frAme5: Digital Labour, for
Love or Money?
18th February 2001
In the trAce room at LinguaMOO:
Present: Sue, _m, Deena, Marvella, Mazzy, Cleo, mezchine,
MichelleG, Helen, Loki93c
Deena says, "Would
everyone introduce themselves?"
Deena shares a URL...
mezchine is a ][net][wor][k][dsmith.
_m is just some guy. He used to or still does do hypertext-like
Mazzy is Pauline Masurel
Cleo says, "Cleo is Claire Dinsmore"
Helen says, "We should give people time to arrive, especially if they haven't MOOed
Marvella glances at clock 3:58
Cleo it seems everyone here is involved with the issue. any
mezchine freezes in place, an ice sculp.toure.....
Marvella waves wildly to Helen and Sue
Sue says, "hey christy!"
Brock says, "I am a visitor from Brock University, met MazThing last night. we have
our own Moo"
Marvella says, "If only I could remember how to do things here from
week to week!"
Sue says, "where is Brock Univ?"
Deena says, "Hi reiner!"
Brock says, "Check it out sometime, http://webct.brocku.ca:7000/
reiner says, "hello"
Marvella hugs Reiner
Cleo says, "hey, the title of my piece is wrong - it's "The
Dazzle as Question""
Brock says, "Brock U in in St Catharines, Ontario canada"
mezchine says, "elloah reiner:)"
Cleo says, "hello reiner. welcome"
Sue says, "thanks Brock, i will take a look"
Marvella says, "wants a mezchine"
Deena Rereads and blushes...
Marvella says, "I want a mezmachine"
Cleo thanks :)
Brock says, "sure, visit anytime. we're
having our own discussion tonite, at 6 pm eastern, so add 5 hrs to that--Someone TOADED someone else
in our moo."
mezchine hands marvella a script log, m.bossed with cryptic yellow
Marvella says, "This will become my prized possession."
Helen says, "where's your moo Brock?"
mezchine float][ation][s, a grin spreading thru her ink-blotted text
Brock says, "Hmm? The url is http://webct.brocku.ca:7000/
Loki93c says, "thanx Mazzy"
Deena passes around charms to ward off toads
Brock says, "good idea, Deena!"
MichelleG hangs a charm around her neck.
Marvella kisses Margie on both cheeks
margie says, "oh jeez, everything coming back--hi all!"
Marvella lapses into French
Brock places the charm around her neck
Deena says, "Margie, are you guys having blackouts stilll..."
margie says, "no, we haven't had any blackouts recently, be we are still on
stage 3 alert!"
margie says, "my golly, huge number of folks here!1"
Deena Stretches her arms wide and welcomes everyoneHelen echoes that
margie says, "Michelle, I really enjoyed your article--so much good
to think about!"
Deena says, "Great. Well, we have lots of people here and will still welcome more as they
Deena says, "Welcome to the trAce chat on trAce's new work,
MichelleG [to margie]: "Thanks for the kind words.
Helen says, "We must congratulate Christy and the contributors right away for a
wonderful issue of frAme"
margie says, "And Christy--such a fine job you did--"
Sue says, "yes congratulations and thanks"
mezchine holds 14 chrome strainds, hovering 2gether ova a flat circiutry harp. they begin 2
Deena Yes three thousand cheers for frames
margie says, "you are a marvel, indeed"
Marvella says, "Thanks, Helen and thanks to all the contributors, many of
whom are here!"
Cleo says, "who is michelle and what is the article?"
Loki93c says, "i think i'm back now"
mezchine says, "is christy here??"
Deena says, "Could the frAme authors and Christy introduce
Marvella says, "Yes, I am marvella"
Helen says, "Christy introduce yourself!"
Brock says, "yes, please"
margie says, "Michelle wrote about the
responsibility of educators to let students know about the work conditions in
the digital field"
reiner says, "ah"
Cleo says, "yes, it's beautiful - afraid i haven't had a chance to peruse
it yet though"
margie says, "Christy IS THE MARVAELLA"
Helen says, "So Marvella the mermaid is our
talented editor, Christy. I am Helen Whitehead of trAce. Anyone else care
to introduce themselves?"
Deena lights up as she recognizes Christy as the marvel she
reiner says, "marvelous?"
Marvella says, "Yes, many of us have physical problems that Michelle talks about--problems related to
mezchine is an autured agent, a
][net][wor][k][dsmithian who chews text and spitpaints lectric
m.mages [aka an net.artist who has been caught in the netwurk for a full
6 years now]
Marvella warmly greets Saada
Sue says, "I'm Sue Thomas, Director of trAce - trAce commissions these editions
margie says, "I'm Margie, Luesebrink, M.D. and right now
Mazzy is Pauline Masurel, contributor to frAme5 and longtime
member of trAce
Deena says, "welcome everyone! we are introducing our guests: editors and writers
Cleo says, "hello joel - welcome my friend"
margie says, "nice piece, Pauline!"
Loki93c says, "Loki93c is Loki93c The CyberMancer"
joelweishaus says, "hi all""
reiner says, "i am reiner ;)"
Helen says, "It's great to see so many of our contributors
Saada says, "Hello everyone beautiful cover"
margie says, "hi reiner. my e-mails have been
MichelleG is an academic and sometimes digital labor
joelweishaus says, "I mean hi Margie""
Deena says, "You can see frAme by clicking
on the link http://www.helptalen.org/frame.htm
at the right, it will open into a new window. You can also see short bios by clicking on the names--which will open in
the same page..."
Sue says, "Welcome everyone and thank you very much for all your hard work - we are very
proud to publish frAme"
margie says, "ha"
Deena says, "It is so great to see so many dedicated workers and excited people in the
Marvella says, "Thanks, Saada"
Helen says, "This is the second frAme that Christy has edited, and both
Cleo says, "Claire Dinsmore, contributor ever enthralled with the question of the
mezchine says, "marvella the outakes r fantastic as well as the
margie says, "Sue, frAme fills a real need in the community to have ongoing discussion about our work
Deena says, "I would like to lead cheers and congratulations for
Marvella says, "Yes, all the beautful people. Thanks mezzie"
Sue says, "good Margie, I'm glad"
Sue says, "Let me remind you that we are now looking for contributors for
the next edition"
Brock says, "Will Victor Vitanza be joining us?"
MichelleG cheers wildly.
Sue says, "it iwll be called Net : Spirit"
Helen says, "And after the congrats... some
detail. The idea of writing for love or money is close to the hearts of
Marvella says, "I hope Victor can make it."
reiner says, "spirit"
margie says, "Victor says he won"
mezchine offers a chromeic cup of silver sparking wine 2 all n
Cleo says, "indeed!"
Sue says, "so hope some people here will contribute - but first let's celebrate this
Deena says, "Yes, we'd like to ask Christy and the authors What do you love
about this medium?""
Helen says, "Christy and I came up with the
idea on an airport bus in Texas... weren't you there too Margie? What was the idea behind
this topic, Christy?"
margie says, "being here"
Deena takes the sparkling wine and leads never ending toasts and
margie says, "yes, the bus to San Antonio?"
mezchine swivels her monitor 2 the side, listening.....
Marvella says, "I will say something dopey,
like I love the luminosity of pixels and the ever changing weirdups that inspire me to think about depth, tech
margie says, "the train to San Antonio"
margie says, "the plane to San Antonio"
Deena says, "on the way to the HT00 conference?""
Cleo says, "the vast range of the audiance, the new capabilities for the
margie says, "yes"
Helen says, "depth, tech and ... sex?"
Deena says, "What new capabilities intrigue you, Cleo?"
Loki93c says, "the siren lure of the mo0dem's song"
Marvella says, "I like the ideas that come from the medium, some of which I mentioned in the intoduction
to this issue."
mezchine libi][torpe][does the point, a general creative
Marvella says, "yes"
Deena says, "How do you work with the medium to spark these
MichelleG says, "for me, this medium is
seductive because it so stridently challenges the constraints under which we've come to imagine what writing might
Helen says, "yes, Loki, for some of us that music the modem plays is like a magical interlude leading
to wonderful things...."
Brock says, "Ideas, but at a cost. Can the
technology be a hinderance as well as a faciliator? Think of cramped fingers,
and cyber addiction?"
margie says, "and a whole set of new constraints that are always a different kind
Marvella says, "yes, Michelle. Agree. Its also addictive. I find once I start its hard
Cleo says, "Having been an 'old scool'
[static] artist and writer for about 30 years, it's the freedom of expression via movement and sound chiefly - the extension of
the voices [s]"
Marvella says, "I think Margie and I would agree"
Deena says, "Michelle, what are some of those challenges?"
margie says, "having been a print writer for about 30 years--it's the
color and sound"
Loki93c says, "i like the idea its a new frontier, with lots to
exlore & chart"
MichelleG says, "I agree with Cleo -- the
ability to write so freely with images and sound (film is sooo expensive) is a
joelweishaus says, "For me, as a writer, it cuts down on the paperwork, sort of,
reiner says, "it is the new in the old"
Mazzy says, "Do others think that obsession
with a work in progress is a common feature of the work,
a sort of overwhelm?"
Deena says, "Brock, yet every media has its techological hindrances...paper, painting,
mezchine trawls bac in2 her past, a present
snipp][ed][net of text lust, a drawn out cawlling 2 a medium devoid of
gr][andiose][eed and replication...
margie says, "you also can say things with
hypermedia that you cannot, simply cannot, say in linear print--suggestions, innuendoes, multiplicties. that
Marvella says, "yes, Mazzy, I do"
Loki93c says, "yes Mazzy"
Deena says, "Yes, I think an unfinished hypertext or new media work takes over your life---there are
so many complications!"
Mazzy smiles at all the over-focused obsessed people in the room
Brock says, "granted, but in this case, the hinderances of
painting don't destroy many marriages."
Deena says, "How do people handle these obsessions?"
margie says, "oh, I don't know, I was just
as obsessed with the ongoingness of print writing--it just wasn't so
Deena passes around more fun and laughter
Marvella says, "Therein lies some of the
physical danger. You dont realize you're holding your wrists in the same position
Saada says, "What I like about the media is how easy it is to change one's
MichelleG [to Deena]: "yes, and each of those complications is a juicy knot
to be engaged.
Mazzy says, "Margie, where do you think the 'extra fun' comes from in
screen or net work?"
Deena says, "right. We need to be ergonomically reminded..."
mezchine presses a probefingah 2 the screen...
Deena says, "and corrected"
Saada says, "I also like the ability to experiment with colour
margie says, "obsession with writing and
painting surely has destroyed many marriages, you just don't hear about it because the obsessed one is the
Helen says, "I think any creative work can
take over your life, writing a novel can be just as engrossing as a webwork.... but I sometimes think there is more work in
a web piece"
Marvella says, "funny, Margie!"
Deena says, "How does writing a web piece compare to writing a print piece or
doing physical artwork?"
Marvella says, "Yes, often its the tech that becomes difficult
Cleo says, "too many - i've been feeling a
bit overwhelmed lately - wondering the what the cost of the intrigue
with the appartatus might actually be to the nature of the creative
impetus itself. that is, are there too many distractions [bells & whistles] deterring
Deena says, "For those of you who have done both, which is more difficult? more
Marvella says, "Guess that is one of the differences, Helen,"
Loki93c says, "its Alive, hammered text isn't."
margie says, "one thing about digital work
is that you can trust the chaos more. yo work on what you can do that day, maybe graphic, maybe solve a coding problem, maybe
mezchine says, "deena, the m.mersity is the
key changepoint, the time it takes 2 re][mote][search, 2 key the l.ement][aries][ 2 gether, and
then create. "
Marvella says, "Yes, Cleo, I think that often happens. Sometimes
Mazzy says, "I think one of the difficulties
of writing online is that often one is learning the technology, the vocabulary at the same time
Deena says, "Cleo, that is a great point.
What do you guys think? are the explorations into what we can do detracting from producing
MichelleG says, "One of my concernse is not
ao much the destruction of relationships (the gambit against gaming
has critiqued that) but the destruction of our bodies. Nearly all of
my colleagues suffer from their work -- and they are fairly young. How will we
Saada says, "Good point Mazzy"
oga arrives from Courtyard
Marvella says, "Maybe well spend the second half of our web lives polishing the former work. Not
Brock says, "Teledildonics? We the physical technology catch
margie says, "I can't work at the computer for more than about 5 hours at a stretch, and stretch is
the key word--"
joelweishaus says, "Learning technique has always been a part of a work of art.
You don;t just paint.""
Deena says, "What steps can we take to make
sure we hold up? I am taking weight training and trying to keep in
shape, looking at ergonomic issues, but it is hard when you get lost in the intricacies of the work...what are
Brock says, "Will we all use voice commands, the Dragon software
Marvella says, "Yes, good point Michelle. Re: the physical
mezchine says, "i think claire is right on
topic here, in that the temptation 4 creators 2 use the tools 2
n.voke f.fects that they think constitutes content is a real problem
4 the genre..."
reiner says, "in each media the material has its resistance"
Deena says, "Brock, whatarre teledildonics?"
Brock says, "move beyond typing into another new frontier of keyboards
in your head?"
Cleo says, "i wonder, though, if that may
just be temporary. that is, it's early - maybe as the media/um
becomes more standard the issues of tech will not hold such a
Deena says, "Right. we learn to paint by
painting, and learn this medium by creating in it...but are we using tools in exchange
margie says, "not myhead, please"
Marvella says, "Say more, Reiner about resistance"
Helen says, "well, yes really!"
Brock says, "Teledildonics refers to the
body suit which is hardwired into software, If I type: Touch your shoulder, you
Loki93c says, "neuroverse"
mezchine says, "or claire, will remain @ the centre
Mazzy says, "Cleo but don't you think the pace of change is such that the media will
always be shifting?"
reiner says, "you are too fast ;)"
mezchine says, "heya talan:)"
margie says, "hey talaln"
joelweishaus says, "The paint itself is content, isn't it?""
Sue says, "hi Talan!"
Marvella says, "Hi, Talan!"
Loki93c says, "painting by numbers=#0000FF"
joelweishaus says, "Hey Talan""
Deena says, "Hi Talan, we are talking about the pace of technology and more with the authors and
editor of frAme"
Marvella says, "Good way of expressing it, Oki93c"
reiner says, "the material on the net is not only the tech"
Marvella says, "Yes"
Deena says, "Why are you working in new media? What rewards do
you get? "
Cleo says, "yes joel, but once one has
learned a craft/media, that's pretty much it - this is ever changing
- you only scrape the surface and all the sudden there's new tech. to learn - it
MichelleG [to joelweishaus]: "yes, this
electronic medium is great for reintroducing the notion that form is content. It's so blatant (yet, my students
Mazzy says, "But the technology forms a part
of the vocabulary, or at least the ability to say something
in a given way"
Loki93c says, "i get peace & quiet"
Cleo says, "hello talan - welcome"
Marvella says, "Right, Cleo, and I wont mention Netscape6"
joelweishaus says, "Do you want it to stop?""
margie says, "I agree about the pace of technology."
Deena says, "We don't have the years with the tool, tools seem to be around for months... how do
we keep up?"
mezchine draw][l][s on a ][circuit][ board, solderin polymer brands
Deena says, "Listens to Christy/Marvella on Netscape 6
Saada says, "*I think that is part of the fun for dilettantes
like me Cleo"
Brock says, "The same feeling of
accomplishment at finishing the last brush stroke of a painting is
the feeling I get when I am done the last line of code in software. Is that why you are working in the
Deena says, "What rewards do we get from the fast pace of technology and
Marvella says, "How can we learn new stuff if the browser begins to
joelweishaus says, "You know, too, this the
technical challange of media art is growing new neurons,
changing the human brain.""
Cleo says, "although i love it immensely, I question that - what is being suffered
oga says, "and also the reading of new media alters the way we
read old media"
margie says, "the personalization of complexity, exactly,
Deena starts exercising her brain more.
mezchine a code, dripping with a sy][i][n.aptic-tocking
Mazzy says, "Deena, I think for me the main
rewards of working on line have been the collaborative connections
Marvella says, "This is a fast crowd, Deena"
Deena hands out complexity makers with lots of lovely painting
oga says, "one starts to feel a desire to read a book like it's a painting, like a
Sue says, "Oga, yes, very true!"
joelweishaus says, "Think of your studio as an exercise
Deena says, "Oga, like a hummument?"
oga says, "has anyone seen jeff noon's cobralingus?"
oga says, "a human document"
margie says, "the connections and friends
are great - but even if no one ever said hi, I would still want to do it....something
about the construction--"
Sue says, "it is from a book by the artist Tom Phillips"
margie says, "like a box of ten thoughsand crayons"
Deena says, "Mazzy, I think connections and collaborations have been wondrous additions in my life
oga says, "that book by whassis name, tom phillips, yes, Sue"
Sue says, "he reworked old books into other forms - hard to
Deena says, "Margie, what rewards do you get from the
Mazzy says, "Margie, but to some extent are you not in collaboration with the tools even if not
with other writers?"
Sue says, "you need to see a copy to appreciate it"
mezchine grasps a Complexity Maker [inc] by the handle and shakes it, listening 2 the
Deena says, "Oga, do you have a URL for JEff Noon?"
oga says, "Cobralingus really epitomizes the shift that net.art and remix technology is having
oga says, "sure"
oga says, "let me find it Deena"
Brock says, "so, are we--the busy bees of
cyberspace going to invent the new way of moving beyond the physical limitations of the net experience? It's got to
come from us."
Nicki says, "hi, one thing for me is that I'm starting to think more visually, into and beyond words, much
margie says, "oh, I love the other writers, and this is a great
oga says, "bb"
Helen says, "deena, you're one of the few
"professional" hypertext writers who isn't also an academic. do you
feel all the work you put in to your
pieces is worthwhile?"
Deena says, "Brock, how are we inventing that new way of
margie says, "but the idea of constrcuting
something that has never been made before, never even thought of, just
blows me away"
Brock says, "well, software like Dragon Naturally Speaking, so I can speak not kill
my joints typing..."
Deena says, "Helen, I love the community. It
is such a vibrant, fast moving world. I admit I get whirled by a lot, but it
Cleo says, "for me all the details are a
great seduction - i used to be a metalsmith and bookmaker, and i
love learning the details/how things work/ what the media/um can do
- the drug here is constantly feeding me with new possibilities,
details, combinations ..."
oga says, "here it is deena,
Deena says, "Margie, yes. I think we are so
lucky we can do new things. When I was writing print, I felt discouraged, as I could never see anything NEW to
do or say..."
oga says, "absolutely Cleo"
Brock says, "but there is so many more tech
advancements that need to be made. The internet which SMELLS is out there now--but what about the net that's
3-d? Think Johnny Nmenonic"
margie says, "yes, Deena"
Deena shares a URL...
mezchine says, "brock, haven't we already
n.itiated this process? as in moving 'beyond" the geosensory real
in2 an arean where collaboration is actually redefining wot we
term as 'real"?"
oga says, "that is why I like the interbreeding of technolgies, the mix between
flesh and reality"
joelweishaus says, "I like the quick replies from editors.""
Helen says, "so it is being at the forefront of discovery and experiment that
Deena says, "THanks Oga... I think the key word here is NEW"
oga says, "cobralingus is one of my books of this year"
margie says, "even now I think when I read
linear ficiton that I wouldn't really be able to do what I wanted, say something in a new
Deena says, "Being at the forefront..."
Mazzy hangs on for grim death in case she disconnects too
oga says, "it's beyond a linear fiction,
Noon takes quotes and then slips them through a filter, engines of corruption, decay and enhancing narratives that seem to rise out
of disconnected detail"
margie says, "que pasa"
Brock says, "true, but there is still the
computer mediating the experience. There will come a day when the
big grey box of my CPU isnt needed...I dont know in what form, but
for now we have grey boxes talking to grey boxes, and people are
seccondary in the process . My computer doesnt KNOW me, it only knows I and O--Not very
Deena shares a URL...frAme 5
MichelleG says, "I wonder what will happen
as the web becomes more and more like television. Do folks here
consider that? I think of the changes we've seen since the web
became commercialized. Those early halcyon days gone by still call
to me ..."
Deena says, "You can share URLs by typing @URL http://www.
margie says, "good point Michelle--the golden days!"
Cleo says, "argh, it's the word 'new' that
distresses me so here - as if that constituted validity in itself.
Quality is still a valid issue i believe, that has nothing to do with
'new,' but with depth/content"
Helen says, "michelle, i rather dread the TV-web we'll be in the hands of yet more technologies
and their experts"
Brock says, "only we can change that."
oga says, "Just someone who likes this kind of stuff, sue"
simon mills arrives.
margie says, "hi simon"
Sue says, "hey simon!"
reiner says, "the fascination of the net is not the tech. the tech
are only the clothes..."
Deena says, "wait, we have been through
several golden days, the golden days of hypertext with Coover, the
golden free days of the web... are we really missing stuff now with the
web as ebusiness?"
mezchinic static shifts thru a
hyperethereality, a swapping of time.ic constraints 2 morph the golden with the
Mazzy says, "But isn't the difference with
the web that it will still be possible to gain access and present
material at low cost...it may need to fight for an audience but it can at least
Deena says, "Reiner, could you say more about that? What is under the clothes
margie says, "not if the servers have your links last on the list. think AOL
for controlled access"
oga says, "sue, I don't know how to page you back"
Deena says, "Mazzy, good point. We can still reach a potential audience of millions for$30
Loki93c says, "beneath techKnowledgy's clothes r images in my
Deena says, "To page someone, type page NAME " message"
reiner says, "ideally under the clothes is thinking"
mezchinic eye.mages loki, tracking a remote m.mage 2 its
Deena peeks under the techies shiny clothes to see the thoughts and images that can
finally be expressed.
margie says, "undeer the clothes is flesh and bone and sinew and
Brock says, "is hypertext a language which creates an exclusive
Mazzy says, "but you still need the tech, just as a painter will still need the skills
of their medium"
Helen says, "trAce will face ebusiness to get the support tto allow all these artists to
continue to explore..."
Loki93c says, "the images r a respone to thinking, one blots out
Cleo i love you reiner ...
reiner says, "(i live in Wiesbaden - nearby Frankfurt)"
margie says, "Brock, I don't think hypertext is an exclusive culture,
but it is self-selelcting"
Deena says, "So the rewards we are seeing
are being at the forefront, being able to do new things, seeing what the media can do, collaborating... what did
Brock says, "The same way painters stick with other
Deena says, "Margie, how is ht self selecting?"
MichelleG says, "one of the things that has
come with commercialization (and the coming convergence of
television with the web?) is the remarginilazation of amateur
efforts. In part e-mediums are seductive because they're accessible. *I* can do this. *I* can't make
Marvella says, "under the clothes is code"
Helen says, "yes exactly michelle"
mezchinic says, "brocck, its a trickle down
tendril affecting medium, s.pecially now the commerical aspect is thought bi many 2 b the de][a][fining
Deena says, "Right HElen, ELOis working with ebusiness too to help promote elit
and enw media..."
Deena tries to crack the code under the clothes
margie says, "yes, Michelle--the more
difficult the browsers, the more one needs a whole crew of people just to debug
Loki93c says, "the neurons in our headz run on on/off, same as
binary = 1/0"
Marvella says, "I have ones and zeros as bra and panties"
Brock says, "accessibility creating the
global net village? A kid in Zambia can make a webpage, an elderly person in Canada can
make a webapge?"
Deena says, "Michelle, how do you see the remarginalization here? is it in the "professional" look and
feel? or the access?"
oga says, "yes, and this means that amateur efforts are not
marginalized at all"
reiner says, "under the clothes is code - but is code (good for)
mezchinic says, "really marvella? :)"
Deena looks down at her clothes and remakes them in binary
oga says, "it is our selection of the dross, that remarginalizes technology
Mazzy says, "People born in the century before last can make a webpage,
Loki93c says, "dna=code java=code result=art"
Deena says, "Oga, our selection of the dross? could you
simon_mills says, "a kid in Zambia can make a webpage but can he afford sql
Marvella laughs, really1
oga says, "Deena, I mean all these millions of webpages, all these people are producing net.art in
their own way."
mezchinic says, ":)"
reiner says, "art is not touchable (no flesh)"
Brock says, "Actually, speaking of that, aren't we making the 3rd world our
Marvella hugs Simon
MichelleG says, "I feel it's a bit of both.
But I'm mainly thinking of the increasing cost of software. Now, I need Dreamweaver,
Photoshop, Flash, etc."
Deena says, "Do we need SQL space? I am
thinking about the lightweight contest in boston in April, where art should be less
Deena says, "Don't have the URL on me..."
Brock says, "Sending them 286's and old software keeps them all in the
techo dark ages"
oga says, "their talent increases to the extent where people such as these on this
chat take notice"
Deena says, "Sorry Michelle, I interrupted. Could you
Saada says, "Yes but they don't get very long to look at it "
joelweishaus says, "Do you think this will pass, will people lose interest in web
Marvella says, "Send them Netscape 6"
Saada says, "Mazzy"
Mazzy says, "Brock, but isn't it better to have something than to be
Helen says, "http://www.liteshow.org"
Brock jokes about netscape 6 too
mezchinic says, "michelle, u don't *need*
them, that's falling in2 the commericalist trap of assuming the
latest gadgets acn allow u 2 create the latest *n.sert
simon_mills says, "I was just using sql server as an example of how expensive and sophisticated things
Brock says, "hmm. Good counter thought, Mazzy"
oga says, "I think that bandwidth will chnge the decline in interest
on the web"
Deena says, "Thanks Helen"
Helen says, "Well Kids on the Net is trying to expand provision of webspace to kids in Zambia and
elsewhere in Africa"
simon_mills says, "and soon just as you
can't make a film you might not be able to afford to make
"cutting edge" web sites"
reiner says, "advertising spots are short nevertheless
MichelleG says, "My concern is two-fold. Who
can afford the new-fangled software (Dreamweaver, Photoshop, Flash,
etc.) and who can afford the health care needed to continue
margie says, "you can't make cutting edge
websites any more--the technology is getting too difficult--but you can make
Marvella says, "good point, Helen! Didnt know you were doing
joelweishaus says, "I mean, what if this all turns out to be a fad? We have such an intimate
view right now.""
Deena says, "Good point simon. But in the
film industry, isn't it all or nothing? Either a large budget or no
film at all? I think there is a much broader scale of economy and possiblity in
Brock says, "like making smokers pay taxes to pay for healthcare? A
mezchinic x.tracts a brown-lined document
from the archive, flipping thru the crumble-kode, and dreams
of linked realities.
_m [to simon_mills]: how about digital
media, then? AtomFIlms has a section for those budding filmmakers...
not with any mm film, but with digital cameras and such... it isn't
*as* restrictive/impossible as it once was...
Marvella says, "a fad?"
Nicki says, "but if you don't know about
dreamweaver, flash etc. you feel as though you're lagging behind -
how to keep up, or is it all to create a
state of anxiety?"
Deena wards off the revenewers with some moonshine
Marvella says, "Maybe maginalized like video artist but not a
joelweishaus says, "Yes, something else sexier comes along.""
Deena says, "Yes, I feel anxious because I
don't do databases or the latest animation...but maybe that is where the collaboration
Mazzy says, "Nicki, I agree, I just don't
want to go there, but I still feel there might just be a way to say something without
Helen says, "I agree mazzy"
Saada says, "A bit more like TV than film at times- and most TV has very limited budget and
margie says, "well it will always be the
case that something new will come. but how many folks get to be on board of even one
simon_mills says, "fair point _m, there will always be resources to help
out some people"
reiner says, "technologies have made it more
easy to produce (and less expensive) --- it becomes more a quaetion
of time (=
Mazzy stays onboard an old Thing
Brock says, "but who is leading the
"vcersion 2.1, version 3.7, version 9.9 cat and mouse game? Who says you have to have all the latest? Is it
a commercial ploy?"
mezchinic says, "nicki if yr strength of
creation lies outside the fad-gagde.try, the latest software, then u'll b right...no matter wot tools u
Marvella says, "Yes, Margie, this is the revolution now."
Cleo says, "i don't thinking being on the
'cutting edge' is important concerning art - if it's good it's good, it musn't be new to be
Marvella says, "But will it go the way of the stockmarket?
Deena says, "Yes, I think we should use the tools that let us express our meaning, and rejoice that we
oga has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove oga.
margie says, "the new web versions are being introduced by companies like
AOL and Netscape"
Deena says, "Christy, how can we help the revolution go up?"
mezchinic says, "snap claire;)"
margie says, "they want to sell stuff with the browsers, so you
joelweishaus says, "When I said a fad--another way to say it, one big
Deena says, "How can we as a new media community help increase the rewards
for digital labour?"
margie says, "these huge, juggernaut marketing machines instead of browsers--it
Marvella says, "I worry that if all these tech companies go bankrupt it will slow all our
artistic progress down"
MichelleG says, "I realize I'm using
borrowed equipment today, but my shoulders already ache. Is
anyone else hurting?"
reiner says, "have we to sell anything;) ?"
Deena says, "Right. Our media is very tenuous, you must have a modem, electricity, and a
Cleo says, "the capitalists - capital is
behind this you know, whether we like it or not. why do you think
the nature of software developement often leaves artist's in the dust? they don't care about us: we are
not $ makers."
Saada says, "I wonder when people are
worrying about not being on the cutting edge whether their real worry is that other people can do what they
Brock says, "Marvella: If the marketing co's go out of business it will be like
the utopia of before!"
Marvella says, "Yes, Michelle, my hands are ice and my shoulder
Deena says, "Michelle, me too. I am at
Kinkos again, this time as all Denver's ISP connections are out at the source
Marvella says, "It wont be just marketing"
Loki93c says, "i don't care if i'm cutting
edge or lost in the distance. i enjoy myself either way, the journey being everything
oga arrives from Courtyard
joelweishaus says, "Deena, why?""
Sue says, "have you expereinced the collapse of the dotcoms inthe
Deena says, "you guys are wonderful to share insights and chat like this despite the
margie says, "wow, such doom and gloom! If we like this so much, and a the lastest stats say
that people would"
Brock says, "The ISP crash is exactly what I was talking about earlier. We have to develop a *new* or
*better* way. "
MichelleG [to Deena]: "I think we need to
concentrate some effort on valuing digital labor. The medium issues forth from a terrible history (ask those workers in
Deena says, "Yep. The collabpse of the dotcomes have been really
fun out here."
Sue says, "they talk about thgis all the time in england - last year was
the big boom"
Marvella says, "have we ever, Sue! harrowing"
margie says, "rather give up their tv's than their browsing ... someone has to be able to
make a profit"
Saada says, "Is an artist someone who produces something beautiful or merely someone who
produces something unique"
Sue says, "but we have been here all the time!!"
Nicki says, "yes, I'd like to rely on my own
creative tools, but can't help wondering what browser and plug-ins
people are using. Once I may have caught up other people may have
moved on and want more. Is one question who we're creating for? Do we need to know, to
Deena says, "Yes. How do we value that labor, Michelle?"
oga says, "not for the people who work for them"
Sue says, "dot coms come and go, but we'rew still here"
Marvella says, "I like new, Saada, but new can be beautiful"
Deena says, "Right, Sue, how do we get people to see and enter the community, and not conflate us with
mezchinic holds up a flatbed screen splashed
with the jumbled green text of: "i
w i l l n o t b e f i s c a l l y d e f i
n e d "
reiner says, "'cutting edge' reminds me at the flat earth modell - do not
fall down - "
Sue says, "saada - 'merely' ?"
joelweishaus says, "Saada, isn't beauty uniqueness?""
Marvella says, "You should hold up a sign!"
Deena says, "Good question Nikki, why are we creating the art?
who is it for?"
margie says, "yay mez"
Deena holds up a BIG sign:
| are we creating accessible
Loki93c says, "good point Deena"
Marvella says, "Uniqueness doesnt guarantee anything. Birth defects
can be unique."
Deena says, "Mez, to hold up a sign, type bb and your
Brock says, "not accesible unless you PAY. I pay $30 for a
reiner says, "surely - log in ;)"
Deena says, "Right, how do we get this to be a sustainable art
Sue says, "ok, here is a question re money"
joelweishaus says, "Then what is beauty?""
Mazzy says, "I think the key to rewarding
digital labour is to look at the audience and find a model for an economy where a reader or viewer can find and pay for
what they enjoy"
Sue says, "would people pay to see frAme?"
Marvella says, "But, again, I do like making things new, breaking taboos, new ground,
Brock says, "I would."
margie says, "the frAme issue, tho, is all
non-fiction. I think that frAme is doing something very interesting by having Christy curate an issue like this--not
fiction or poetry"
Deena says, "And if people will pay, how do we make it convenient for
them to pay?"
Helen says, "audience development is very
important: I'm all for audience development... give them access,
give them a taster of what's out there apart from shopping -- of course, then they want to write it
Sue says, "becauwse if people pay, then the artists can get
margie says, "but thoughtful examination"
Sue says, "but if people wont pay - then - who pays the
Loki93c says, "audiences...............hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhm"
Deena says, "we will chat March 18 about
business models for the new media art and lit, so these are great questions to get us started
in that direction"
Nicki says, "don't artists do it for 'love'? Is that where I'm
Marvella says, "The government of England? :-)"
joelweishaus says, "Do artists get paid? I must have missed
talanM has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove talanM.
Brock says, "love dont feed ya"
Mazzy says, "Margie, sorry I'm late, but my contribution is largely
fiction not non-fiction"
margie says, "artists and writers haven't
been paid all that much (except for a few) in all of history--no reason
to change things"
oga says, "the problem is that there is nothing outside the web to redirect consumers to
MichelleG [to Deena]: "I can only think we
start where we are. How many times do I go to meetings and here
university adminstitrators talk about getting new media students to
*volunteer* their talents, time, and bodies to working on the
schools website? (too many) We don't value this labor because it
appears to be fun (and, well, it is, isn't it) and if it's fun it
can't also be labor (in our ideological twist -- say thanx to the Puritans).
Now I'm ranting!
mezchinic says, "deena my methods of
creating r flexible, i try 2 maintain my output 2 n.clude work that
is at its most basic simple text on a screen 2 more n.volved
crafting......if we manage 2 n.corporate l.ements that cover the spectrum of audience members [within/out reason] then
oga says, "For example napster actually increases CD sales"
Deena says, "Well, yes. but we have to pay
for our connections, our access, our computers.... we have to pay at least $30 a month to keep
our work accessible..."
Loki93c says, "we got 'paid' only after holding the promoter outta
oga says, "but often artists don't have any
external media that seeing online art for free encourages customers to purchase their
Symbolic_Guest says, "I think the ruling against Napster was an own goal for
the record industry"
margie says, "make a CD??"
Deena says, "good rant Michelle. How do we get people to value the labor involved in our
oga says, "I always want to buy something from people, but can't because I can only access it
on the web"
MichelleG says, "i'm curious. Are many of the net.artists here paying the rent with a
digital day job?"
Symbolic_Guest says, "they mis-read how to use the tech to
Deena looks for windows to hold promoter out of and settles for this
windows 98 computer...
mezchinic says, "i've realised that unless
ure comfortable with selling yr work in terms of compromise along
the design axis, then u won't make a great deal of mooolah
in this genre"
margie says, "not a chance Michelle--it's outgo all the way,
whatever you do."
Deena says, "I am paying rent with a quasi web designer job, but it is not
at all the same..."
joelweishaus says, "We need to establish a better granting system. Get Clinton to raise
money for it.""
Deena says, "Mez, what do you mean by compromises..."
Brock says, "Gerge Dub-ya"
margie says, "right brock. maybe we can design war sites"
Deena says, "right, I think the administration may make getting
grants more interesting..."
Brock says, "sure!!! get into Do D jobs! design "smak saddam"
Helen says, "Brock, thanks! I've only just realised what Dub-ya
Marvella says, "yes, we are at it again. At war."
mezchinic says, "deena i mean making yr work accesible 2 the point of altering
yr stylistic parameters..."
Mazzy says, "From my own point of view, my
offline work is not in a particularly lucrative vein and I don't see online prospects as being much more pessemistic,
Brock says, "and I m the Canadian"
Deena says, "HOw do we increase people's awareness..."
margie says, "yes, and interactive maps, guns and rah rah"
Deena says, "Mazzy, so you see the online as being more optimistic
for your work?"
oga says, "mez, do you mean access as access on the web, or off
Mazzy says, "I see the same problems..."
oga says, "who do you want to access your work, and how?"
Mazzy says, "but some advantage that it is easier for someone to search and find my work if the
mezchinic says, "..and i think this is a
tragedy, dumbing down yr work until it becomes acceptable 2 a more mainstreamic audience...that's y i'll prolly be
dirt poor 4eva:)"
oga says, "in what ways do we limit access to our work?"
Deena holds up a BIG sign:
| How do we get people to our works, get them |
| to pay to view our works, and then
get the |
| monetary rewards of digital
Marvella says, "How do you see yourself in 3 years?"
Brock says, "access costs money. public pc terminals were tried, and failed. At & T charges
$2 per login."
Mazzy says, "there MIGHT in the future be
reward in that under some model...if I wanted rewards....I'd get a paper round,
mezchinic says, "oga i mean both"
Helen says, "one of the other roles a new
media writer must take on is marketing and publicity: you have to put yourself out there and send out
Marvella says, "Experimental work has never been a lucrative
Brock says, "good point Helen"
Deena calculates the monetary rewards, compares with a paper route, and envies
the paper boy...
Mazzy says, "Mez, to a certain extent tho,
if I wish to be read, it is by a real flesh & blood reader and
if the reader for my work does not exist, I must write for no one
or change it, no?"
margie says, "Helen, you are right about the pubicity--but that is another way
of spending money!"
oga says, "so, you mean dealing to the
common denominator, or slowly increasing sense to work someone into the deeper
mezchinic says, "marvella, n.deed. and it
doesn't help when all those trad canon paths come back in2
Brock says, "artists cannot just be artists. Marketer, Public relations and human resources
Cleo says, "I don't think, as Joel said,
there really are, as there never have been, monetary rewards for artists and writers - except the rare,
blessed few ..."
Marvella says, "Yeah, mez."
Deena says, "Right. I think we need to
concentrate on the roles of marketer, public relations. CAn we as a community help get the
Brock says, "so, barter system then? "
oga says, "and that rare, blessed few are
either these whose work is so impenetrable, but yet enjoyable, to the extent that it is simply experienced, yet
mezchinic says, "mazzy if u think so, but
how do u *know* that ppl rn't reading it? with an open source model for distribution, u have no regular comodified features/benchmarks on
which 2 rely..."
margie says, "I think of actors. Around
here, the statistics show that the average member of SAG makes about $20,000 a year. Better than us, but not
MichelleG says, "This question on how to
make money on *content* as they call it is hot. Some say the web
won't work. You've got to move to a subscription based model -- meaning
more email art."
oga says, "and the other, most successful is these who subvert and use the mainstream paradigms
to critique reality"
Nicki says, "Mazzy, will the flesh and blood
reader have more chance of getting in touch with you through reading
your on-line work? it's that interactivity that seems the key to some rewards -
not monetary, necessarily."
mezchinic says, "oga, yr spot on"
Deena says, "The average salary of a paper writer is $5,000 or
Mazzy says, "Nicki I think that's a good point..."
_m [to MichelleG]: what do you think of Automatic Media and their
Cleo says, "if you're doing it for $, i
don't think you're really an artist, or that is not your aim anyway - it's entertainment or design. confuse the intent and i think content
will suffer greatly\"
Mazzy says, "do others get reader response from those who use
joelweishaus says, "There are , I have many
friends, who hate computers, or fear them, so they don't see my work, for which
Deena says, "_m, do you have a URL for Automatic Media?"
Loki93c says, "i have 2 depart. night folks."
mezchinic says, "cleo, yr very very correct here:)"
Deena says, "Thanks for coming Loki :)"
Mazzy waves to Loki
Brock says, "good night Loki"
_m [to Deena]: it's not so much Auto media's site, but their investing in Suck and Feed and the recent
launch of Plastic.com...
margie says, "Cleo--I hear you, having said
it a couple of times. The issue of money is not the goal of the artist, but it is an issue with
Michelle's "digital labor""
Saada says, "The web offers a chance to
choose your path - you can go e-commerce and have admin paying you a
small percentage in return for doing the selling or you can self-publish and do your own
Sue says, "bye loki and thanks for your piece"
Mazzy says, "Cleo, surely it is possible to write with integrity and be
mezchinic says, "mazzy, i've been getting fanmail for years, sometimes it very strange and
other times lurvely..."
Marvella Waves bye, bye
Mazzy says, "at least in theory!"
Nicki says, "my dad now reads some of my writing that he wouldn't have done
any other way."
Sue says, "everyone, i'd like to introduce
Nicki Hastie - you may not know her - she is doing some fantastic
work with trAce"
Deena says, "yes, the neat thing about this
media is that people can write to you directly...and you can
interact with readers."
Marvella Yeah, more fanmail on the web than in print.
Mazzy says, "Mez in which case I suspect
that the accessibility is a big advantage over being print-published in an obscure journal, anyone can read
and contact you"
margie says, "nice tameetcha, Nickie"
Deena says, "I think if we elevate digital labor, we can elevate the digital
Sue says, "you'lkl find Nicki on our front page!"
Marvella greets Nicki!
Nicki says, "Sue, thank you for that. Hello everyone."
Brock says, "if you are listed in the search engines, and that is a gatekeeper system we need
Deena greets Nicki
Helen says, "unfortunately nowadays
accessibility on the web brings in more spam
than fanmail :("
mezchinic says, "mazzy 4 sure, that's y i choose open source distribution...i won't make any money off it
Sue smiles at Nicki.
Mazzy says, "true, Mez"
reiner says, "to Nicki - my dad hangs my cds
on the wall - is more pleased about a book (i am in) but not to read - to show
Deena makes spam sandwiches for all
Sue says, "reiner i like that!"
MichelleG says mmmm, spam...
Cleo says, "of course it is, but if monetary
success is the primary issue, not the art itself - it's a matter of priorities
and meaning ..."
Deena says, "My dad got a computer to read my stuff... that was
Marvella sings a new song, My Day Hangs my CDs on the Wall1 Country
Deena says, "how do we increase other nonmonetary rewards, like collaboration,
reiner says, "sorry have to leave now - good night - good morning mezzie - good afternoon america - ciao
- tschuess ............"
joelweishaus says, "Deena, I find e-mail more intimate than regular mail, because of
Nicki says, "it's nice to be asked eagerly by a parent if you've done anything new to your
Sue says, "bye reiner!"
Marvella says, "Bye, Reiner!"
Marvella says, "Love you"
Brock says, "good that u have suuport. i
find so many of the baby boomers equate net=
margie says, "bye reiner"
mezchinic says, "cya reiner:)"
MichelleG waves goodbye to reiner.
Brock says, "maybe thats it!!!!!!!!!!!"
Deena says, "I think that will change as generations grow..."
MichelleG says, "My parents have no idea what I do -- and I'm an academic working in this
Deena says, "and we get more comfortable witht he web.."
Brock says, "we;ll get the aby boomers to buy subscriptions to
Brock says, "thats an untapped target market"
Sue says, "we work with a lot of older people wholove the web -
mezchinic says, "deena, with the collapse
and active undermining of napster, it sets an awkward pre.c.dent 4
any type of alternate model on which 2 establish financial
support for artists..."
Deena hands round subscriptions to all and sundry baby
joelweishaus says, "Joel yells after Reiner, "Take care!""
Helen says, "we have to make it fashionable...."
Saada says, "Baby boomers they are young people in their fifties,
mezchinic says, "i mean artists working in a collaborative mode, or x.tended
Mazzy says, "Do you think that there is any
scope for art or writing as an independent form as added value at commercial sites, a sort of freebie magazine format
funded by business?"
Sue laughs at Saada.
Deena says, "Mez, yes, but has the Napster model really
Brock says, "they have time, and money. (-;"
Symbolic_Guest says, "no it hasn't "
Deena says, "Or did it run up against the shoals of copyright and
Marvella shares a URL...
Symbolic_Guest says, "napster works from a central database that's what
made it vulnerable"
margie says, "Mazzy--the thing about commercial help (something that ELO hoped
to garner) "
Brock says, "excellent way of putting it, deena"
mezchinic says, "in a fiscal sense i'd say yes deena, but in an underground sense,
Marvella says, "I just had to do that."
mezchinic says, "brb"
Symbolic_Guest says, "other software won't be so vulnerable"
margie says, "is that they are now the companies that are hardest hit by the
downturn. they aren't"
Deena says, "Maz, I saw Starbucks way of
putting up reading and creative writing... can we get more businesses to do
margie says, "freebing anything, or helping, right now"
joelweishaus says, "I found Digital Labor to be an important
Sue says, "we have this wokring the other way around'"
Deena says, "Symbol, can we develop peer to peer methods that won't be as
vulnearble as napster?"
Marvella says, "By the way, when you put up
a URL is it independent for each viewer or do you see that I changed from
the opening URL?"
Mazzy says, "margie, point taken, the art
HAS to bring in readership to be of symbiotic value to the business but the art MUST be
independent to not devalue
the work (maybe it's impossible)"
Brock says, "may I suggest that you contact other academics in "Teaching and Learning" in other institutions? Spread
Sue says, "we have been approached by a
hugely expensive site because they have no audience and we have lots - they want our people to come
over to them"
Sue says, "but - do we take advertising? theres the rub"
oga says, "hmmmm"
Deena says, "I think it is independant for all... I still see the intro screen of
Symbolic_Guest says, "I think advertising is fine"
Marvella says, "Oh"
oga says, "I have to get offline now, nice being here, see you
all next time"
Loki93c has disconnected.
Saada says, "I hate advertising. "
Sue says, "some people hate ads though"
oga smiles & waves
Sue says, "rthere you go!"
Nicki says, "do more people come because the site isn't seen to
Brock says, "you gotta play the game
sometimes, and try not to compromise too many of your values in
Deena says, "Sue, I think this is a problem art has faced throughout the
ages,patronage, advertising, etc..."
Symbolic_Guest says, "I hate advertising but still think it's ok
to use it"
Sue says, "if trAce was covered in ads, would it be the
Mazzy says, "If advertising doesn't
interfere with editorial then fine, I just ignore that bit of the screen where the
banner ad goes"
MichelleG says, "I'm glad Digital Labor has struck some chords. I continue to wrestle with those
Mazzy says, "if it gets into the content then no, bad news"
Symbolic_Guest says, "exactly Maz"
oga has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove oga.
Deena says, "will read this more closely."
Marvella shares a URL...
Sue says, "thanks christy"
Brock says, "beautiful."
Sue says, "i love the colours in this"
Deena Marvels at the complexity in this work
Marvella shares a URL...
Deena says, "I think we need to stay away
from the Amazon model, where advertising becomes the editing
Sue says, "mazzy can you say something about the ideas behind
MichelleG says, "Christy, the work you've collected for frAme5 is simply
Mazzy says, "It's a rather recursive thing.
It's been built and rebuilt largely out of itself and a wide range
of disparate influences. It's my best shot at considering some of
the aspects of online writing that interest me. Everything I write
which is displayed on a screen is in some senses collaborative, if only between myself and software of the
Mazzy says, "The Blind Tiler's Assistant is
a piece in three main parts which took over a year of elapsed time
to emerge in its present form. It was originally inspired by a
conversation about programming and writing in the Experimental Conference at the
Marvella shares a URL...
Brock says, "cool!!!!!"
Marvella says, "thanks, Michelle"
mezchinic says, "thx christy"
Deena watches the lovely images...
Brock says, "like a person being born..."
Sue says, "Mazzy it is a fascianting piece"
mezchinic says, "strange watching it here, and wonderful
Brock says, "slowly, coming together from disperate images"
Sue says, "and this mez is weird inside this window!"
Cleo says, "michelle, are you glaros?
unfortunately, i haven't had a chance to read it yet. it
looks very compelling indeed."
mezchinic says, "sure is sue:)"
Marvella says, "Fun, huh?"
Sue says, "love it!"
mezchinic says, "get ready for the quik clik;)"
Deena says, "maz, this is really a piece
that *can't* be done outside of this media. Do you thinkt hat the
ideas came first, or did many of the ideas emerge as you played
with the media?"
joelweishaus says, "I like the horizontal motion.""
Brock says, "An ad for Tide would kill this"
Sue says, "I darent clikc anything after last time"
Brock says, "an ad would kill this. period."
Marvella says, "Is Cleo still here?"
MichelleG [to Cleo]: "yes, I'm Glare-ass (as I've been told)!
Cleo says, "yes"
Brock says, "to find out whos in the moo click the "who" button at the
top of the screen"
Cleo says, "lol?"
margie says, "ah, have to go now--much fun
being here--thanks to trAce, Sue and Helen, dear Christy and all. Wonderful issue - great
work all around!"
Cleo says, "!"
Mazzy says, "Deena, very slowlythe story
came first as an analogy with prog & writing, it came back to
coding again later"
margie says, "til next time!"
The housekeeper arrives to cart Loki93c off to bed.
mezchinic says, "it was a great x.perience
workin on this, compared 2 the heavy textual resonances i use normally in
my email perf stuff..."
Deena says, "Thanks for coming Margie. "
Saada says, "I liked that very much,, Michelle but I wouldn't have looked at it if adverts
had danced across it"
_m goes home.
Deena says, "I think ads may well be what we
need to do to get the access to the works to many more people, and create
a stable community."
Brock says, "I'd salavate if i saw the code for this!"
Saada says, "Nevertheless Helen ads have a way of spreading."
Brock says, "the piece is faintly reminiscent of echer"
mezchinic says, "oops"
MichelleG says, "The cyberkidz are starting to circle. I'm afraid I need to
relinquish this machine."
Marvella says, "I may break your machines if
I keep adding all these together! My machine, anyway. Due for a
Everdeen says, "Helen, it seems here and to
me that 'name rights' is a reasonable trade-off for funding and not
Symbolic_Guest says, "@who"
joelweishaus says, "I have trouble saying goodbye, but I must
MichelleG waves farewell to joel as she too gets booted.
Helen says, "Everdeen, I absolutely agree, and much better than banner ads all
over the place"
Deena says, "THanks for coming Joel, this was fun"
Brock says, "do you know when the transcipt will be posted?"
mezchinic says, "cya joel, michelle"
Cleo says, "ads and the net are a big
problem because they must be on the same page, commercializing and
de-valuing the work/ it's integrity by confusing the issue. in mag's ads are on seperate pages - how to address this problem with
a tastefuland fair answer?".
Brock says, "bye"
Deena says, "I will get this up this week, if I can get your email, I'll tell you when
it is up..."
MichelleG has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove MichelleG.
Sue says, "i must go too"
Sue says, "thanks Deena and Helen for hosting this"
Deena says, "Good point Cleo. We don't HAVE to put ads on paintings, but
here we do..."
Helen says, "And sponsorship is something
that has worked for art for a long time, from ballet to Brit art
to net art"
Brock says, "deena: firstname.lastname@example.org"
Nicki says, "looks like we're all going. Thanks - it's been a good
Marvella says, "Loved being here today."
mezchinic says, "cya sue, take care:)"
Brock says, "thanks!"
Deena says, "THanks for coming SUe, it was greast."
Everdeen says, "Cleo, there are of course
the separate window pop-up ads....which are tied but not on the same
Sue says, "let me remind everyone that the next issue of frAme is looking
Saada says, "Thank you all for a most interesting evening"
Marvella shares a URL...
Brock says, "Thank you for allowing me to be part of your
Deena says, "Welcome Nicki... Thanks for coming"
mezchinic says, "bye nicki:0"
Symbolic_Guest says, "cheers sue"
Sue says, "net : spirit - spirituality, mind, magic"
Nicki says, "bye - see you again."
Sue says, "nice to meet you all"
Helen says, "Bye Nicki"
Mazzy says, "I'm sorry that Loki has gone because..."
Sue says, "and i'll see quite a few of you at DAC!"
Deena hands round parting glasses and thinks we covered a lot of
Deena says, "Yes, please come to DAC!"
Mazzy says, "his piece seemed very evocative of the info
overloads and doubts
that sometimes arise working online"
Nicki has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Nicki.
mezchinic says, "i might try and x.plore
loki's stuff, so if i disappear, thx christy 4 a great s.sue [as usual], and congrats all 4
Helen says, "A very lively conversation!"
Marvella shares a URL...
Deena nods, looking at the overloads
Cleo says, "yes, that's probably the best
answer thus far - but I close those windows before they even load usually- they
Sue says, "congratulations Christy and thanks to all of you"
Everdeen says, "Cleo me too, it's not so different from turning the
page in magazine"
Sue has disconnected.
Marvella says, "Thanks ,Sue, and thanks all for being here."
mezchinic has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove mezchinic.
Everdeen says, "thanks everyone"