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frAme5: Digital Labour, for Love or Money?
18th February 2001

In the trAce room at LinguaMOO:

Present: Sue, _m, Deena, Marvella, Mazzy, Cleo, mezchine, MichelleG, Helen, Loki93c

Deena says, "Would everyone introduce themselves?"
Deena shares a URL...

http://www.helptalen.org/frame.htm

mezchine is a ][net][wor][k][dsmith.

_m is just some guy. He used to or still does do hypertext-like stuff.

Mazzy is Pauline Masurel

Cleo says, "Cleo is Claire Dinsmore"

Helen says, "We should give people time to arrive, especially if they haven't MOOed before"

Marvella glances at clock 3:58

Cleo it seems everyone here is involved with the issue. any readers present?

Brock arrives.

mezchine freezes in place, an ice sculp.toure.....

Marvella waves wildly to Helen and Sue

Sue says, "hey christy!"

Brock says, "I am a visitor from Brock University, met MazThing last night. we have our own Moo"

Marvella says, "If only I could remember how to do things here from week to week!"

Sue says, "where is Brock Univ?"

reiner arrives.

Deena says, "Hi reiner!"

Brock says, "Check it out sometime, http://webct.brocku.ca:7000/ "

reiner says, "hello"

Marvella hugs Reiner

Cleo says, "hey, the title of my piece is wrong - it's "The Dazzle as Question""

Brock says, "Brock U in in St Catharines, Ontario canada"

mezchine says, "elloah reiner:)"

Cleo says, "hello reiner. welcome"

Sue says, "thanks Brock, i will take a look"

Marvella says, "wants a mezchine"

Deena Rereads and blushes...

Marvella says, "I want a mezmachine"

Cleo thanks :)

Brock says, "sure, visit anytime. we're having our own discussion tonite, at 6 pm eastern, so add 5 hrs to that--Someone TOADED someone else in our moo."

mezchine hands marvella a script log, m.bossed with cryptic yellow sym][hyper][bols...

Marvella says, "This will become my prized possession."

Helen says, "where's your moo Brock?"

mezchine float][ation][s, a grin spreading thru her ink-blotted text tendrils....

Brock says, "Hmm? The url is http://webct.brocku.ca:7000/

margie arrives.

Loki93c says, "thanx Mazzy"

Deena passes around charms to ward off toads

Brock says, "good idea, Deena!"

MichelleG hangs a charm around her neck.

Marvella kisses Margie on both cheeks

margie says, "oh jeez, everything coming back--hi all!"

Marvella lapses into French

Brock places the charm around her neck

Deena says, "Margie, are you guys having blackouts stilll..."

margie says, "no, we haven't had any blackouts recently, be we are still on stage 3 alert!"

margie says, "my golly, huge number of folks here!1"

Deena Stretches her arms wide and welcomes everyone

Helen echoes that

margie says, "Michelle, I really enjoyed your article--so much good to think about!"

Deena says, "Great. Well, we have lots of people here and will still welcome more as they come in..."

Deena says, "Welcome to the trAce chat on trAce's new work, frAmes"

MichelleG [to margie]: "Thanks for the kind words.

Helen says, "We must congratulate Christy and the contributors right away for a wonderful issue of frAme"

margie says, "And Christy--such a fine job you did--"

Sue says, "yes congratulations and thanks"

mezchine holds 14 chrome strainds, hovering 2gether ova a flat circiutry harp. they begin 2 tingle, a.live...

Deena Yes three thousand cheers for frames

margie says, "you are a marvel, indeed"

Marvella says, "Thanks, Helen and thanks to all the contributors, many of whom are here!"

Cleo says, "who is michelle and what is the article?"

Loki93c says, "i think i'm back now"

mezchine says, "is christy here??"

Deena says, "Could the frAme authors and Christy introduce themselves?"

Marvella says, "Yes, I am marvella"

Helen says, "Christy introduce yourself!"

Brock says, "yes, please"

margie says, "Michelle wrote about the responsibility of educators to let students know about the work conditions in the digital field"

reiner says, "ah"

Cleo says, "yes, it's beautiful - afraid i haven't had a chance to peruse it yet though"

margie says, "Christy IS THE MARVAELLA"

Helen says, "So Marvella the mermaid is our talented editor, Christy. I am Helen Whitehead of trAce. Anyone else care to introduce themselves?"

Deena lights up as she recognizes Christy as the marvel she is

reiner says, "marvelous?"

Everdeen arrives.

Saada arrives.

Marvella says, "Yes, many of us have physical problems that Michelle talks about--problems related to the computer"

joelweishaus arrives.

mezchine is an autured agent, a ][net][wor][k][dsmithian who chews text and spitpaints lectric m.mages [aka an net.artist who has been caught in the netwurk for a full 6 years now]

Marvella warmly greets Saada

Sue says, "I'm Sue Thomas, Director of trAce - trAce commissions these editions of frAme"

margie says, "I'm Margie, Luesebrink, M.D. and right now tax-weary!!"

Mazzy is Pauline Masurel, contributor to frAme5 and longtime member of trAce

Deena says, "welcome everyone! we are introducing our guests: editors and writers of frAme"

Cleo says, "hello joel - welcome my friend"

margie says, "nice piece, Pauline!"

Loki93c says, "Loki93c is Loki93c The CyberMancer"

joelweishaus says, "hi all""

reiner says, "i am reiner ;)"

Helen says, "It's great to see so many of our contributors here"

Saada says, "Hello everyone beautiful cover"

margie says, "hi reiner. my e-mails have been bvoucing..laterly"

MichelleG is an academic and sometimes digital labor activist.

joelweishaus says, "I mean hi Margie""

Deena says, "You can see frAme by clicking on the link http://www.helptalen.org/frame.htm at the right, it will open into a new window. You can also see short bios by clicking on the names--which will open in the same page..."

Sue says, "Welcome everyone and thank you very much for all your hard work - we are very proud to publish frAme"

margie says, "ha"

Nicki arrives.

Deena says, "It is so great to see so many dedicated workers and excited people in the digital field!"

Marvella says, "Thanks, Saada"

Helen says, "This is the second frAme that Christy has edited, and both Valentine's treats!"

Cleo says, "Claire Dinsmore, contributor ever enthralled with the question of the media/um ..."

mezchine says, "marvella the outakes r fantastic as well as the main..."

margie says, "Sue, frAme fills a real need in the community to have ongoing discussion about our work like this"

Deena says, "I would like to lead cheers and congratulations for frAme"

Marvella says, "Yes, all the beautful people. Thanks mezzie"

Sue says, "good Margie, I'm glad"

Deena claps.

Everdeen claps.

Sue says, "Let me remind you that we are now looking for contributors for the next edition"

Brock says, "Will Victor Vitanza be joining us?"

MichelleG cheers wildly.

Sue says, "it iwll be called Net : Spirit"

Helen says, "And after the congrats... some detail. The idea of writing for love or money is close to the hearts of many webwriters"

Deena cheers

Marvella says, "I hope Victor can make it."

reiner says, "spirit"

margie says, "Victor says he won"

mezchine offers a chromeic cup of silver sparking wine 2 all n sundry

Cleo says, "indeed!"

bluelagoon arrives.

Sue says, "so hope some people here will contribute - but first let's celebrate this fantastic edition"

Deena says, "Yes, we'd like to ask Christy and the authors What do you love about this medium?""

Helen says, "Christy and I came up with the idea on an airport bus in Texas... weren't you there too Margie? What was the idea behind this topic, Christy?"

margie says, "being here"

Deena takes the sparkling wine and leads never ending toasts and cheers.

margie says, "yes, the bus to San Antonio?"

mezchine swivels her monitor 2 the side, listening.....

Marvella says, "I will say something dopey, like I love the luminosity of pixels and the ever changing weirdups that inspire me to think about depth, tech and sex."

margie says, "the train to San Antonio"

margie says, "the plane to San Antonio"

Deena says, "on the way to the HT00 conference?""

Cleo says, "the vast range of the audiance, the new capabilities for the creator, ..."

margie says, "yes"

Helen says, "depth, tech and ... sex?"

Deena says, "What new capabilities intrigue you, Cleo?"

Loki93c says, "the siren lure of the mo0dem's song"

Marvella says, "I like the ideas that come from the medium, some of which I mentioned in the intoduction to this issue."

mezchine libi][torpe][does the point, a general creative ][s][urging, marvella?

Marvella says, "yes"

Deena says, "How do you work with the medium to spark these ideas?"

MichelleG says, "for me, this medium is seductive because it so stridently challenges the constraints under which we've come to imagine what writing might be."

Helen says, "yes, Loki, for some of us that music the modem plays is like a magical interlude leading to wonderful things...."

Brock says, "Ideas, but at a cost. Can the technology be a hinderance as well as a faciliator? Think of cramped fingers, and cyber addiction?"

margie says, "and a whole set of new constraints that are always a different kind of challenge"

Marvella says, "yes, Michelle. Agree. Its also addictive. I find once I start its hard to stop."

Cleo says, "Having been an 'old scool' [static] artist and writer for about 30 years, it's the freedom of expression via movement and sound chiefly - the extension of the voices [s]"

Marvella says, "I think Margie and I would agree"

Deena says, "Michelle, what are some of those challenges?"

margie says, "having been a print writer for about 30 years--it's the color and sound"

Loki93c says, "i like the idea its a new frontier, with lots to exlore & chart"

MichelleG says, "I agree with Cleo -- the ability to write so freely with images and sound (film is sooo expensive) is a key seduction."

joelweishaus says, "For me, as a writer, it cuts down on the paperwork, sort of, and stamps""

reiner says, "it is the new in the old"

Mazzy says, "Do others think that obsession with a work in progress is a common feature of the work, a sort of overwhelm?"

Deena says, "Brock, yet every media has its techological hindrances...paper, painting, sculpting..."

mezchine trawls bac in2 her past, a present snipp][ed][net of text lust, a drawn out cawlling 2 a medium devoid of gr][andiose][eed and replication...

margie says, "you also can say things with hypermedia that you cannot, simply cannot, say in linear print--suggestions, innuendoes, multiplicties. that is sexy"

Marvella says, "yes, Mazzy, I do"

Loki93c says, "yes Mazzy"

Deena says, "Yes, I think an unfinished hypertext or new media work takes over your life---there are so many complications!"

Mazzy smiles at all the over-focused obsessed people in the room then

Brock says, "granted, but in this case, the hinderances of painting don't destroy many marriages."

Deena says, "How do people handle these obsessions?"

margie says, "oh, I don't know, I was just as obsessed with the ongoingness of print writing--it just wasn't so much fun."

Deena passes around more fun and laughter

Marvella says, "Therein lies some of the physical danger. You dont realize you're holding your wrists in the same position for hours."

Saada says, "What I like about the media is how easy it is to change one's mind. "

MichelleG [to Deena]: "yes, and each of those complications is a juicy knot to be engaged.

Mazzy says, "Margie, where do you think the 'extra fun' comes from in screen or net work?"

Deena says, "right. We need to be ergonomically reminded..."

mezchine presses a probefingah 2 the screen...

Deena says, "and corrected"

Saada says, "I also like the ability to experiment with colour "

margie says, "obsession with writing and painting surely has destroyed many marriages, you just don't hear about it because the obsessed one is the famous one"

Helen says, "I think any creative work can take over your life, writing a novel can be just as engrossing as a webwork.... but I sometimes think there is more work in a web piece"

Marvella says, "funny, Margie!"

Deena says, "How does writing a web piece compare to writing a print piece or doing physical artwork?"

Marvella says, "Yes, often its the tech that becomes difficult and engrossing."

Cleo says, "too many - i've been feeling a bit overwhelmed lately - wondering the what the cost of the intrigue with the appartatus might actually be to the nature of the creative impetus itself. that is, are there too many distractions [bells & whistles] deterring from craft?"

Deena says, "For those of you who have done both, which is more difficult? more fun? why?"

Marvella says, "Guess that is one of the differences, Helen,"

Loki93c says, "its Alive, hammered text isn't."

margie says, "one thing about digital work is that you can trust the chaos more. yo work on what you can do that day, maybe graphic, maybe solve a coding problem, maybe write text"

mezchine says, "deena, the m.mersity is the key changepoint, the time it takes 2 re][mote][search, 2 key the l.ement][aries][ 2 gether, and then create. "

Marvella says, "Yes, Cleo, I think that often happens. Sometimes text suffers."

Mazzy says, "I think one of the difficulties of writing online is that often one is learning the technology, the vocabulary at the same time as creating"

Deena says, "Cleo, that is a great point. What do you guys think? are the explorations into what we can do detracting from producing great work?"

MichelleG says, "One of my concernse is not ao much the destruction of relationships (the gambit against gaming has critiqued that) but the destruction of our bodies. Nearly all of my colleagues suffer from their work -- and they are fairly young. How will we hold up?"

Saada says, "Good point Mazzy"

oga arrives from Courtyard

Marvella says, "Maybe well spend the second half of our web lives polishing the former work. Not too exciting."

Brock says, "Teledildonics? We the physical technology catch up?"

margie says, "I can't work at the computer for more than about 5 hours at a stretch, and stretch is the key word--"

joelweishaus says, "Learning technique has always been a part of a work of art. You don;t just paint.""

Deena says, "What steps can we take to make sure we hold up? I am taking weight training and trying to keep in shape, looking at ergonomic issues, but it is hard when you get lost in the intricacies of the work...what are others doing?"

Brock says, "Will we all use voice commands, the Dragon software etc?"

Marvella says, "Yes, good point Michelle. Re: the physical injuries."

mezchine says, "i think claire is right on topic here, in that the temptation 4 creators 2 use the tools 2 n.voke f.fects that they think constitutes content is a real problem 4 the genre..."

reiner says, "in each media the material has its resistance"

Deena says, "Brock, whatarre teledildonics?"

Brock says, "move beyond typing into another new frontier of keyboards in your head?"

Cleo says, "i wonder, though, if that may just be temporary. that is, it's early - maybe as the media/um becomes more standard the issues of tech will not hold such a strong center"

Deena says, "Right. we learn to paint by painting, and learn this medium by creating in it...but are we using tools in exchange for content?"

margie says, "not myhead, please"

Marvella says, "Say more, Reiner about resistance"

Helen says, "well, yes really!"

Brock says, "Teledildonics refers to the body suit which is hardwired into software, If I type: Touch your shoulder, you feel it."

Loki93c says, "neuroverse"

mezchine says, "or claire, will remain @ the centre *shudder*..."

talanM arrives.

Mazzy says, "Cleo but don't you think the pace of change is such that the media will always be shifting?"

reiner says, "you are too fast ;)"

mezchine says, "heya talan:)"

margie says, "hey talaln"

joelweishaus says, "The paint itself is content, isn't it?""

Sue says, "hi Talan!"

Marvella says, "Hi, Talan!"

Loki93c says, "painting by numbers=#0000FF"

joelweishaus says, "Hey Talan""

Deena says, "Hi Talan, we are talking about the pace of technology and more with the authors and editor of frAme"

Marvella says, "Good way of expressing it, Oki93c"

reiner says, "the material on the net is not only the tech"

Marvella says, "Yes"

Deena says, "Why are you working in new media? What rewards do you get? "

Cleo says, "yes joel, but once one has learned a craft/media, that's pretty much it - this is ever changing - you only scrape the surface and all the sudden there's new tech. to learn - it never stops."

MichelleG [to joelweishaus]: "yes, this electronic medium is great for reintroducing the notion that form is content. It's so blatant (yet, my students resist ...)

Mazzy says, "But the technology forms a part of the vocabulary, or at least the ability to say something in a given way"

Loki93c says, "i get peace & quiet"

Cleo says, "hello talan - welcome"

Marvella says, "Right, Cleo, and I wont mention Netscape6"

joelweishaus says, "Do you want it to stop?""

margie says, "I agree about the pace of technology."

Deena says, "We don't have the years with the tool, tools seem to be around for months... how do we keep up?"

mezchine draw][l][s on a ][circuit][ board, solderin polymer brands N key][point][s

Deena says, "Listens to Christy/Marvella on Netscape 6 issues"

Saada says, "*I think that is part of the fun for dilettantes like me Cleo"

Brock says, "The same feeling of accomplishment at finishing the last brush stroke of a painting is the feeling I get when I am done the last line of code in software. Is that why you are working in the new media?"

Deena says, "What rewards do we get from the fast pace of technology and changing tools?"

Marvella says, "How can we learn new stuff if the browser begins to go backward?"

joelweishaus says, "You know, too, this the technical challange of media art is growing new neurons, changing the human brain.""

Cleo says, "although i love it immensely, I question that - what is being suffered by content"

oga says, "and also the reading of new media alters the way we read old media"

margie says, "the personalization of complexity, exactly, Joel"

Deena starts exercising her brain more.

mezchine a code, dripping with a sy][i][n.aptic-tocking

Mazzy says, "Deena, I think for me the main rewards of working on line have been the collaborative connections I've made"

Marvella says, "This is a fast crowd, Deena"

Deena hands out complexity makers with lots of lovely painting colors

oga says, "one starts to feel a desire to read a book like it's a painting, like a hummument"

Sue says, "Oga, yes, very true!"

joelweishaus says, "Think of your studio as an exercise room.""

Deena says, "Oga, like a hummument?"

oga says, "has anyone seen jeff noon's cobralingus?"

oga says, "a human document"

margie says, "the connections and friends are great - but even if no one ever said hi, I would still want to do it....something about the construction--"

Sue says, "it is from a book by the artist Tom Phillips"

margie says, "like a box of ten thoughsand crayons"

Deena says, "Mazzy, I think connections and collaborations have been wondrous additions in my life as well..."

oga says, "that book by whassis name, tom phillips, yes, Sue"

Sue says, "he reworked old books into other forms - hard to explain here"

Deena says, "Margie, what rewards do you get from the construction?"

Mazzy says, "Margie, but to some extent are you not in collaboration with the tools even if not with other writers?"

Sue says, "you need to see a copy to appreciate it"

mezchine grasps a Complexity Maker [inc] by the handle and shakes it, listening 2 the b][e][u][ys][zz inside.

Deena says, "Oga, do you have a URL for JEff Noon?"

oga says, "Cobralingus really epitomizes the shift that net.art and remix technology is having on literatures"

oga says, "sure"

oga says, "let me find it Deena"

Brock says, "so, are we--the busy bees of cyberspace going to invent the new way of moving beyond the physical limitations of the net experience? It's got to come from us."

Nicki says, "hi, one thing for me is that I'm starting to think more visually, into and beyond words, much more now."

margie says, "oh, I love the other writers, and this is a great joy"

oga says, "bb"

Helen says, "deena, you're one of the few "professional" hypertext writers who isn't also an academic. do you feel all the work you put in to your pieces is worthwhile?"

Deena says, "Brock, how are we inventing that new way of moving?"

margie says, "but the idea of constrcuting something that has never been made before, never even thought of, just blows me away"

Brock says, "well, software like Dragon Naturally Speaking, so I can speak not kill my joints typing..."

Deena says, "Helen, I love the community. It is such a vibrant, fast moving world. I admit I get whirled by a lot, but it is fun,..."

Cleo says, "for me all the details are a great seduction - i used to be a metalsmith and bookmaker, and i love learning the details/how things work/ what the media/um can do - the drug here is constantly feeding me with new possibilities, details, combinations ..."

oga says, "here it is deena, http://www.codexbooks.co.uk/cobraindex.html"

Deena says, "Margie, yes. I think we are so lucky we can do new things. When I was writing print, I felt discouraged, as I could never see anything NEW to do or say..."

oga says, "absolutely Cleo"

Brock says, "but there is so many more tech advancements that need to be made. The internet which SMELLS is out there now--but what about the net that's 3-d? Think Johnny Nmenonic"

margie says, "yes, Deena"

Deena shares a URL...

http://www.codexbooks.co.uk/cobraindex.html

mezchine says, "brock, haven't we already n.itiated this process? as in moving 'beyond" the geosensory real in2 an arean where collaboration is actually redefining wot we term as 'real"?"

oga says, "that is why I like the interbreeding of technolgies, the mix between flesh and reality"

joelweishaus says, "I like the quick replies from editors.""

Helen says, "so it is being at the forefront of discovery and experiment that drives us..."

Deena says, "THanks Oga... I think the key word here is NEW"

oga says, "cobralingus is one of my books of this year"

margie says, "even now I think when I read linear ficiton that I wouldn't really be able to do what I wanted, say something in a new way."

Deena says, "Being at the forefront..."

Mazzy hangs on for grim death in case she disconnects too

oga says, "it's beyond a linear fiction, Noon takes quotes and then slips them through a filter, engines of corruption, decay and enhancing narratives that seem to rise out of disconnected detail"

margie says, "que pasa"

Brock says, "true, but there is still the computer mediating the experience. There will come a day when the big grey box of my CPU isnt needed...I dont know in what form, but for now we have grey boxes talking to grey boxes, and people are seccondary in the process . My computer doesnt KNOW me, it only knows I and O--Not very interactive."

Deena shares a URL...frAme 5

MichelleG says, "I wonder what will happen as the web becomes more and more like television. Do folks here consider that? I think of the changes we've seen since the web became commercialized. Those early halcyon days gone by still call to me ..."

Deena says, "You can share URLs by typing @URL http://www. whatever"

margie says, "good point Michelle--the golden days!"

Cleo says, "argh, it's the word 'new' that distresses me so here - as if that constituted validity in itself. Quality is still a valid issue i believe, that has nothing to do with 'new,' but with depth/content"

Helen says, "michelle, i rather dread the TV-web we'll be in the hands of yet more technologies and their experts"

Brock says, "only we can change that."

oga says, "Just someone who likes this kind of stuff, sue"

simon mills arrives.

margie says, "hi simon"

Sue says, "hey simon!"

reiner says, "the fascination of the net is not the tech. the tech are only the clothes..."

Deena says, "wait, we have been through several golden days, the golden days of hypertext with Coover, the golden free days of the web... are we really missing stuff now with the web as ebusiness?"

mezchinic static shifts thru a hyperethereality, a swapping of time.ic constraints 2 morph the golden with the chromeian...

Mazzy says, "But isn't the difference with the web that it will still be possible to gain access and present material at low cost...it may need to fight for an audience but it can at least get there"

Deena says, "Reiner, could you say more about that? What is under the clothes of technology?"

margie says, "not if the servers have your links last on the list. think AOL for controlled access"

oga says, "sue, I don't know how to page you back"

Deena says, "Mazzy, good point. We can still reach a potential audience of millions for$30 a month..."

Loki93c says, "beneath techKnowledgy's clothes r images in my head"

Deena says, "To page someone, type page NAME " message"

reiner says, "ideally under the clothes is thinking"

mezchinic eye.mages loki, tracking a remote m.mage 2 its h.e][nd][ad.

Deena peeks under the techies shiny clothes to see the thoughts and images that can finally be expressed.

margie says, "undeer the clothes is flesh and bone and sinew and organ"

Brock says, "is hypertext a language which creates an exclusive culture?"

Mazzy says, "but you still need the tech, just as a painter will still need the skills of their medium"

Helen says, "trAce will face ebusiness to get the support tto allow all these artists to continue to explore..."

Loki93c says, "the images r a respone to thinking, one blots out the other"

Cleo i love you reiner ...

reiner says, "(i live in Wiesbaden - nearby Frankfurt)"

margie says, "Brock, I don't think hypertext is an exclusive culture, but it is self-selelcting"

Deena says, "So the rewards we are seeing are being at the forefront, being able to do new things, seeing what the media can do, collaborating... what did I miss?"

Brock says, "The same way painters stick with other painters?"

Deena says, "Margie, how is ht self selecting?"

MichelleG says, "one of the things that has come with commercialization (and the coming convergence of television with the web?) is the remarginilazation of amateur efforts. In part e-mediums are seductive because they're accessible. *I* can do this. *I* can't make a film."

Marvella says, "under the clothes is code"

Helen says, "yes exactly michelle"

mezchinic says, "brocck, its a trickle down tendril affecting medium, s.pecially now the commerical aspect is thought bi many 2 b the de][a][fining criteria..."

Deena says, "Right HElen, ELOis working with ebusiness too to help promote elit and enw media..."

Deena tries to crack the code under the clothes

margie says, "yes, Michelle--the more difficult the browsers, the more one needs a whole crew of people just to debug a page"

Loki93c says, "the neurons in our headz run on on/off, same as binary = 1/0"

Marvella says, "I have ones and zeros as bra and panties"

Brock says, "accessibility creating the global net village? A kid in Zambia can make a webpage, an elderly person in Canada can make a webapge?"

Deena says, "Michelle, how do you see the remarginalization here? is it in the "professional" look and feel? or the access?"

oga says, "yes, and this means that amateur efforts are not marginalized at all"

reiner says, "under the clothes is code - but is code (good for) ?"

mezchinic says, "really marvella? :)"

Deena looks down at her clothes and remakes them in binary code

oga says, "it is our selection of the dross, that remarginalizes technology and production"

Mazzy says, "People born in the century before last can make a webpage, right Saada?"

Loki93c says, "dna=code java=code result=art"

Deena says, "Oga, our selection of the dross? could you elaborate?"

simon_mills says, "a kid in Zambia can make a webpage but can he afford sql server space?"

Marvella laughs, really1

Brock laughs

oga says, "Deena, I mean all these millions of webpages, all these people are producing net.art in their own way."

mezchinic says, ":)"

reiner says, "art is not touchable (no flesh)"

Brock says, "Actually, speaking of that, aren't we making the 3rd world our techno slaves?"

Marvella hugs Simon

MichelleG says, "I feel it's a bit of both. But I'm mainly thinking of the increasing cost of software. Now, I need Dreamweaver, Photoshop, Flash, etc."

Deena says, "Do we need SQL space? I am thinking about the lightweight contest in boston in April, where art should be less athan 100k..."

Deena says, "Don't have the URL on me..."

Brock says, "Sending them 286's and old software keeps them all in the techo dark ages"

oga says, "their talent increases to the extent where people such as these on this chat take notice"

Deena says, "Sorry Michelle, I interrupted. Could you repeat..."

Saada says, "Yes but they don't get very long to look at it "

joelweishaus says, "Do you think this will pass, will people lose interest in web pages, etc.?""

Marvella says, "Send them Netscape 6"

Saada says, "Mazzy"

Mazzy says, "Brock, but isn't it better to have something than to be excluded totally"

Helen says, "http://www.liteshow.org"

Brock jokes about netscape 6 too

mezchinic says, "michelle, u don't *need* them, that's falling in2 the commericalist trap of assuming the latest gadgets acn allow u 2 create the latest *n.sert lingo here*....."

simon_mills says, "I was just using sql server as an example of how expensive and sophisticated things are getting"

Brock says, "hmm. Good counter thought, Mazzy"

oga says, "I think that bandwidth will chnge the decline in interest on the web"

Deena says, "Thanks Helen"

Helen says, "Well Kids on the Net is trying to expand provision of webspace to kids in Zambia and elsewhere in Africa"

simon_mills says, "and soon just as you can't make a film you might not be able to afford to make "cutting edge" web sites"

reiner says, "advertising spots are short nevertheless effective"

MichelleG says, "My concern is two-fold. Who can afford the new-fangled software (Dreamweaver, Photoshop, Flash, etc.) and who can afford the health care needed to continue producing?"

margie says, "you can't make cutting edge websites any more--the technology is getting too difficult--but you can make classic ones"

Marvella says, "good point, Helen! Didnt know you were doing that."

joelweishaus says, "I mean, what if this all turns out to be a fad? We have such an intimate view right now.""

Deena says, "Good point simon. But in the film industry, isn't it all or nothing? Either a large budget or no film at all? I think there is a much broader scale of economy and possiblity in the web."

Brock says, "like making smokers pay taxes to pay for healthcare? A webspinners tax?"

mezchinic x.tracts a brown-lined document from the archive, flipping thru the crumble-kode, and dreams of linked realities.

_m [to simon_mills]: how about digital media, then? AtomFIlms has a section for those budding filmmakers... not with any mm film, but with digital cameras and such... it isn't *as* restrictive/impossible as it once was...

Marvella says, "a fad?"

Nicki says, "but if you don't know about dreamweaver, flash etc. you feel as though you're lagging behind - how to keep up, or is it all to create a state of anxiety?"

Deena wards off the revenewers with some moonshine

Marvella says, "Maybe maginalized like video artist but not a fad"

joelweishaus says, "Yes, something else sexier comes along.""

Deena says, "Yes, I feel anxious because I don't do databases or the latest animation...but maybe that is where the collaboration comes in..."

Mazzy says, "Nicki, I agree, I just don't want to go there, but I still feel there might just be a way to say something without those tools"

Helen says, "I agree mazzy"

Saada says, "A bit more like TV than film at times- and most TV has very limited budget and cheap technology"

margie says, "well it will always be the case that something new will come. but how many folks get to be on board of even one new thing?"

simon_mills says, "fair point _m, there will always be resources to help out some people"

reiner says, "technologies have made it more easy to produce (and less expensive) --- it becomes more a quaetion of time (= money)"

Mazzy stays onboard an old Thing

Brock says, "but who is leading the "vcersion 2.1, version 3.7, version 9.9 cat and mouse game? Who says you have to have all the latest? Is it a commercial ploy?"

mezchinic says, "nicki if yr strength of creation lies outside the fad-gagde.try, the latest software, then u'll b right...no matter wot tools u use..."

Marvella says, "Yes, Margie, this is the revolution now."

Cleo says, "i don't thinking being on the 'cutting edge' is important concerning art - if it's good it's good, it musn't be new to be so"

Marvella says, "But will it go the way of the stockmarket? Down."

Deena says, "Yes, I think we should use the tools that let us express our meaning, and rejoice that we have them..."

oga has disconnected.

The housekeeper arrives to remove oga.

margie says, "the new web versions are being introduced by companies like AOL and Netscape"

Deena says, "Christy, how can we help the revolution go up?"

mezchinic says, "snap claire;)"

margie says, "they want to sell stuff with the browsers, so you are getting"

joelweishaus says, "When I said a fad--another way to say it, one big war, and...""

Deena says, "How can we as a new media community help increase the rewards for digital labour?"

margie says, "these huge, juggernaut marketing machines instead of browsers--it is discouraging"

Marvella says, "I worry that if all these tech companies go bankrupt it will slow all our artistic progress down"

MichelleG says, "I realize I'm using borrowed equipment today, but my shoulders already ache. Is anyone else hurting?"

reiner says, "have we to sell anything;) ?"

Deena says, "Right. Our media is very tenuous, you must have a modem, electricity, and a computer"

Cleo says, "the capitalists - capital is behind this you know, whether we like it or not. why do you think the nature of software developement often leaves artist's in the dust? they don't care about us: we are not $ makers."

Saada says, "I wonder when people are worrying about not being on the cutting edge whether their real worry is that other people can do what they do -"

Brock says, "Marvella: If the marketing co's go out of business it will be like the utopia of before!"

Marvella says, "Yes, Michelle, my hands are ice and my shoulder (rt) aches."

Deena says, "Michelle, me too. I am at Kinkos again, this time as all Denver's ISP connections are out at the source except satellite.."

Marvella says, "It wont be just marketing"

Loki93c says, "i don't care if i'm cutting edge or lost in the distance. i enjoy myself either way, the journey being everything & nothing."

oga arrives from Courtyard

joelweishaus says, "Deena, why?""

Sue says, "have you expereinced the collapse of the dotcoms inthe usa too?"

Deena says, "you guys are wonderful to share insights and chat like this despite the pain. "

margie says, "wow, such doom and gloom! If we like this so much, and a the lastest stats say that people would"

Brock says, "The ISP crash is exactly what I was talking about earlier. We have to develop a *new* or *better* way. "

MichelleG [to Deena]: "I think we need to concentrate some effort on valuing digital labor. The medium issues forth from a terrible history (ask those workers in the Philippines.

Deena says, "Yep. The collabpse of the dotcomes have been really fun out here."

Sue says, "they talk about thgis all the time in england - last year was the big boom"

Marvella says, "have we ever, Sue! harrowing"

margie says, "rather give up their tv's than their browsing ... someone has to be able to make a profit"

Saada says, "Is an artist someone who produces something beautiful or merely someone who produces something unique"

Sue says, "but we have been here all the time!!"

Nicki says, "yes, I'd like to rely on my own creative tools, but can't help wondering what browser and plug-ins people are using. Once I may have caught up other people may have moved on and want more. Is one question who we're creating for? Do we need to know, to be accessible?"

Deena says, "Yes. How do we value that labor, Michelle?"

oga says, "not for the people who work for them"

Sue says, "dot coms come and go, but we'rew still here"

Marvella says, "I like new, Saada, but new can be beautiful"

Deena says, "Right, Sue, how do we get people to see and enter the community, and not conflate us with the dotcoms?"

mezchinic holds up a flatbed screen splashed with the jumbled green text of: "i
w i l l n o t b e f i s c a l l y d e f i n e d "

reiner says, "'cutting edge' reminds me at the flat earth modell - do not fall down - "

Sue says, "saada - 'merely' ?"

joelweishaus says, "Saada, isn't beauty uniqueness?""

Marvella says, "You should hold up a sign!"

Deena says, "Good question Nikki, why are we creating the art? who is it for?"

margie says, "yay mez"

Deena holds up a BIG sign: _________________________________

| are we creating accessible art?        |

|_________________________________|

Loki93c says, "good point Deena"

Marvella says, "Uniqueness doesnt guarantee anything. Birth defects can be unique."

Deena says, "Mez, to hold up a sign, type bb and your message"

Brock says, "not accesible unless you PAY. I pay $30 for a month."

reiner says, "surely - log in ;)"

Deena says, "Right, how do we get this to be a sustainable art form?"

Sue says, "ok, here is a question re money"

joelweishaus says, "Then what is beauty?""

Mazzy says, "I think the key to rewarding digital labour is to look at the audience and find a model for an economy where a reader or viewer can find and pay for what they enjoy"

Sue says, "would people pay to see frAme?"

Marvella says, "But, again, I do like making things new, breaking taboos, new ground, experimenting, etc."

Brock says, "I would."

margie says, "the frAme issue, tho, is all non-fiction. I think that frAme is doing something very interesting by having Christy curate an issue like this--not fiction or poetry"

Deena says, "And if people will pay, how do we make it convenient for them to pay?"

Helen says, "audience development is very important: I'm all for audience development... give them access, give them a taster of what's out there apart from shopping -- of course, then they want to write it too!"

Sue says, "becauwse if people pay, then the artists can get paid"

margie says, "but thoughtful examination"

Sue says, "but if people wont pay - then - who pays the artists?"

Loki93c says, "audiences...............hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhm"

Deena says, "we will chat March 18 about business models for the new media art and lit, so these are great questions to get us started in that direction"

Nicki says, "don't artists do it for 'love'? Is that where I'm going wrong?"

Marvella says, "The government of England? :-)"

joelweishaus says, "Do artists get paid? I must have missed something.""

talanM has disconnected.

The housekeeper arrives to remove talanM.

Brock says, "love dont feed ya"

Mazzy says, "Margie, sorry I'm late, but my contribution is largely fiction not non-fiction"

margie says, "artists and writers haven't been paid all that much (except for a few) in all of history--no reason to change things"

oga says, "the problem is that there is nothing outside the web to redirect consumers to the artists"

MichelleG [to Deena]: "I can only think we start where we are. How many times do I go to meetings and here university adminstitrators talk about getting new media students to *volunteer* their talents, time, and bodies to working on the schools website? (too many) We don't value this labor because it appears to be fun (and, well, it is, isn't it) and if it's fun it can't also be labor (in our ideological twist -- say thanx to the Puritans). Now I'm ranting!

mezchinic says, "deena my methods of creating r flexible, i try 2 maintain my output 2 n.clude work that is at its most basic simple text on a screen 2 more n.volved crafting......if we manage 2 n.corporate l.ements that cover the spectrum of audience members [within/out reason] then that's good..."

oga says, "For example napster actually increases CD sales"

Deena says, "Well, yes. but we have to pay for our connections, our access, our computers.... we have to pay at least $30 a month to keep our work accessible..."

Loki93c says, "we got 'paid' only after holding the promoter outta a window......lol"

oga says, "but often artists don't have any external media that seeing online art for free encourages customers to purchase their own work"

Symbolic_Guest says, "I think the ruling against Napster was an own goal for the record industry"

margie says, "make a CD??"

Deena says, "good rant Michelle. How do we get people to value the labor involved in our digital love?"

oga says, "I always want to buy something from people, but can't because I can only access it on the web"

MichelleG says, "i'm curious. Are many of the net.artists here paying the rent with a digital day job?"

Symbolic_Guest says, "they mis-read how to use the tech to benefit themselves"

Deena looks for windows to hold promoter out of and settles for this windows 98 computer...

mezchinic says, "i've realised that unless ure comfortable with selling yr work in terms of compromise along the design axis, then u won't make a great deal of mooolah in this genre"

margie says, "not a chance Michelle--it's outgo all the way, whatever you do."

Deena says, "I am paying rent with a quasi web designer job, but it is not at all the same..."

joelweishaus says, "We need to establish a better granting system. Get Clinton to raise money for it.""

Deena says, "Mez, what do you mean by compromises..."

Brock says, "Gerge Dub-ya"

margie says, "right brock. maybe we can design war sites"

Deena says, "right, I think the administration may make getting grants more interesting..."

Brock says, "sure!!! get into Do D jobs! design "smak saddam" website"

Helen says, "Brock, thanks! I've only just realised what Dub-ya means!!!!!"

Marvella says, "yes, we are at it again. At war."

mezchinic says, "deena i mean making yr work accesible 2 the point of altering yr stylistic parameters..."

Mazzy says, "From my own point of view, my offline work is not in a particularly lucrative vein and I don't see online prospects as being much more pessemistic, frankly"

Brock says, "and I m the Canadian"

Deena says, "HOw do we increase people's awareness..."

margie says, "yes, and interactive maps, guns and rah rah"

Deena says, "Mazzy, so you see the online as being more optimistic for your work?"

oga says, "mez, do you mean access as access on the web, or off the web?"

Mazzy says, "I see the same problems..."

oga says, "who do you want to access your work, and how?"

Mazzy says, "but some advantage that it is easier for someone to search and find my work if the enjoy it..."

mezchinic says, "..and i think this is a tragedy, dumbing down yr work until it becomes acceptable 2 a more mainstreamic audience...that's y i'll prolly be dirt poor 4eva:)"

oga says, "in what ways do we limit access to our work?"

Deena holds up a BIG sign: _____________________________________________

|

| How do we get people to our works, get them |

| to pay to view our works, and then get the       |

| monetary rewards of digital labour?      |

|_____________________________________________|

Marvella says, "How do you see yourself in 3 years?"

Brock says, "access costs money. public pc terminals were tried, and failed. At & T charges $2 per login."

Mazzy says, "there MIGHT in the future be reward in that under some model...if I wanted rewards....I'd get a paper round, not write"

mezchinic says, "oga i mean both"

Helen says, "one of the other roles a new media writer must take on is marketing and publicity: you have to put yourself out there and send out those emails...."

Marvella says, "Experimental work has never been a lucrative path."

Brock says, "good point Helen"

Deena calculates the monetary rewards, compares with a paper route, and envies the paper boy...

Mazzy says, "Mez, to a certain extent tho, if I wish to be read, it is by a real flesh & blood reader and if the reader for my work does not exist, I must write for no one or change it, no?"

margie says, "Helen, you are right about the pubicity--but that is another way of spending money!"

oga says, "so, you mean dealing to the common denominator, or slowly increasing sense to work someone into the deeper complexity, multiplexity"

mezchinic says, "marvella, n.deed. and it doesn't help when all those trad canon paths come back in2 play, either."

Brock says, "artists cannot just be artists. Marketer, Public relations and human resources experts too."

Cleo says, "I don't think, as Joel said, there really are, as there never have been, monetary rewards for artists and writers - except the rare, blessed few ..."

Marvella says, "Yeah, mez."

Deena says, "Right. I think we need to concentrate on the roles of marketer, public relations. CAn we as a community help get the word out?"

Brock says, "so, barter system then? "

oga says, "and that rare, blessed few are either these whose work is so impenetrable, but yet enjoyable, to the extent that it is simply experienced, yet not understood"

mezchinic says, "mazzy if u think so, but how do u *know* that ppl rn't reading it? with an open source model for distribution, u have no regular comodified features/benchmarks on which 2 rely..."

margie says, "I think of actors. Around here, the statistics show that the average member of SAG makes about $20,000 a year. Better than us, but not by much"

MichelleG says, "This question on how to make money on *content* as they call it is hot. Some say the web won't work. You've got to move to a subscription based model -- meaning more email art."

oga says, "and the other, most successful is these who subvert and use the mainstream paradigms to critique reality"

Nicki says, "Mazzy, will the flesh and blood reader have more chance of getting in touch with you through reading your on-line work? it's that interactivity that seems the key to some rewards - not monetary, necessarily."

mezchinic says, "oga, yr spot on"

Deena says, "The average salary of a paper writer is $5,000 or so... "

Mazzy says, "Nicki I think that's a good point..."

_m [to MichelleG]: what do you think of Automatic Media and their recent stuff?

Cleo says, "if you're doing it for $, i don't think you're really an artist, or that is not your aim anyway - it's entertainment or design. confuse the intent and i think content will suffer greatly\"

Mazzy says, "do others get reader response from those who use their sites?"

joelweishaus says, "There are , I have many friends, who hate computers, or fear them, so they don't see my work, for which I'm sorry.""

Deena says, "_m, do you have a URL for Automatic Media?"

Loki93c says, "i have 2 depart. night folks."

mezchinic says, "cleo, yr very very correct here:)"

Deena says, "Thanks for coming Loki :)"

Mazzy waves to Loki

Brock says, "good night Loki"

_m [to Deena]: it's not so much Auto media's site, but their investing in Suck and Feed and the recent launch of Plastic.com...

margie says, "Cleo--I hear you, having said it a couple of times. The issue of money is not the goal of the artist, but it is an issue with Michelle's "digital labor""

Saada says, "The web offers a chance to choose your path - you can go e-commerce and have admin paying you a small percentage in return for doing the selling or you can self-publish and do your own blurbing. "

Sue says, "bye loki and thanks for your piece"

Mazzy says, "Cleo, surely it is possible to write with integrity and be commercially successful?"

mezchinic says, "mazzy, i've been getting fanmail for years, sometimes it very strange and other times lurvely..."

Marvella Waves bye, bye

Mazzy says, "at least in theory!"

Nicki says, "my dad now reads some of my writing that he wouldn't have done any other way."

Sue says, "everyone, i'd like to introduce Nicki Hastie - you may not know her - she is doing some fantastic work with trAce"

Deena says, "yes, the neat thing about this media is that people can write to you directly...and you can interact with readers."

Marvella Yeah, more fanmail on the web than in print.

Mazzy says, "Mez in which case I suspect that the accessibility is a big advantage over being print-published in an obscure journal, anyone can read and contact you"

margie says, "nice tameetcha, Nickie"

Deena says, "I think if we elevate digital labor, we can elevate the digital artists... "

Sue says, "you'lkl find Nicki on our front page!"

Marvella greets Nicki!

Nicki says, "Sue, thank you for that. Hello everyone."

Brock says, "if you are listed in the search engines, and that is a gatekeeper system we need to destroy"

Deena greets Nicki

Helen says, "unfortunately nowadays accessibility on the web brings in more spam than fanmail :("

mezchinic says, "mazzy 4 sure, that's y i choose open source distribution...i won't make any money off it though:)"

Sue smiles at Nicki.

Mazzy says, "true, Mez"

reiner says, "to Nicki - my dad hangs my cds on the wall - is more pleased about a book (i am in) but not to read - to show around ;)"

Deena makes spam sandwiches for all

Sue says, "reiner i like that!"

MichelleG says mmmm, spam...

Cleo says, "of course it is, but if monetary success is the primary issue, not the art itself - it's a matter of priorities and meaning ..."

Deena says, "My dad got a computer to read my stuff... that was neat..."

Marvella sings a new song, My Day Hangs my CDs on the Wall1 Country western number

Deena says, "how do we increase other nonmonetary rewards, like collaboration, experimentation?"

reiner says, "sorry have to leave now - good night - good morning mezzie - good afternoon america - ciao - tschuess ............"

joelweishaus says, "Deena, I find e-mail more intimate than regular mail, because of its speed.""

Nicki says, "it's nice to be asked eagerly by a parent if you've done anything new to your website lately"

Sue says, "bye reiner!"

Marvella says, "Bye, Reiner!"

Marvella says, "Love you"

Brock says, "good that u have suuport. i find so many of the baby boomers equate net= evil.Iguessitsthewholeforeign=strange= bad thing."

margie says, "bye reiner"

mezchinic says, "cya reiner:)"

MichelleG waves goodbye to reiner.

Brock says, "maybe thats it!!!!!!!!!!!"

Deena says, "I think that will change as generations grow..."

MichelleG says, "My parents have no idea what I do -- and I'm an academic working in this field."

Deena says, "and we get more comfortable witht he web.."

Brock says, "we;ll get the aby boomers to buy subscriptions to your art!!"

Brock says, "thats an untapped target market"

Sue says, "we work with a lot of older people wholove the web - ask Saada!"

mezchinic says, "deena, with the collapse and active undermining of napster, it sets an awkward pre.c.dent 4 any type of alternate model on which 2 establish financial support for artists..."

Deena hands round subscriptions to all and sundry baby boomers

joelweishaus says, "Joel yells after Reiner, "Take care!""

Helen says, "we have to make it fashionable...."

Saada says, "Baby boomers they are young people in their fifties, right?"

mezchinic says, "i mean artists working in a collaborative mode, or x.tended authorship patterns.."

Mazzy says, "Do you think that there is any scope for art or writing as an independent form as added value at commercial sites, a sort of freebie magazine format funded by business?"

Sue laughs at Saada.

Deena says, "Mez, yes, but has the Napster model really collapsed?"

Brock says, "they have time, and money. (-;"

Symbolic_Guest says, "no it hasn't "

Deena says, "Or did it run up against the shoals of copyright and industry?"

Marvella shares a URL...

<http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/frame5/glaros/default.htm>.

Symbolic_Guest says, "napster works from a central database that's what made it vulnerable"

margie says, "Mazzy--the thing about commercial help (something that ELO hoped to garner) "

Brock says, "excellent way of putting it, deena"

mezchinic says, "in a fiscal sense i'd say yes deena, but in an underground sense, no:)"

Marvella says, "I just had to do that."

mezchinic says, "brb"

Symbolic_Guest says, "other software won't be so vulnerable"

margie says, "is that they are now the companies that are hardest hit by the downturn. they aren't"

Deena says, "Maz, I saw Starbucks way of putting up reading and creative writing... can we get more businesses to do that?"

margie says, "freebing anything, or helping, right now"

joelweishaus says, "I found Digital Labor to be an important piece.""

Sue says, "we have this wokring the other way around'"

Deena says, "Symbol, can we develop peer to peer methods that won't be as vulnearble as napster?"

Marvella says, "By the way, when you put up a URL is it independent for each viewer or do you see that I changed from the opening URL?"

Mazzy says, "margie, point taken, the art HAS to bring in readership to be of symbiotic value to the business but the art MUST be independent to not devalue

the work (maybe it's impossible)"

Brock says, "may I suggest that you contact other academics in "Teaching and Learning" in other institutions? Spread the word."

Sue says, "we have been approached by a hugely expensive site because they have no audience and we have lots - they want our people to come over to them"

Sue says, "but - do we take advertising? theres the rub"

oga says, "hmmmm"

Deena says, "I think it is independant for all... I still see the intro screen of digital labor"

Symbolic_Guest says, "I think advertising is fine"

Marvella says, "Oh"

oga says, "I have to get offline now, nice being here, see you all next time"

Loki93c has disconnected.

Saada says, "I hate advertising. "

Sue says, "some people hate ads though"

oga smiles & waves

Sue says, "rthere you go!"

Nicki says, "do more people come because the site isn't seen to be commercial?"

Brock says, "you gotta play the game sometimes, and try not to compromise too many of your values in the processs"

Deena says, "Sue, I think this is a problem art has faced throughout the ages,patronage, advertising, etc..."

Symbolic_Guest says, "I hate advertising but still think it's ok to use it"

Sue says, "if trAce was covered in ads, would it be the same?"

Mazzy says, "If advertising doesn't interfere with editorial then fine, I just ignore that bit of the screen where the banner ad goes"

MichelleG says, "I'm glad Digital Labor has struck some chords. I continue to wrestle with those issues daily."

Mazzy says, "if it gets into the content then no, bad news"

Symbolic_Guest says, "exactly Maz"

oga has disconnected.

The housekeeper arrives to remove oga.

Deena says, "will read this more closely."

Marvella shares a URL...

<http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/frame5/coverley/index.html>.

Sue says, "thanks christy"

Brock says, "beautiful."

Sue says, "i love the colours in this"

Deena Marvels at the complexity in this work

Marvella shares a URL...

<http://www.northpoint.org.uk/tiler/>.

Deena says, "I think we need to stay away from the Amazon model, where advertising becomes the editing content..."

Sue says, "mazzy can you say something about the ideas behind this?"

MichelleG says, "Christy, the work you've collected for frAme5 is simply beautiful."

Mazzy says, "It's a rather recursive thing. It's been built and rebuilt largely out of itself and a wide range of disparate influences. It's my best shot at considering some of the aspects of online writing that interest me. Everything I write which is displayed on a screen is in some senses collaborative, if only between myself and software of the machine."

Mazzy says, "The Blind Tiler's Assistant is a piece in three main parts which took over a year of elapsed time to emerge in its present form. It was originally inspired by a conversation about programming and writing in the Experimental Conference at the trAce WebBoard."

Marvella shares a URL...

<http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/frame5/mez/tubic1.htm>.

Brock says, "cool!!!!!"

Marvella says, "thanks, Michelle"

mezchinic says, "thx christy"

Deena watches the lovely images...

Brock says, "like a person being born..."

Sue says, "Mazzy it is a fascianting piece"

mezchinic says, "strange watching it here, and wonderful 2;0)"

Brock says, "slowly, coming together from disperate images"

Sue says, "and this mez is weird inside this window!"

Cleo says, "michelle, are you glaros? unfortunately, i haven't had a chance to read it yet. it looks very compelling indeed."

mezchinic says, "sure is sue:)"

Marvella says, "Fun, huh?"

Sue says, "love it!"

mezchinic says, "get ready for the quik clik;)"

Deena says, "maz, this is really a piece that *can't* be done outside of this media. Do you thinkt hat the ideas came first, or did many of the ideas emerge as you played with the media?"

joelweishaus says, "I like the horizontal motion.""

Brock says, "An ad for Tide would kill this"

Sue says, "I darent clikc anything after last time"

Brock says, "an ad would kill this. period."

Marvella says, "Is Cleo still here?"

MichelleG [to Cleo]: "yes, I'm Glare-ass (as I've been told)!

Cleo says, "yes"

Brock says, "to find out whos in the moo click the "who" button at the top of the screen"

Cleo says, "lol?"

margie says, "ah, have to go now--much fun being here--thanks to trAce, Sue and Helen, dear Christy and all. Wonderful issue - great work all around!"

Cleo says, "!"

Mazzy says, "Deena, very slowlythe story came first as an analogy with prog & writing, it came back to coding again later"

margie says, "til next time!"

The housekeeper arrives to cart Loki93c off to bed.

mezchinic says, "it was a great x.perience workin on this, compared 2 the heavy textual resonances i use normally in my email perf stuff..."

Deena says, "Thanks for coming Margie. "

Saada says, "I liked that very much,, Michelle but I wouldn't have looked at it if adverts had danced across it"

_m goes home.

Deena says, "I think ads may well be what we need to do to get the access to the works to many more people, and create a stable community."

Brock says, "I'd salavate if i saw the code for this!"

Saada says, "Nevertheless Helen ads have a way of spreading."

mezchinic shares http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/frame5/mez/tubic2.htm"

Brock says, "the piece is faintly reminiscent of echer"

mezchinic says, "oops"

MichelleG says, "The cyberkidz are starting to circle. I'm afraid I need to relinquish this machine."

Marvella says, "I may break your machines if I keep adding all these together! My machine, anyway. Due for a new one."

Everdeen says, "Helen, it seems here and to me that 'name rights' is a reasonable trade-off for funding and not overly intrusive"

Symbolic_Guest says, "@who"

joelweishaus says, "I have trouble saying goodbye, but I must leave.""

MichelleG waves farewell to joel as she too gets booted.

Helen says, "Everdeen, I absolutely agree, and much better than banner ads all over the place"

Deena says, "THanks for coming Joel, this was fun"

Brock says, "do you know when the transcipt will be posted?"

mezchinic says, "cya joel, michelle"

elliott arrives.

Cleo says, "ads and the net are a big problem because they must be on the same page, commercializing and de-valuing the work/ it's integrity by confusing the issue. in mag's ads are on seperate pages - how to address this problem with a tastefuland fair answer?".

Brock says, "bye"

Deena says, "I will get this up this week, if I can get your email, I'll tell you when it is up..."

MichelleG has disconnected.

The housekeeper arrives to remove MichelleG.

Sue says, "i must go too"

Sue says, "thanks Deena and Helen for hosting this"

Deena says, "Good point Cleo. We don't HAVE to put ads on paintings, but here we do..."

Helen says, "And sponsorship is something that has worked for art for a long time, from ballet to Brit art to net art"

Brock says, "deena: rebecca@mergetel.com"

Nicki says, "looks like we're all going. Thanks - it's been a good first visit."

Marvella says, "Loved being here today."

mezchinic says, "cya sue, take care:)"

Brock says, "thanks!"

Deena says, "THanks for coming SUe, it was greast."

Everdeen says, "Cleo, there are of course the separate window pop-up ads....which are tied but not on the same page"

Sue says, "let me remind everyone that the next issue of frAme is looking for contributors"

Saada says, "Thank you all for a most interesting evening"

Marvella shares a URL...

<http://www.cybercide.co.uk/frAme/frame5.htm>.

Brock says, "Thank you for allowing me to be part of your community"

Deena says, "Welcome Nicki... Thanks for coming"

mezchinic says, "bye nicki:0"

Symbolic_Guest says, "cheers sue"

Sue says, "net : spirit - spirituality, mind, magic"

Nicki says, "bye - see you again."

Sue says, "nice to meet you all"

Helen says, "Bye Nicki"

Mazzy says, "I'm sorry that Loki has gone because..."

Sue says, "and i'll see quite a few of you at DAC!"

Deena hands round parting glasses and thinks we covered a lot of ground

Deena says, "Yes, please come to DAC!"

Mazzy says, "his piece seemed very evocative of the info overloads and doubts

that sometimes arise working online"

Nicki has disconnected.

The housekeeper arrives to remove Nicki.

mezchinic says, "i might try and x.plore loki's stuff, so if i disappear, thx christy 4 a great s.sue [as usual], and congrats all 4 sterling work."

Helen says, "A very lively conversation!"

Marvella shares a URL...
http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/frame5/

Deena nods, looking at the overloads

Cleo says, "yes, that's probably the best answer thus far - but I close those windows before they even load usually- they anger me"

Sue says, "congratulations Christy and thanks to all of you"

Deena claps.

Deena claps.

Everdeen says, "Cleo me too, it's not so different from turning the page in magazine"

Sue has disconnected.

Marvella says, "Thanks ,Sue, and thanks all for being here."

mezchinic has disconnected.

The housekeeper arrives to remove mezchinic.

Everdeen says, "thanks everyone"

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