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Chat Transcript: December 2nd 2001
frAme6: Net : Spirit

Sunday December 2nd (in LinguaMOO)
This transcript produced by Deena Larsen

Straight to log missing introduction

frAme6 is the 6th issue of trAce's Journal of Culture and Technology is now online. The theme for this issue is Net : Spirit. Includes work by Talan Memmott, Deena Larsen, Randy Adams, Eryk Salvaggio, Duc Thuan and Linda Carroli.

-- Eryk Salvaggio says, "Hello."
Talan Memmot arrives from Eliterature
Talan Memmot says, "Hello"
Talan Memmot has disconnected.
Sue says, "Hi Deena!"
Duc Thuan arrives.
Sue says, "Hi Duc Thuan"
Sue says, "That's a pretty name :)"
Duc Thuan says, "Thnx, Sue
Sue says, "Nice to meet you Thuan, I like your work very much"
Duc Thuan says, "I did it with my own imagination & aspiration"
Sue smiles.
Deena says, "Hi Sue,"
Sue says, "Hi Deena, how are you?"
Duc Thuan says, "How are u, today, Sue?"
Sue says, "Sorry about the chat room"
Deena says, "I can't log nor can I get to the trAce
Deena says, "Sorry about that..."
Sue says, "I will open a window to trAce
Deena says, "Things have been fun. I am at a hospital internet connection..my mother is very ill still.""
Sue says, "Deena I'm sorry your mother is ill"
Deena says, "Thanks Sue. And could I get the log from October? I'll edit it"
Deena says, "Hi Thuan! I liked your work:)"
Sue says, "Which log from October do you mean Deena?"
Duc Thuan says, "It's nice to meet Deena here, too"
Deena says, "I love how you use the color license. Beautifully apt."
Duc Thuan says, "Thnx Deena :-)"
Deena says, "Um, the one from the October chat we had in trAce that dealt with Sept 11. Need it to keep my logs complete."
Deena says, "I can edit this one, too, if you like"
Sue says, "Oh Deena sorry, I didn't realise you wanted that. It was a bit of a mess, that conversation. I'll look for the log."
Sue says, "I'd happily accept your offer to log this one"
Sue says, "I have it logging on the disk here"
Deena says, "Great. send me the log after and I'll edit. Don't promise it quick, mind, as life is weird right now. More weird than usual."
Sue says, "Poor Deena"
Deena says, "Yeah, I probably won't do much to the Oct one except post it."
Duc Thuan says, "Deena & Sue: where's everybody?"
Deena says, "Haven't been able to write much..."
Deena says, "Do you think they are at trAce or trying to get into trAce?"
Sue says, "Thuan people are often late and we are early!"
Duc Thuan says, "Hahaha"
Sue says, "I am watching it - only 4 there and one is on her way"
Jean arrives.
Sue says, "Jean, well done!"
Deena says, "Ahh... hope you get the technical difficulties straightened out."
Deena says, "How are you doing, Sue? Any neat projects in the works?"
Sue says, "We will - they changed the gateway and didn't change this port"
Sue says, "Deena we have just won a big grant. It will be in Wired this Tuesday""
Duc Thuan says, "What grant is it, Sue?"
Sue says, "It's an academic research grant..."
Duc Thuan says, "Oh"
Sue says, "And we'll be looking at the way writers move from print to web. This is the first academic recognition we have ever had."
Sue says, "Very exciting for us"
Duc Thuan says, "Congrats to all of you!"
Sue says, "Thanks!"
Sue bows gracefully.
Deena says, "Oh how WONDERFUL"
Sue says, "We'll be working with the novelist Kate Pullinger "
Sue says, "Another Canadian, Jean!"
Deena passes around grant cigars and ribbons and ticker tape
Sue lights her ticker tape and puffs at it
Deena says, "Cool, maybe we should do a chat on that..."
Jean says, "Hello"
Sue says, "Oh yes - but it won't start until March"
Deena says, "A chat in April or May then..."
Deena says, "Helen and I almost have the schedule for Jan-March worked out..."
Sue says, "Yes, she'll be coming to the ELO symposium in April 2002 with us"
Deena says, "Oh lovely-- can't wait to see you guys!!!"
Sue says, "Deena I know - you are so organised!"
Deena is laughing so hard at the idea that she is organized her papers on her desk far away fall to pieces
Sue smiles at Deena.
Sue says, "Where are you based Thuan?"
Duc Thuan says, "Sue, I'm a freelance writer/artist/programmer. I haven't involved in any academic grant yet."
Eryk Salvaggio arrives.
MazThing pops in.
Sue says, "Hi everyone"
Eryk Salvaggio says, "Hello Everyone. "
MazThing smiles at the assembled.
Duc Thuan says, "Hi Eryk..."
Eryk Salvaggio says, "This is trAce
Sue says, "Yes, we're just waiting for everyone to arrive"
oonaguest arrives.
Eryk Salvaggio says, "Excellent."
Sue says, "I am just rounding a few more people up"
Eryk Salvaggio says, "Okay."
][*.mez][ arrives.
Sue says, "Hi Mez"
][*.mez][ says, "Finally, helloh.ah!:)"
Sue says, "Once again, apologies all for the messing around with venues"
][*.mez][ says, "No prob.lem][ming][, Sue."
Eryk Salvaggio says, "No problem. As long as there is a link embedded in the html, it's pretty simple to find you :)"
MazThing greets mez
Duc Thuan says, "Hey, mez is here, hi mez..."
Sue says, "We are all everywhere!"
Tombell arrives.
Sue says, "Hi Tom"
Sue says, "We have a good group today!"
Duc Thuan says, "Sue, it's Ok."
Tombell says, "Hi all"
Eryk Salvaggio says, "Hello."
Sue says, "Still more coming"
][*.mez][ p][a][I][nts][xel.lates & strings big phat helloish .wavs 2 all:0)
Sue says, "I can see them in the courtyard"
Deena says, "Hi Tom, still thinking about moving to Colorado? Today, it is 9 below zero on the Farenheit scale. With the sun out."
Andrew Oldham arrives.
Deena says, "Hi mez!""
Sue says, "Hi Andrew"
Deena hands round brackets and punctuation and more strings for all
Deena says, "Hi Andrew"
Andrew Oldham says, "Hi all"
][*.mez][ says, "Yeah. ya deena, maz.][every][thing,][k][no][wn][ name;)"
][*.mez][ says, ":)"
MazThing greets Andrew {eventfully}
Dr. Dave arrives.
Deena hands round more names
msltoe arrives.
Sue says, "Well, I think I'll begin the introductions"
][*.mez][ says, "Any1 else have trouble getting here?"
msltoe says, "Hello all"
Sue says, "Sorry we are starting late, but here goes"
Sue says, "I'm very pleased to welcome some of the contributors to frAme6"
Deena runs around pinning nametags on while Sue introduces folks...
Sue says, "The Net:Spirit edition"
runran arrives.
oonaguest thanks Deena for nametag
Sue says, "We have some of the contributors here and maybe more who are
currently unrecognizable! I will ask you to intro yourselves in a minute."
Sue says, "But first I'd like to say something about this issue"
LW12 arrives.
Deena says, "Hi LW12 We are celebrating the new frAme6 issues of new media"
Sue says, "It was an important issue for us"
Sue says, "Very close to our hearts"
Sue says, "And we were fascinated by the work it brought in"
Sue says, "We hope you like it too and will enjoy spending some time with it"
Dr. Dave says, "Hello, LW12 and I are visitors from California"
LW12 says, "Thanks for the welcome--I'll check it out""
Sue says, "The contributors are as follows:"
Sue says, "(welcome LW12!)"
Sue says, "Randy Adams"
Sue says, "From Canada"
Sue says, "Linda Carroli from Oz"
Sue says, "Deena Larsen from the US"
Sue says, "Talan Memmot, also US"
Sue says, "Eryk Salvaggio and Duc Thuan - and without my notes I can't remember
where you are- can you tell us please?"
Eryk Salvaggio says, "I'm from the USA. Boston in particular. "
Sue says, "Thanks Eryk"
Sue says, "And I think Duc Thuan is in the US too?"
Deena throws Boston baked beans Eryk's way and hopes that he knows Mark Bernstein in Watertown...
][*.mez][ s][ilicon][mears a cong.rad][ical][ulatory layer of ][/m.bed.ded][
dust ova all the net:spirit.(contribu)t[.e.]urrs
Duc Thuan says, "Thuan ---- says, "From the US, also!"
Sue says, "Thanks!"
Duc Thuan says, "California"
Deena says, "Hi Everdeen, we are introducing the folks who contributed to frAme6."
][*.mez][ says, "EVD!!!!!!!!!!"
Sue says, "I'd like to begin by asking Duc Thuan about his piece - how did it come about?"
Sue says, "Thuan?"
oonaguest has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove oonaguest.
Sue says, "Maybe we have lost him..."
Deena says, "Duc, what I find interesting about your piece is that you need to scroll to get to the next bit...how does that relate to the spirit of the piece?"
Eryk Salvaggio says, "Duc seems to have reached cybernirvana. "


Sue says, "Ok perhaps we should go on to Eryk while Thuan gets sorted out"
Sue smiles.
Eryk Salvaggio says, "Hello. "
Sue says, ""Eryk - same easy question to you!"
Sue says, "How did you come to make your piece"
Feathers arrives.
Eryk Salvaggio says, "Aha. Well; the text was actually written for Hampshire college back in 98, where I was applying for admission. "
][*.mez][ says, "Did u get in?;)"
Sue says, "It still seems very contemporary"
Eryk Salvaggio says, "I didn't!"
][*.mez][ says, ":("
Duc Thuan says, "Well, as I use computer and software everyday... and especially the web, I encounter many feelings that the machine is not just mere
technical box...."
[*.mez][ says, "That's strange, as it's a fantastic text..... "
Eryk Salvaggio says, "Well, they asked me to write an essay comparing seemingly unrelated practices in art history. And my immediate practice in net.art at the time was ascii art; Vuk Cosic's work, and some other stuff being done with text. At the time, Meta and Antiorp were doing some experimentation over at the 7-11 list, so ascii was a hot topic, ironically."
Sue says, "Eryk I really enjoyed the essay and I wonder if you still agree with yourself?"
Sue says, "Would you rewrite Any part of it?"
Eryk Salvaggio says, "I rewrote the current version actually, for the sake of rhizome's publication. "
Sue says, "What kinds of changes did you make?"
Eryk Salvaggio says, "If I could rewrite it now, I might expand it a bit. There's a lot of ways code can serve as metaphor in eastern religion; not necessarily ascii. "
Eryk Salvaggio says, "Oh, I just made it a smoother read."


Sue says, "Duc Thuan ....You say you encounter people saying that the computer is not just a box...Echoing Eryk's thoughts about Zen.."
Sue says, "Can you expand on that?"
Duc Thuan says, "Sue, yes, that's why we see all kinds of humanized thing from our comp. For example, software licensure, readme note, technical modification notes..."
Duc Thuan says, "Deena, in my piece, the user/viewer/reader has to scroll down the end to get the next bit. The end is the beginning in our net spiritual
cycle..."
Deena says, "So, Duc, you are embodying cycles in the foreground and in the background, and the navigation--"
Deena says, "Duc, how do you see the software licensing and the background of your piece working to humanize our spirituality? or relationships with
computers?"
Duc Thuan says, "Deena, the licensing is already a metaphor for justice in our real life..."
Deena says, "Duc, how is licensing a metaphor for justice? are you talking about copyrights? or the rights to use a work?"
Duc Thuan says, "Deena, both of them.."
Duc Thuan says, "Sue & Deena, apologies for typing a little slowly here. I'm not a very good typist."
Sue says, "That's ok!"
Deena hands round her special edition of the hundred monkeys typing to get everyone's fingers loosened up.


Sue says, "Deena perhaps I can bring you in here"
Everdeen arrives.
Deena says, "Sure, Sue..."
Sue says, "Could you tell us about your piece?"
Deena says, "We can intertwine conversations..."
Sue says, "Yes that would be good"
Dr. Dave says, "Deena, your piece is really trippy"
Sue says, "I like the music in yours a lot!"
Deena says, "Carving in Possibilities is about adding and subtracting ideas--as you move around the image, you get bits of thoughts, and you carve out David's face along the way..."
Sue says, "V spooky"
LW12 arrives from Eliterature
Deena says, "Thanks, the music I found on http://www.flashkit.com. that is an AWESOME resource"
Dr. Dave says, "I THOUGHT that the face was getting more focused...but then I thought I was only noticing it more"
Dr. Dave says, "Really really cool."
Deena says, "Thanks Dr. Dave! blush..."
Dr. Dave says, "I'm going to show this to my "Teaching Writing with Technology" class...."
Sue says, "Can I ask you about the sounds?"
Deena says, "It is my first time adding sound, actually. Now I want to do more with flash..."
Sue says, "The kind of bullet sounds?"
Deena says, "Yeah, I wanted to echo both the carving--hitting the stone to reveal the face or hitting the thought to reveal one more facet of the spirituality. I also wanted it to echo footsteps of people walking by the finished David"
Dr. Dave says, "It made me think of Westminster Abbey...."
Dr. Dave says, "And since my name is David, I felt kind of spookily addressed...."
Deena assures Dr. Dave that that was intentional and sends more shivers down his spine
Deena says, "I wanted to show the David myth from all angles, and get across the idea that if you could see every facet, you would have a three dimensional
artwork, a knowing.I keep likening print linear writing to painting, and new media writing to sculpture as we bring in more dimensions, and thought I had better prove my point."
Sue says, "Will you do more like this Deena now you are working in flash?"
Deena says, "Sue, I want to. I have two other flash pieces coming out this
year--E:Electron In Blue Moon Review (October 2001) and (Intruder in New River 6, 2001)


Dr. Dave says, "Can I ask?: how did you all get together to do this piece? Did you meet each other online?"
Sue says, "Dr. Dave we sent out a call for contributions"
Sue says, "For our journal frAme6"
Sue says, "Then we edited it together"


Sue says, "Can I introduce Randy Adams, aka Runran"
Sue says, "I have just found him lurking in the shadows"
runran says, "I'm not lurkin', just lost in mooland"
Sue smiles.
Deena says, "Hi Randy!"
Deena shines a spotlight on Randy Adams"
Sue says, "Randy you have some portraits in frAme6. Can you tell us more about them?"
runran says, "They are images created from found 'objects', continuing a theme I pursued in rl. I am fascinated with creating things from found objects and working with mixed media"
Deena says, "Randy, how did you choose your photographs?"
runran says, "Browsing with google using keyword searches"
Deena says, "Why did you choose the ones you did? What were your criteria, Randy?"
runran says, "Visual concerns, emotional too"
MazThing says, "Randy, I liked the play in the title "Beings Online"...the idea that the things themselves are, sort of, marks of existence..."
Eryk Salvaggio says, "Randy, a few years ago I created a work called "The God Project" which searched image databases using the word "God, -religion,
-politics, -human". It seems like a good compliment to yours. "
runran says, "And, as usual in my work, there is the element of play [ing]"
runran says, "I seem to remember it, Eryk"

Deena says, "Eryk, I like your idea of kanji as character art. have you thought about putting an art piece together"
Eryk Salvaggio says, "Using Kanji?"
Deena says, "Eryk, I am really interested in how kanji words embody the idea--the picto-graph...have you thought about doing some art work to bring out
the meaning inherent in the kanji?""
Eryk Salvaggio says, "I did some work based on altering weather maps to mirror organic life forms, and applied some random kanji characters to it merely for decorative purposes. But otherwise, I am mostly still interested in ascii and code as metaphor. I like what Duc says about the box being more than machine. What's interesting is, the physical space a box occupies is nothing compared to the virtual space. There's this element of surfaces and space that applies pretty heavily across religious visions all across the board. ""
Deena says, "Yeah, what is fun is that the MEANING occupies the visual space""

linda.c arrives.
Sue says, "Hi Linda - glad you could make it!"
linda.c says, "Hi Sue. hope I'm not late. daylight saving always confuses me."
Sue says, "What time is it with you Linda?"

linda.c says, "Time here is 7.30am"
LW12 has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove LW12.
Dr. Dave says, "Linda c., where are you that it's 7:30 am? (not that it's 1:30 pm in California?"
linda.c says, "Brisbane, Australia"
][*.mez][ says, "Hey Linda, its more reasonable in Sydney......8.40 am:)"
Dr. Dave says, "Thanks...cool...I love it that we're from all over."
Sue says, "Now I'd like to welcome another contributor - Linda Carroli"
Deena says, "Linda, I liked the idea of egonomica, contrasted with the simple rope navigation. Neat."
Sue says, "Linda made a doityourself religion for frAme6"
linda.c says, "Thanks. it's about as far as my web authoring goes at this stage."

runran says, "And machine parts, like schematic diagram of the original phone,
layered over the image of an older woman"
Deena says, "Egonomics. Could you explain where you got that term?""
linda.c says, "It's a neologism from faith popcorn, the market predictor."
Deena says, "Linda, having the visual navigation helps a lot to anchor us and to see where things fit..."
Deena hands round playbooks


Jean says, "Randy, I like the playfulness of your Interiors back on the coffee table"
Deena hands round nice hot cups of coffee for the coffee table
Sue says, "Where is the meeting ground, do you think?"
Eryk Salvaggio says, "Neat! I basically just put forward every image that came across, without any editorial decisions. I had an archive of about 300 before
the site got hacked."
Deena says, "Eryk, how did your site get hacked?"
Eryk Salvaggio says, "The site got hacked back in 1999. My billing admin was jealous of a girl I was seeing. Very stupid stuff. He managed to cancel the
account, as well as ftp into my home server and infect it with a virus. Bad news all around. "
Deena says, "Ahh...the real world intrudes on the net"runran says, "Jean: the colours lend the images a sense of cheerfulness amid the decay"
Deena says, "Randy, it is interesting to juxtapose your colors with Duc's"
Jean says, "Cheerful decay -- album title!"
Feathers says, "Eryk, that makes me think of the biblical babel"


Sue says, "I am curious to know whether anyone recognises similarities and differences in all these pieces"
Deena says, "Sue, I think we are all equating spirituality on some level to spatiality--to spatial metaphors."
Sue says, "That's an interesting point Deena can you say more?"
Deena says, "I think each piece too concentrates on the visual metaphors for spatiality, the fragments, the text backdrops, the pictures"
Eryk Salvaggio says, "I agree about spatiality. In what I've read of spiritual thought over the past few hundreds of years, we see this idea of the ether,
dreamworlds, mirrors- a behind the surface existence of a "Deeper "And impenetrable nature. "
runran says, "Eryk, that would make a great web narrative ;-)"
Eryk Salvaggio says, "Haha."


linda.c says, "Sue, when I first looked at the pieces, I did think that there were strong similarities. especially in trying to locate the spiritual ... and
positions oneself in relation ... "
Deena says, "Do these pieces have ties with a deeper movement toward spirituality and exploration on the web?"
Sue says, "In the past we used spirituality to try to interpret the flesh world -- are we now doing the same with the virtual world?"
Sue says, "Are we hoping to find answers?"
Duc Thuan says, "Sue, yep, why not? :-)"
Deena says, "Yes, I think we are hoping to find answers, or at least to raise the questions differently. We know the answer, 42. We just don't know how to
phrase the questions..."
Sue smiles.
Duc Thuan says, "Deena, can you elaborate it a bit?"
Deena hands round extra copies of the Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy and begs everyone not to panic
Dr. Dave says, "Lol"
Sue says, "Good ole Douglas D"
DrDave says, "May he rip"
Eryk Salvaggio says, "Right on. Interestingly, that was part of my project. "
Deena says, "You know, most of our stuff has a strong Borgesian thread running through it...the Borgesian fascination with infinity, with mirrored places, with arguments that incorporate the imagination..."
Eryk Salvaggio says, "I asked google, "What is the question?""
Dr. Dave says, "Google should know"
Eryk Salvaggio says, "I assumed a collective embodiment of human consciousness like the net might be able to tell us. "
Dr. Dave says, "It said?"
Sue says, "What did it tell you?"
MazThing has just been interviewed this evening about Cybertopias...and my answer was that I don't believe in Utopias online or off....they are just
different environments with their own problems.
Dr. Dave says, "Google as oracle"
Eryk Salvaggio says, "I think it said something about installing glass. "
Sue says, "Last year for April fool google announced that you didn't need to put in your query anymore - it would find the answer psychically"
Sue says, "Didn't work though ;)"
Eryk Salvaggio says, "Oh, what's interesting is, just now I asked google. And the first article it linked me to was about child care. But this is still what
it had to say: "In one sense, the key question is always the same: "What is your aim?"Without this, no other question is meaningful. In another sense,
the key question is the one which no one else has thought to ask. There may be no "Right"Question in an absolute sense. But improving the question is far
more important than improving the answer.""
Deena thinks all of the answers and they come into her head poof! just like that.
Deena shakes her head in wonderment and they all leave again.


Tombell says, "Is the spiritual always separate?"
Sue says, "Great question Tom"
Sue says, "I think we tend to hope it IS separate"
linda.c says, "By separate, do you mean separate sphere? or space?"
Sue says, "Separate from the flesh, more immortal, that seems to be what people want"
Deena says, "No, I think it is integral to everything we do, which is why my piece Carving works the way it does... You see thoughts in a space and they stay
there, but they are juxtaposed in different ways as you move the mouse. This is an integral movement, and I wanted it to say something about the way spirituality is embodied in our spaces, in our beings"
Tombell says, "No, I mean why are we talking about the spiritual? it is already part of what we do?"
Sue says, "Do you think the net enables psychic abilities? Have strange things happened to you online, anyone?"
Deena says, "Oh yeah, I have felt more telepathic in some of these chats than anywhere else--like I could FEEL the wavelength"

Dr. Dave says, "Deena: I felt like the words were like thoughts, independent of one another, as I "walked " around David."
Sue says, "Yes Deena me too"
Deena says, "Thanks Dr. Dave, this is what I wanted to have happen. I wanted a 3d space of words, of lit where you walk around it to see different angles..."
Dr. Dave says, "There is no way that should be"my yoga instructor likes to say."
Deena says, "So you associate the thoughts, then Dr. Dave? yeah, I feel much better--cause that is the authorial intention--what I wanted to have happen. To
associate thoughts from the crowd watching David, the stone itself, David, Michelangelo, and modern observers..."
Dr. Dave says, "This is what it's like to walk around a statue, for me."
Dr. Dave says, "The "chinking" sound adds another thing, however...."
Deena says, "Hmmm.. the chinking is designed to show you are carving the statue, you are creating/interacting with the piece
Dr. Dave says, "There is such nice freedom in walking around a statute, but you know it's maximally intersubjective."
Dr. Dave says, "They are your thoughts and it's great to have them like this, in no order, but you know it's happening to others too..."
Dr. Dave says, "I think other walkers/observers are probably letting their thoughts "happen" in this same way. Not the same thoughts/memories/associations, of course, but the walking....chinking...thinking...imagiing..."
Deena says, "Well, that reflects my experiences when I interact with statues. I let my associations and memories just happen--I guess no one's experience of a statue is the same, either..."
Deena says, "Dr. Dave, all of us interject our own thoughts when we read, circle a statue, look at a painting. it is that intersubjectivity, that interaction...
hmmmmmmm"
Dr. Dave says, "Yes I think it is""


Deena says, "How has this psychic, this spirituality on the net helped us ask the right questions?"
Dr. Dave says, "I think associationally..."
Deena says, "In a way, just communicating online or though the radio is psychic. I mean, here we are, exchanging thoughts, with no wires, no physical
connections between us, and we are spread out all over the world right now..."
MazThing says, "Deena...is it necessary to mystify the communication though?"
Sue says, "Deena I like the notion of 'we are spread out' as if we are a single entity"
linda.c says, "I'm interested in this idea of asking questions - of inquirying - because the psychic and spiritual have faith at their core ... I mean faith
as some kind of acceptance rather than a question."
MazThing says, "We are communicating, we are connected, that is wonderful...yes, but psychic? no...."
Dr. Dave says, "Maz has a good question"
Eryk Salvaggio says, "You're right Deena. Part of me wonders why there still isn't a group of die hards against the radio. It may as well be considered
channeling. "
Everdeen says, "Most hams I know are exceeding practical in their approach to communication."
Sue says, "Linda and MazThing---"
Sue says, "Faith vs. science?"
linda.c says, "Oh dear. we've fallen into a binarism. "
Deena says, "What binarism, Linda?"
linda.c says, "Faith/science. sorry bad joke."
MazThing smiles at linda.c and means not to negate...but to append to a way of viewing this
Deena says, "Linda, you address faith/science/consumerism in your piece. Could you say more about that?"
linda.c says, "Religion isn't about atoning for one's sins, as it has been but about seeking meaning - the way so many people are adopting Buddhism"

Eryk Salvaggio says, "I noticed during the sept 11th events that the people in the planes were using cell phones to communicate to loved ones. And it dawned on me that, in the past, what one would have done it that situation would be prayer. "
Deena says, "Maz, yeah, it is a mystfying connection. It is magic because I can't explain in physics how my words are reaching your screen. Nor when I talk
over the radio or telephone, how my voice reaches you... "

MazThing says, "But it can BE discovered and explained if necessary in terms of protocols Deena, physical connections"
Deena says, "Eryk, yeah, we can talk and we take it for granted. cell phones are now a form of prayer."
Everdeen says, "Deena, that may be one of the great differences between
internet users and hams...to become a ham one must be licensed and have an
understanding of the equipment, etc-ktl."
Sue says, "Deena you cant explain but someone else can"
MazThing says, "I'm not saying it needs to be explained away....nor that it isn't wonderful"

][*.mez][ b.gins 2 spin a s l o w][eave][ of physi.c.auled n.tent, a psych][tr][ic][kle][al fluid all.igning, a bag of net.wurked bones & act][1 scene 2][(d)ual g][primary][hosts....
Deena says, "Yeah, so to someone who can explain it, it may not be mystic. But the movement of one electron to another aTom is something none of us can ever see, so it is still mystic, still a matter of faith on some level"
Eryk Salvaggio says, "It makes me wonder if religion was just what people did before we had an internet. "
Everdeen says, "Whether one believes or not....the electron still moves"
Sue says, "As for me, I enjoy the power of connectedness - a strong feeling -- but I am reluctant for it to lead to Any kind of final knowledge - not that it ever will!"


Dr. Dave says, "The radio is just the radio...until you listen to Van Morrison celebrating what the radio does for him...""
][*.mez][ ][game evolves in2][most][graphics][icks.tocks
Dr. Dave says, "That's mystification, in a good sense, I think""
Dr. Dave says, "Van is the greatest..." and smiles.
Everdeen says, "The radio is more than broadcast radio"
linda.c says, "I suppose with regard to religion, there's a strong move towards
buying/doing what makes you feel good."
Deena hands mez some mystic stocks and socks and tic-tocks
][*.mez][ moni.tor][as & bibles & korans][ d.elves ][& w(h)I(t)ches][


Sue says, "In my introduction to frAme6 I ask two questions.1. how has the web changed us?"
Sue says, "And 2. now that we are wired, can we be unwired? Can there be a post-internet internet?"
Sue says, "In other words has our sensibility really altered?"
Eryk Salvaggio says, "That's a good question. But I don't think it has; I think we just altered what our sensibilities relate to. "
linda.c says, "They're great questions Sue."
MazThing doesn't ever want to be disconnected from the possibilities that the internet has brought about.
Deena says, "Sue, I think our sensibility really altered. Most of my friends are online, people I have met maybe once at a conference. I could never have
the community of writers, of understanders that I have online. Moreover, it changes my sense and definition of space and place. I can be with you now, and I am also at a hospital where people are dying, crying, being born, being bored. I am in two totally different physical/mental places"
Dr. Dave says, "I think so...even books look different to me now"
][*.mez][ post.lingu.all.s & re][ligious][.m][y millenium][otes
Sue says, "We've built these connections - what would happen if it all stopped. Tomorrow, no more web?"
Deena says, ""
Eryk Salvaggio says, "But Deena, wasn't that the function of a church? "
Deena says, "I could not do that without the web. not even in a conference
call..."
][*.mez][ ][dot][com.moons, re.threads, con.necks][n moaning throats][
Eryk Salvaggio says, "And meditation; and a whole bunch of religious practices."
runran says, "I have to run now, setting up a gallery in rl today -- bios, labels, etc -- much different energy than virtual gallery, nice connectedness
with fleshy people and handling physical artefacts -- anyway, see yuh all"
Eryk Salvaggio says, "See you. "
Sue says, "Bye randy thanks for coming"
Deena builds a church online complete with a huge rose stained glass window and gargoyles
The housekeeper arrives to remove runran.
Sue says, "We have about 5 minutes left"
][*.mez][ says, "Bye randy:) great wurk:)"
Dr. Dave says, "I'm happy here "Listening"To you all but I'm also starving--skipped lunch because this is so interesting. Now I have to leave
this virtual thing and go get real: eat."
MazThing says, "Sue...I think that many of the connections built would remain, because they are real, they are people with people but......it would be harder
to forge those anew and to organise exchanges"


Sue says, "How can we sum up?"
Eryk Salvaggio says, "The idea was that we would connect with a larger body through god; now we connect through a larger body called bandwidth. "
Deena says, "The net has opened up new vistas to explore and ask questions in a different way. We are asking questions and answering them about spirituality as it is an integral part of who we are. "
][*.mez][ ][gar.g][oyles the mystic ma.][& godened][chines.....
Sue says, "I would like to revisit this in 5 years time"
Deena says, "We are connecting through bandwidth and talking to each other in new and mystic ways that may not be possible in real life, yet we are also
maintaining our real life holds and questions and connections."
Deena carves mez
Sue says, "And see if it all seems like old hat and naive or if something has grown bigger"
Dr. Dave says, "In service of summary: let me say that 1) I just tripped upon your conversation today but 2) it's been a pleasure and a privilege to talk
with you all. And to learn about your journal and your pieces...Thank you!"
Deena carves mez face onto a chiming gargoyle that guards the window of ST. Augustine
Sue says, "Please stay in touch!"
Eryk Salvaggio says, "Thanks for reading them Dr. Dave. "
Eryk Salvaggio says, "Viewing, looking, etc. "
][*.mez][ freezes in2 s][tone][pace
Sue says, "I would like to thank you all for coming"
Deena says, "Thanks for reading Dr. Dave. Please come back. Schedule is at http://www.eliterature.org/com/index.shtml"
][*.mez][ says, "Thx 2 u 2 Sue, & all the contributors"
Eryk Salvaggio says, "Thanks for the invitation. It was a good thing to be a part of. "
Dr. Dave says, "Cheers, all. See you again sometime."
Sue says, "And for providing some very thought provoking work"
Duc Thuan says, "Eryk, so bandwidth is kind of God.ne[ss]t"
linda.c says, "Thanks for the opportunity to talk. :-)"
Everdeen wraps ][*.mez][ in electric blanket with telepathic controls
Sue says, "Now we have formally ended but can go on as long as you like!"
Eryk Salvaggio says, "You could say that "
Jean says, "Thanks for the swirl of thought! Bye now!"
Eryk Salvaggio says, "Okay. "
Eryk Salvaggio says, "Cheers!"
Sue says, "Bye Jean"
MazThing thanks contributors for much interesting viewing and reading some of which she is still looking to explore
Talan Memmot arrives.
][*.mez][ shrinks in2 a ][pre][d.fined gap, & pre.pairs 2 d.volute.....
Deena says, "That was fun!"
][*.mez][ says, "Cya all."
linda.c says, "Ciao "
Everdeen says, "Thanks....bye"
Sue says, "Good to see you Linda"
Deena says, "Hi Talan! Was that REALLY your picture in the Korean arts?"
Duc Thuan says, "Bye everyone...."
linda.c has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Linda.c
Sue says, "And everyone else"
Dr. Dave leaves for Eliterature
Everdeen goes home.
Sue says, "Is Talan Memmot here?"
Feathers says, "Squawking and flapping: bye all!"
Deena says, "Yep, he just came in the door as we were leaving..."
Tala Maimed says, "Nah... not my picture..."
Deena says, "Hi feathers, thanks:)"
Jean has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Jean.
Sue says, "Oh hi talan!"
DrDave arrives from Eliterature
Duc Thuan says, "Thnx everyone for coming..."
Sue says, "I thought you didn't make it"


The housekeeper arrives to remove Feathers.
][*.mez][ says, "Heya t, was just a bout 2 flip=flop out of ][et][her.e..."
LW12 has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove LW12.
Dr. Dave has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Dr. Dave.
Talan Memmot says, "Power was out -- story my"
Deena says, "But that was a pretty cool set up:)"
Sue says, "Talan you will HAVE to shave your head now"
Deena says, "Bummer..."
Talan Memmot says, "I used to shave the noggin..."
Sue says, "Shame you missed that - good talk"
Deena says, "We'll have it on the archive."
Deena says, "Went pretty fast..."
][*.mez][ says, "Sue, 4 1nce I managed 2 sit back & ab.sorb rather than prattle
on:)"
Sue says, "Well I would like to hear Tala's thoughts"
Sue says, "Mez you are a star :)"
Michael B arrives from Courtyard
Duc Thuan says, "Talan, in SJ, the power was back at 9am this morning "
Deena says, "Mez, I like your prattling..."
][*.mez][ says, ":)"
Michael B says, "Hello all""
Deena says, "Are you Californians having blackouts again?"
Sue says, "Is the weather really bad where you are?"
Talan Memmot says, "Power on and off 3 times today..."
MazThing says, "Hi Mike"
][*.mez][ says, "Sh*t, that's bad"
Michael B says, "Hi Maz "
Deena says, "Hi Michael, we were just closing up shop when Tala and you arrived."
Talan Memmot says, "Weather is bad -- but I think I am on a crappy grid,,,"
Eryk Salvaggio says, "I am off everyone. Thanks for the conversation all. "
][*.mez][ says, "Cya Eryk"
Deena says, "Wow. We hadn't heard more about the power blackouts here..."
Duc Thuan says, "Deena, there was storm yesterday."
Eryk Salvaggio says, "It was interesting stuff. Great issue!"
Sue says, "Thanks for coming Eryk - stay in touch"
Michael B says, "I was having a bath..what's happening? "
Deena says, "Ahh...we missed that storm in Colorado.."
Eryk Salvaggio says, "You too. adios. + thanks!"
Sue says, "We're just closing up mike"
Eryk Salvaggio has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Eryk Salvaggio.
Deena says, "We are chatting and unwinding after an intense talk."
Sue says, "I have to go too"
Michael B says, "Oops...bathing? a dubious activity ? "
Sue says, "Work to do for Tomorrow"
Deena says, "Logs and schedule will be up at
http://www.eliterature.org/com/index.shtml"
MazThing laughs. "It's the trAce
Michael B says, "Not very tech is it? "
Sue says, "Take care all of you - thanks for coming"
Sue says, "Deena I will send you the log"
Talan Memmot has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Talan Memmot.
Deena says, "Yeah, I need to go too...Talan, Congrats on the Korean website and
I hope your computer is ok"
Deena says, "Thanks Sue :)"
Deena has disconnected.
Sue says, "Mez no probs - just let us know"
Michael B says, "So much for spirituality "
Sue says, "Yeah you missed it mike!"
][*.mez][ says, "Ok, later all."
][*.mez][ says, "Take care"
Michael B says, "I'm sure "
Sue says, "Goodnight everyone and thanks for coming "
][*.mez][ has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove ][*.mez][.
Sue waves.
Sue has disconnected.
Michael B says, "I was reading the bible last night "
Duc Thuan says, "I have to run for lunch. Thanx Sue, Deena, and Mez. Best wishes
to you all..."
MazThing says, "I could do my own spiritual party piece if you like Mike?"
Simon M arrives.
Michael B says, "I was reading the bible last night "
Michael B says, "Yes maz "
MazThing says, "Hi Simon..."
MazThing says, "Mills....I presume?"
MazThing ponders whether she should and then 'what the hells'
Michael B says, "What is your view of spirituality in the post-modern age? "
MazThing kneels.
Simon M says, "Hi, my apologies for lateness""
MazThing says Mass.
Michael B "Amen"
balagan: the appearance of mass is in fact mass
clamjam: gathering momentum of habitual responses pushes me beyond touched to
crazed
clamjam: it weighs heavy with me, a coagulating crowd, a fake litany of lies
breasted and hipped
balagan: You explained colours moderate and I misheard 'modulate'
Michael B says, " "Bananas"
MazThing stands and smiles.
Duc Thuan has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Duc Thuan.
Michael B says, "Bye "
Simon M says, "Had a hectic weekend!""
Michael B says, "Banana "
Michael B says, "I was in the lakes district "
MazThing says, "Pity you missed it, Simon, frAme6 was well received by the
attendees"
Simon M says, "Oh, good, it's a pleasure to work on it""
Michael B says, "How are you maz "
MazThing says, "Are you involved in Any future trAce
freelance thing?"
MazThing says, "Mike, I'm fine...I am, much as you suggest, still completely
bananas"
Simon M says, "At the mo I do the odd freelance thing""
MazThing says, "How's the course going, Mike?"
MazThing nods at Simon M.
Michael B says, "I wasn't referring to you "
MazThing laughs. "You might as well have been."
The housekeeper arrives to cart Deena off to bed.
Michael B says, "It's going "
MazThing nods.
Simon M says, "What course a re you doing?""
Michael B says, "Well I had some house keeeping to sort out "
MazThing says, "I'm glad to see the 'Event' is going ahead too"
MazThing should nip off in a minute actually
Michael B says, "Whether I'm onthe course in 2002 or not I 'm still writing my
book 2002 "
MazThing smiles at Michael B.
Michael B says, "Academic ahls "
MazThing says, "Good luck"
Michael B says, "A-holes ......"
Michael B says, "Thanks "
Michael B says, "Maz"
MazThing laughs and waves.
Michael B says, "Mike waves"
MazThing melts away.

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