be connected (or the sites could even be mirrored on
a cdrom)
[21:20] <Rebecca_ORourke> Hi Max, I managed to get lost
there...
[21:20] <][mez][> egg.actly alan. my contribution that's
n.cluded in the Hrad-Code ebook [ed. eugenne thacker][was not
the mezanglled version that i n.dicated but the translated version...agian,
that recourse to traditionality even here....
[21:20] <Sue_Thomas> thats what i'm thinking - but not
a cdrom - no room
[21:20] <Helen_Whitehead> Nile's book uses colour and
pictures
[21:20] <Alan_Sondheim> Margaret, you can have images
etc. embedded...
[21:20] <max_zine> thought you nipped out for coffee
[21:21] <Alan_Sondheim> Mez, is that out?
[21:21] <Rebecca_ORourke> If only
[21:21] <Helen_Whitehead> but wasn;'t it written a long
time ago Nile? Before the era of the Web?
[21:21] <Margaret> and sound, Alan?
[21:21] <Alan_Sondheim> Interesting, Margaret - if electronic
paper comes along, there's no reason why animation/sound couldn't
be included...
[21:21] <Sue_Thomas> electronic paper was due this summer
[21:21] <][mez][> yup, is n.cluded in the ebooks from
alt-x [sorry 4 the typoh title is Hard_Code]
[21:21] <Sue_Thomas> according to last year;'s Wired
[21:22] <Alan_Sondheim> I don't think the Acrobat .pdf
can handle sound -
[21:22] <][mez][> yeah i read that sue...wonder wots happened
2 it....
[21:22] <Nile_Southernecodub> I conceived ecodub in 1992
as 'screen-based fiction' and my approach to the writing (using
images which comment aesthetically and philosophically) was
unique. Also pdf allows a 'navigated experience' for reading
a text...
[21:22] <Sue_Thomas> mez - like so many other things it
must have not made it :(
[21:22] <Alan_Sondheim> Wired is always short-circuited,
good grief. For an update look at the current Scientific American
[21:22] <Helen_Whitehead> Does this AltX initiative supprot
experiemntal writing -- writing on the edge -- otherwise unpublishable
writing -- but not entirely new media writing?
[21:22] <Rebecca_ORourke> Are we joking about the electronic
paper?
[21:22] <][mez][> yup sure, un.4.tune.atley:(
[21:22] <Sue_Thomas> Nile can yoiu say why your approach
was unique?
[21:22] <Alan_Sondheim> No - it's in the works -
[21:23] <Sue_Thomas> Rebecca no - it looked fantastic
[21:23] <Alan_Sondheim> check out the magazine -
[21:23] <Sue_Thomas> being developed in sweden
[21:23] <Sue_Thomas> hang on folks
[21:23] *** Feathers has joined #trace
[21:23] <Nile_Southernecodub> it was unique for me--as
I had never used images--and I knew it looked best on screen.
acrobat was just out--and it allows you to zoom in on your text
in beautiful vector rendered fonts--the ultimate test of your
mojo--see it magnified at 400%
[21:23] <Sue_Thomas> I think we are getting dispersed!
[21:23] <][mez][> heya feathers
[21:24] <Sue_Thomas> shall we slow down a bit?
[21:24] <Feathers> hi mez
[21:24] <Rebecca_ORourke> WHat this discussion reminds
me of is the way early early books - pre-print - were a mixture
of words, images and the phsyicality of the paper/vellum and
inks then
[21:24] <Alan_Sondheim> Sure Sue -
[21:24] <Nile_Southernecodub> ok--
[21:24] <Helen_Whitehead> How do you feel about your works
being available free? Nile, Alan?
[21:24] <Sue_Thomas> Nile, thanks, I see
[21:25] <Alan_Sondheim> Great! I give away my cdroms when
I can as well or just charge at cost -
[21:25] <Helen_Whitehead> To give people the experience....
but how will you make money ;)
[21:25] <Margaret> You never gave me a CD Alan
[21:25] <max_zine> No royalties at all?
[21:25] <Margaret> But you did give me a book for which
I am very grateful
[21:26] <Sue_Thomas> max_zine they have to be sold before
one c\an get royalties and selling them is still hard
[21:26] <Alan_Sondheim> Through teaching, or teaching
at trAce! - Margaret ??? - send me your address & postage
-
[21:26] <Sue_Thomas> they are so very new
[21:26] <Nile_Southernecodub> the navigation part is different.
I believe you can do a kind of 'MTV' version of your text--where
you only see parts of the text/images at high magnification--allowing
the user to literally get 'lost' or found between the lines...
I have to confess that i did not build that into the current
version...
[21:26] <Helen_Whitehead> Is this the only way to distribute
such experimental texts? free?
[21:27] <Rebecca_ORourke> It wouldn't be the case with
music, would it?
[21:27] <Helen_Whitehead> this is an issue in print publishing
too -- they are linked here
[21:27] <Alan_Sondheim> You could also charge, and there's
a limited audience for that - I've sold maybe 300-400 cdroms,
but that's nothing much -
[21:27] <Alan_Sondheim> With music there's mp3 distribution
- providing your work remains within bandwidth (mine doesn't)
[21:27] <Margaret> I think you did well there, Alan
[21:27] <Carrie_McMillan> I'm interested in that too Helen.
It's accessible cos it's free, but is experimental writing in
itself accessible? Should it be?
[21:27] <Helen_Whitehead> good question Carrie
[21:27] <Nile_Southernecodub> it is free because we are
building an audience--it is not the 'experimental' nature of
the work--a pejorative today, I'm afraid
[21:28] <Helen_Whitehead> yes, that's what I was driving
at I think!
[21:28] <Sue_Thomas> i think building an audience is an
important point
[21:28] <Margaret> Hasn't it always been so, Nile
[21:28] <Nile_Southernecodub> if we compare the altx imprint
with that of a record label--which label would it be?
[21:28] <Alan_Sondheim> But Carrie, is Proust accessible?
Chaucer? Shakespeare? James Ellroy? Irigaray or Derrida? This
depends on the reader, expectations, environment, investment,
commitment, etc. -
[21:28] <Alan_Sondheim> Rhino?
[21:28] <Sue_Thomas> and lets face it, much new media
work is part of a learning processs in itself - it isnt always
very polished, not does it aim to be
[21:28] <Helen_Whitehead> it can be done best by distribution
on the Web, this offering work to new audiences
[21:29] <Carrie_McMillan> So building the audience should
build that commitment.
[21:29] <][mez][> gotta go all, alan take care and thx
all:)
[21:29] *** ][mez][ has quit IRC (QUIT: .i.dream.the.n e X ][t][
us. )
[21:29] <Margaret> If text , yes, Helen
[21:29] <Nile_Southernecodub> Rhino is good by mez
[21:29] <Rebecca_ORourke> Yes, it is and I think even
where small press print charges for the mag or pamphlet there
is so much gift labour involved they are free, in a way. And
I like that, but perhaps becuase I earn my money somewhere else.
[21:29] <Alan_Sondheim> Helen, or by cdrom - where you
can have video/full audio/just about anything else - crossreferenced,
etc. and later on, very soon, dvd -
[21:29] <Helen_Whitehead> but how are the new audiences
going to react to something which even the editor said (I'm
quoting Ron Sukenick again) that he doesn't understand?
[21:29] <Margaret> If remains within bandwidth, yes Helen
[21:30] <Alan_Sondheim> I can't speak for Ron! I certainly
understand...
[21:30] <Nile_Southernecodub> people are flocking to the
alchemy of change captured in these materials. CNN does not
explain --we realize there is a different kind of storytelling
more useful than ever...
[21:30] <Rebecca_ORourke> Helen, people didn't understand
modernism once upon a time
[21:30] <Sue_Thomas> i am not sure these arguments are
specific to new media writing - they are more about any experimental
art no matter whart the form or medium
[21:31] <Helen_Whitehead> that's very true, and I think
that these works are experimental first and electronic second,
almost
[21:31] <Rebecca_ORourke> Sue, I agree - sometimes it
is good to be puzzled
[21:31] <Alan_Sondheim> Exactly, and "experimental"
can only be defined in terms of everything from history to demographics,
zeitgeist, environment, cultural economy, etc.
[21:31] <Helen_Whitehead> what do you mean by the "alchemy
of change" Nile?
[21:31] <Nile_Southernecodub> 'avant pop' is something
to consider: using the detritus of contemporary thought and
popular commercial culture--recycling it into the work--making
new meanings
[21:31] <Sue_Thomas> but there are successful online narratives
- which are not so disc\ussed in this community - i am thinking
of things like online caroline
[21:32] <Rebecca_ORourke> sue, what is that?
[21:32] <Alan_Sondheim> Nile, I've seen that a lot and
don't see necessarily why that's experimental? It's being done
for years - look at the Fruits movement in Japan for example
-
[21:32] <Margaret> Online Coroline, Sue?
[21:32] <Nile_Southernecodub> is Negativeland experimental?
I digress.
[21:32] <Rebecca_ORourke> Alan, Fruits?
[21:33] <Nile_Southernecodub> yes--pls tell us of caroline...
[21:33] <Sue_Thomas> http://www.onlinecaroline.com/
its interactive soap
[21:33] <Helen_Whitehead> So really the AltX ebook works
arise out of a body of previous non-electronic work -- such
as?
[21:33] <Alan_Sondheim> Nile I'd think so for a lot of
reasons - Rebecca - a street movement in Tokyo with wildstyle
fashion -
[21:33] *** Jo_Stevens has joined #trace
[21:33] <Sue_Thomas> has been going almost 2 years
[21:33] <Rebecca_ORourke> Jo, hello!
[21:33] <Sue_Thomas> hi jo
[21:33] <Alan_Sondheim> Helen - not my stuff I'd think
-
[21:33] <Helen_Whitehead> Hi Jo! Welcome to the Chat.
We are talking to Alan and Nile about their experimental texts
released as free ebooks
[21:34] <max_zine> welcome Jo been waiting ....
[21:34] <Sue_Thomas> rebecca are jo and max your students?
[21:34] * Alan_Sondheim is also watching the squalls pick up
with rain and blowing palms out the window
[21:34] <Helen_Whitehead> I mean the works develop experimental
writing into the electronic form?
[21:34] <Rebecca_ORourke> Nile, can I go back to the audience
builidng issue. Where is that audience, and how do you if it
is being built and which way it leans?
[21:34] *** Mike_Byrne has joined #trace
[21:34] <Rebecca_ORourke> Hi Mike
[21:34] <Jean_Smith> Is your work experimental for you,
for your reader, or is it a genre?
[21:34] <Sue_Thomas> hi mike
[21:35] <Helen_Whitehead> Hi Mike, NIle and Alan and telling
us about how their free ebooks are trying to build new audiences
[21:35] <Nile_Southernecodub> I mean the spirit of the
work--and I don't mean to generalize--alan's work is (I think!)
deeply personal and immersive into his world--the 'avant pop'
impulse is to include the audience into the world which previously
was swirling around them but they couldn't fictionalize or really
see
[21:35] <Sue_Thomas> jean thats a good question - who
is it experimental for -
[21:35] <Mike_Byrne> good evening well at last I managwed
to acccess this temple of technology
[21:35] *** max_zine has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer
)
[21:35] <Mike_Byrne> why is it so difficult? these days
? never mind I was reading the Mirror anyway.
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[21:36] <Alan_Sondheim> Jean, for me it's not experimental,
but uncomfortable - pushing the boundaries (as much as I can)
of what I write, recognize as language/literature/sexuality/
or body -and hopefully my readers are attuned to this - if not
after a single text, at least after the resonance of a group
of them -
[21:36] <Rebecca_ORourke> Nile,do you think they couldn't
see it becaus eit was fictionalised, or couldn't fictionalise
itbeciase they couldn't see it?
[21:36] <Sue_Thomas> hi connie
[21:36] <Nile_Southernecodub> I think the audience is
the same audience that always looks for innovation within the
'conventional' forms... pdf is our new 'conventional form' the
audience is the same--but there are now new ways of seeing--and
bringing them into it.
[21:36] <Connie_Brigadoon> Hello everyone
[21:36] * Alan_Sondheim wants to say hello to everyone coming
on as well -
[21:37] <Mike_Byrne> Hi Sue,
[21:37] <Rebecca_ORourke> Hi Connie
[21:37] *** max_zine has joined #trace
[21:37] <Mike_Byrne> hi Alan
[21:37] <Alan_Sondheim> Hi -
[21:37] <Margaret> Jean, Alan is the only person I know
who could use use a television set as a metaphor foor a vagina
[21:37] <Sue_Thomas> ??
[21:37] <Helen_Whitehead> I'm interested that you are
using the pdf format as your art medium in which to experiment.
I must confess I had not thought it flexible enough to attempt
such a thing with
[21:37] <Rebecca_ORourke> I like this idea of pdf as conventional
form - its still scary technology to me...
[21:37] <Nile_Southernecodub> hi new folks and welcome...
fiction--I mean it is not everyone who can look at a bus and
think of an exhaust sucker character that would be sucking it
off to create a new meaning of 'bus' today...
[21:37] <Alan_Sondheim> Margaret where on earth did I
do that? Radio, yes, but a television set? :-)
[21:37] <Jean_Smith> Thanks for that info Margaret.
[21:38] <Jean_Smith> You got my figured out, eh?
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[21:38] <Mike_Byrne> Hi Jean,
[21:38] <Carrie_McMillan> I'm still not familiar enough
with pdf. what's good about it?
[21:38] <Helen_Whitehead> Is it a bit like abstract art?
[21:39] <Helen_Whitehead> this form, I mean
[21:39] <Jean_Smith> Hi ya, Mike!
[21:39] <Jean_Smith> Hi Mike
[21:39] <Helen_Whitehead> looking at the world in a different
way
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[21:39] <Alan_Sondheim> Nile, do you think the .pdf format,
then, is a kind of standard or protocol for experimental writing?
I'd hope someday we could also publish flash or other forms
including audio/video within it - that the ebook format will
grow to encompass these things - you might have a whole confluence
of delivery systems...
[21:39] <Connie_Brigadoon> I am facinated by the idea.
I don't understand it enough to attempt it.
[21:39] <Margaret> I thought pdf were acrobat files, Carrie
but I may be wrong
[21:40] <Alan_Sondheim> They are
[21:40] <Carrie_McMillan> does that mean they do tricks?
:)
[21:40] <Helen_Whitehead> will all the ebooks be pdf or
will the include other forms of new media, such as Alan has
mentioned?
[21:40] <Nile_Southernecodub> pdf is simply a 'picture'
of a page. BUT you can also navigate the users experience through
it--like a web experience... the difference is we create the
pdf from quark--which is the industry standard for commercial
culture/art design/everything we see perfexctly laid out...
[21:40] <Helen_Whitehead> no, Carries, pdf is a very static
format, but Nile does different things with it -- colour, graphics,
zooming in and out
[21:40] <Rebecca_ORourke> Carrie, I think they do when
Nile and Alan have theirhands on them...
[21:40] <Margaret> No Carrie, they just make the text
clearer amd less easy to copy
[21:40] <Alan_Sondheim> .pdf also seems to allow the publish-on-demand
books in the real world to mirror the online books - but there
might eventually be greater and greater gaps between them -
[21:41] <Helen_Whitehead> it's quite subversive really...
[21:41] <Nile_Southernecodub> when you have total control
over your layout--which never happened before on the web for
hundreds of pages--tand use that as a basis--that is a very
powerful basis for an artist seeking to control an audience's
experience..
[21:41] <Connie_Brigadoon> I've noticed pdf files on a
lot of pares and also press releases that don't allow you to
download the information. I don't understand how you can navigate
through a picture.
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[21:41] <Helen_Whitehead> i still think it's not new media
unless it CAN'T be printed!
[21:41] <Alan_Sondheim> Hi Reiner!!!!!!!!!!!
[21:41] <reiner> hello
[21:41] <Margaret> Agreed, Helen
[21:41] <Helen_Whitehead> I think pdf can have hyperlinks
within it. Is that right Nile?
[21:42] <Sue_Thomas> hi reiner
[21:42] <Nile_Southernecodub> pdf can have hidden and
visible hyperlinks, yes
[21:42] <Alan_Sondheim> Helen, that's too limiting - then
a lot of what Mez and I do are tradition, even though it might
be computer generated or interactive at first
[21:42] <Sue_Thomas> nile can i ask a format question?
[21:42] <Carrie_McMillan> Can you really navigate for
a reader? I thought they'd be too independent, bolshy...
[21:42] <Helen_Whitehead> Hello Reiner, Nile and A;lan
are explaining their subversive use of pdf formats
[21:42] <Nile_Southernecodub> sure--shoot!
[21:42] <Connie_Brigadoon> Really? That's interesting.
I've never encountered that, except for imigaes produced by
flash. Are they pdf?
[21:42] <reiner> ah - pdf
[21:42] <Sue_Thomas> i have looked on the site - it seems
that this is not compatible with my iPaq pocket pc - is that
right?
[21:43] <Alan_Sondheim> most likely - Adobe's got the
patents
[21:43] <Margaret> Alan, a lot of what you are doing isIMO
experimental but not NewMedia
[21:43] <Helen_Whitehead> i didn't say text that isn't
new media is always tradition -- what you and mez do is not
necessarily new media but it IS new
[21:43] <Rebecca_ORourke> Margaret, explain please IMO
[21:43] <Margaret> in my opinion Rebecca
[21:44] <Alan_Sondheim> Margaret, I just don't differentiate.
If I do a text that's a description of a video script that's
produced with the audio also offered spearately, it's all new
media, all a kind of cultural flow. I don't think of the texts
as objects or literature in any traditional sense, any more
than any of the other formats I'd use
[21:44] <Rebecca_ORourke> Of course.... but Helen, are
we saying writing isn't a "media"?
[21:44] <Nile_Southernecodub> we at altx would like to
bring authors like alan to new media--but this is ironic--for
alan is a new media artist... there is still a lot of lag--and
technical challenges--bery mundane
[21:44] <Sue_Thomas> nile - format?
[21:45] <Helen_Whitehead> hmm, Rebecca, depends on how
you look at it -- writing has to appear in some format or medium
[21:45] <Nile_Southernecodub> for instance--alan has fixed
line lengths--which drive any publisher mad--becuase some of
them are very long. but someday, the electronic aspect will
help to achive it without the 'idea' or fact of fixed line lengths
[21:45] <Alan_Sondheim> one does what Aram Saroyan used
to call "filling out the form" - if I'm doing video,
I won't give it to Alt-X - the same with performance, etc. Likewise
I won't do text at a video show (well I might)
[21:45] <Margaret> I won't be happy until speech becomes
inexpensive in terms of memory
[21:45] <Helen_Whitehead> so the electronic format is
a natural one for a writer/artist like Alan!
[21:46] <Nile_Southernecodub> well put, margaret
[21:46] <Alan_Sondheim> Nile - those lengths stop at 76
characters - they're determined as you know by standard email
lenght
[21:46] <Alan_Sondheim> (Nile and I had a mess with my
text because it's fixed-spaced monospaced and that's difficult
in Acrobat ironically!)
[21:46] <Helen_Whitehead> so they ARE new media.... because
that is where they are written and where they are intended to
be read. and THAT'S why they cause a problem for print -- QED
[21:47] <Carrie_McMillan> do you compromise much cos of
the media Alan?
[21:47] <Nile_Southernecodub> alan knows where to put
what when. He shoots in video, composes in text, puts the two
together--unfortunately, the venues are still fairly static.
altx is releasing ebooks that 'capture' the dynamism of these
exciting ideas.
[21:47] <Alan_Sondheim> I don't thnk at all, Carrie -
I'll write into it or them?
[21:47] <Alan_Sondheim> Nile, that's absolutely true!
[21:47] <Connie_Brigadoon> Alan is quite talented. His
work has made me want to give it a try. But I am nervious about
starting to produce pages that rich in text in poetic pictures.
[21:48] <Alan_Sondheim> I used to be nervous - then I
was influenced by the poet Clark Coolidge, a friend at the time
-
[21:48] <Nile_Southernecodub> 'print' is always a problem.
[21:48] <Alan_Sondheim> he said - why not just go ahead
- you have nothing whatsoever to lose -
[21:48] <Alan_Sondheim> and besides it's exhilerating...
[21:48] <Alan_Sondheim> just to watch yourself cross over
boundaries you've set for yourself...
[21:49] <Connie_Brigadoon> Alan, is it expensive to produce?
[21:49] <Helen_Whitehead> yes, we can all benefit from
pushing ourselves over boundaries even just occasionally
[21:49] <Alan_Sondheim> Nile would know that better than
me - the tools I use are generally freeware or shareware -
[21:49] <Nile_Southernecodub> you have big machines, giant
expenses, 300 dpi concerns, the ebooks we are producing are
composed first to Publishing On Demand (print) standards--which
is why they look so good.
[21:50] <Margaret> Acrobat, the full version, is expemsive
[21:50] <Rebecca_ORourke> Helen/Sue - could Trace do a
boundaries project, like home and noon quilt??
[21:50] <Connie_Brigadoon> Really? Wow! care to share
the site where I could download the shareware?
[21:50] <Carrie_McMillan> better go, cheers everyone
[21:50] <Sue_Thomas> sure
[21:50] <Helen_Whitehead> yes, Boundaries is a great idea
for a project
[21:50] *** Carrie_McMillan has left #trace
[21:50] <Nile_Southernecodub> cheers
[21:50] <Rebecca_ORourke> Nile, not because Carrie has
left????
[21:50] <Mike_Byrne> Is there an introduction anywhere
to what you're talking about, because I don't follow it?
[21:50] <Nile_Southernecodub> I'm here
[21:50] <Helen_Whitehead> You can convert pages printed
to Postcript into pdf via free Websites -- all you need is to
install a virtual; postscript printer
[21:50] <Sue_Thomas> rebecca we may have something like
that coming up - watch this space
[21:51] <Alan_Sondheim> Bye - Connie, I use blender, www.blender.nl,
audiomulch, www.audiomulch.com, gimp in linux, perl for windows
and linux (you can find it online), various editors in linux/unix
- they're all for free, as is the operating system -
[21:51] <Helen_Whitehead> http://www.ps2pdf.com
[21:51] <Nile_Southernecodub> you need to use postscript
fonts as well...
[21:51] <Alan_Sondheim> We're talking about altX books
and the Adobe Acrobat format in which they're issued -
[21:51] <Helen_Whitehead> Mike we're talking about the
free ebooks available at the AltX site: http://www.altx.com/ebooks
[21:52] <Mike_Byrne> Thanks, Helen.
[21:52] <Alan_Sondheim> By the way for video - there are
programs in Mac (iMovie) and MovieMaker in XP and MovieShaker
in Sony Viao - as well as a number of inexpensive small programs
out there -
[21:52] <Nile_Southernecodub> postscript fonts are 'vector'
based, so you have beautiful smoothing--which is a wonderful
aspect to bringing the pdf/text into new media realm--for you
can 'blow up' the word 'explosion' to fill the screen and look
like 1 million dollar explosion not bitty pac-man..
[21:52] <Margaret> If the ebooks are in .pdf format can
you read them onn your PC using Acrobat5 reader
[21:53] <Alan_Sondheim> Vector graphics are definitely
the way to go if you can -
[21:53] <Helen_Whitehead> but can't you do that on the
Web too?
[21:53] <Connie_Brigadoon> Thanks Alan. I wrote them down
and I'll check it out.
[21:53] <Helen_Whitehead> Flash comes to mind
[21:53] <Nile_Southernecodub> yes--reader will read cross
platform..
[21:53] <Alan_Sondheim> Definitely in flash... -
[21:53] <Margaret> But flash is so slow
[21:53] <Helen_Whitehead> Nile's actually takes quite
a while to download, because of the pictures
[21:53] <Nile_Southernecodub> web is not vector. look
at any italics. unless it is prebuilt as a (text) image...
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[21:53] <Helen_Whitehead> but it only needs acrobat reader
to see it
[21:54] <Connie_Brigadoon> I know that Apple just won
an Emmy award for its roll in producing movies for Holliwood.
The new boards and software available are amazing. Too bad I
don't have a high end Mac anymore!
[21:54] *** Jo_Stevens has joined #trace
[21:54] <Alan_Sondheim> Margaret, depends on who's doing
it - also lines are generally getting faster -
[21:54] <Margaret> But sound still takes for ages in Flash
[21:54] <Alan_Sondheim> Connie, I noticed that the latest
Ibook costs only $1294 - which is a huge drop - keep tuned...
[21:54] <Alan_Sondheim> You're right Margaret. -
[21:54] <Helen_Whitehead> Shame Matt didn't make it....
[21:55] <Nile_Southernecodub> matt samet? editor of neuromantic
fiction?
[21:55] <Margaret> But isn't the ibook limited in its
ports?
[21:55] <Connie_Brigadoon> Yes, I will. I used to work
as a purchasing agent for an Apple dealer so I have a discount
waiting for me when I'm ready.
[21:55] <Helen_Whitehead> yes, he was coming too Nile
-- perhaps he had the time wrong, that's always a problem this
time of year!
[21:55] <Alan_Sondheim> Margaret, still has firewire -
there are always ways to make do -
[21:56] <Helen_Whitehead> OK, Alan, Nile, is there any
summing up or last statement you'd like to make before we close.
Why should we go away and download your books?
[21:56] * Alan_Sondheim watching the clouds turning more steam-like
and lower, a bit more threatening but beautiful
[21:56] <reiner> tsss - an iBook discussion (Margaret,
i own one - enough ports - all which are necessary;)
[21:56] <Margaret> Thanks Reiner
[21:57] <Sue_Thomas> thanks a lot - this has been very
interesting
[21:57] <Alan_Sondheim> Nile, just want to say, what astounds
me, is that there is very little Web-CINEMA - which could encompass
so much - all that experimental/independent filmwork out there...
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[21:58] <Rebecca_ORourke> Bye - and thanks, see you next
time
[21:58] <Alan_Sondheim> and it's not yet available, doesn't
have much of a presence - to me flash is still a shadow of what's
possible -
[21:58] <Nile_Southernecodub> and the next level will
be to approximate the cinema of information overload--like Mark's
new work in progress cinetext/filmtexty
[21:58] <Sue_Thomas> bye everyone - i have to go too
[21:58] <Sue_Thomas> be safe alan
[21:58] <Connie_Brigadoon> Bye Sue!
[21:58] *** max_zine has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer
)
[21:58] <Alan_Sondheim> why OVERLOAD? I just don't see
that - thanks, Sue
[21:58] <Margaret> Yes there was an article on that in
the Guardian - reckons that is why broadband hasn't taken off
in Britain
[21:58] <Sue_Thomas> bye all
[21:58] *** Sue_Thomas has left #trace
[21:59] <Alan_Sondheim> why not something like Immemoria
-
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[21:59] <Alan_Sondheim> bye everyone ..
[21:59] <Nile_Southernecodub> by--overload because it
cannot be captured apprehended by normal minds/artists (excepting
you, sir!)
[21:59] <Connie_Brigadoon> Bye Allen. Thanks for the info!
[21:59] <Mike_Byrne> Hi Connie, thanks How are you ?
[21:59] <Alan_Sondheim> or maybe twisting pathways into
and out of { }
[21:59] <Helen_Whitehead> Thank you very much for coming,
Alan and Nile, it's been eyeopening
[22:00] <Alan_Sondheim> thank you, Helen
[22:00] *** Maria_Nicklin has quit IRC (QUIT: )
[22:00] <Nile_Southernecodub> bye everyone--than you too--watch
this space ( )
[22:00] <Connie_Brigadoon> Mike, I'm good. Thanks
[22:00] <Mike_Byrne> bye
[22:00] <Helen> the log will be avilable on the site as
soon as possible
[22:00] <Mike_Byrne> good Connie good to see you
[22:00] <Margaret> Thank you very much, Alan and Nile
[22:00] <Connie_Brigadoon> I enjoyed this chat.
[22:00] <Alan_Sondheim> Thanks everyone -
[22:00] <Helen> hope your first chat experience wasn't
too daunting Nile?
[22:00] *** Margaret has left #trace
[22:01] <Alan_Sondheim> (Nile I was thinking of Chris
Marker)
[22:01] <Nile_Southernecodub> what about the great craig?
[22:01] *** Rebecca_ORourke has quit IRC (Timed Out )
[22:01] <Alan_Sondheim> Craig Marker?
[22:01] <Nile_Southernecodub> baldwin--spectres of the
spectrum
[22:01] <Alan_Sondheim> Ah - I haven't seen that -
[22:01] <Nile_Southernecodub> or tribulation 99?
[22:02] *** Maria_Nicklin has joined #trace
[22:02] <Alan_Sondheim> I've seen that somewhere I think
- I don't remember at this point - I forget the work of his
I've seen -
[22:02] *** Maria_Nicklin has quit IRC (QUIT: )
[22:02] *** Maria_Nicklin has joined #trace
[22:02] <Alan_Sondheim> Hi Maria are you having problems?
[22:02] <Nile_Southernecodub> marker has done excellent
vid work--you're right. watch ( ) some space for a marker mark
in cyber... and you?
[22:03] <Maria_Nicklin> I certainly am Alan.....changing
identity being one of them!!
[22:03] <Alan_Sondheim> I was thinking of his Immemoria
which is a cdrom -
[22:03] <Nile_Southernecodub> is immemoria with 2 screens?
[22:03] <Helen> OK, we are officially finished, but please
feel free to stay around and continue chatting!
[22:04] <Nile_Southernecodub> thank you helen, and thaks
for your excellent moderation!
[22:04] <Alan_Sondheim> THe one I have is a single cdrom
- it's a compilation of texts/images/audio/video that has limited
interaction but has a great deal of information and a kind of
Markerian (?) melancholy
[22:04] <Alan_Sondheim> and thank you Helen as well!
[22:04] <Helen> you're welcome, come again!
[22:04] <Alan_Sondheim> It also has a beautiful way of
entering/leaving the materials - as opposed to my cdroms which
are basically directories -
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[22:05] <Nile_Southernecodub> I guess filmmakers will
always be trying to get the thing on Ch 4 and BBC before 'stooping'
to the net. But CD Rom perfect for Chris Marker--and why 'waste'
time with interactivity--probably not his bag then/now...?
[22:05] <Alan_Sondheim> It's a beautiful work - yes, I've
also got a lot of questions about interactivity - part of me
never wants to let go -
[22:06] <Alan_Sondheim> Bye Bye
[22:06] <Nile_Southernecodub> I'm saying bye bye and thanks
for everything--talk to you later
[22:06] *** Alan_Sondheim has quit IRC (QUIT: )
[22:07] <Nile_Southernecodub> not sure how to disappear--ghost
in the machine!
[22:07] *** Feathers has quit IRC (QUIT: )
[22:07] <Helen> just close the window....
[22:08] *** Nile_Southernecodub has left #trace
--
End log: Sunday 4th November 2001, 22.08 pm
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