--
Start log: Sunday, March 18, 2001 2:18:45 pm CST
Scott
Rettberg says, "Well, thanks to everyone for joining in this chat,
especially Amy for filling in on such short notice."
Deena
passes around coffee and coffeecakes
Jeffrey
says, "Commencons-nous?"
Deena
says, "Sure, let the fun begin."
Scott
Rettberg says, "Allons-y"
Scott
Rettberg says, "Maybe we should start out by letting each guest
introduce themselves, their companies, and their interest in publishing
interactive literary content. We have quite a group here that
I think represents both a great deal of history and a great deal
of promise for the future of electronic publishing."
Scott
Rettberg says, "Since this is a MOO, everyone can introduce
themselves at once."
Deena
hands round more coffee and listens for the introductions
Jeffrey
says, "I'm Jeff Ballowe. I'm with ELO, serve on the board of a
few Internet companies, and am learning to play piano."
MazThing
is Mazzy, or Pauline Masurel, a writer.
Deena
is Deena Larsen, a writer and chat host
Deena
says, "You can see links for our guest speakers on the right hand
side."
pbm
is a web developer & writer, work at networkninja.com in Chicago.
Laurie
says, "Laurie Morgan here. I'm CEO of a startup called Digital
Stories. We are an early stage company; we are building tools
to both distribute and create various forms of electronic content
(and non-electronic), from the simple text-only ebooks the trade
publishers are currently providing to more useful, interactive,
fun books that genuinely benefit from and take advantage of technology
(this would be the good stuff)"
Bernstein
says, "I'm Mark Bernstein, from Eastgate. Also on the ELO board.
We write new hypertext tools and publish hypertexts. We've been
doing this since 1982. We just shipped a brand-new Storyspace."
Deena
says, "No problem, we are just starting. As Scott said, please
introduce yourselves and let us know your interests in new media,
business, the internet, etc. :"
Amy
says, "Hi. I'm Amy Eisner, of Night Kitchen. Our software, TK3
Author and TK3 Reader, lets authors and artists make their own
ebooks. People are really making beautiful things with it. I've
even been experimenting with electronic poetry myself. To address
one of Scott & Deena's topics, we think that epublishing will
begin to matter when there are more people engaged in making the
stuff."
Deena
says, "What are the business models that you see on the web and
for new media?"
Jeffrey
says, "My guess is that the best business model for writers of
e-lit (work made explicitly for an interactive medium) will be
by publishing it via a peer-to-peer network that allows for secure
payments to be made by the downloader."
Deena
says, "Amy, how do we get more people engaged?"
Amy
says, "Sorry didn't mean to interrupt there Deena."
Deena
says, "No problem,. this is really a free for all, just come on
in :)"
Deena
hands out juggling balls for the conversations.
MazThing
takes four and thanks Deena.
Laurie
says, "That's interesting, Jeff. We take more of a magazine-like
view of things here. We think it's pretty important to find the
audiences that are "Ready," and deliver them things that
they are ready for."
Laurie
says, "So, the role of the publisher would still be important
in helping to find that audience. But, it's a different kind of
role than in the 'traditional' world."
Deena
says, "Laurie, what are ways we find these audiences?"
Laurie
says, "Well, these are the things we are working on. One
way is to aggregate them through other online media."
Deena
says, "Jeff, could you say more about the peer to peer?"
Jeffrey
says, "Right now, the best way to advertise is to exchange
links with each other, because only a few kinds of readers are
really interested now. to do the real work of building a larger
audience will take an investment by a few publishers and or a
group like ELO. peer-to-peer is an insiders game also, but one
that benefits from the viral effects of the Web."
Diane
Greco says, "Laurie, could you say a bit about how you see the
difference?"
Laurie
says, "I think you are right that building a larger audience is
"Real work" -- we are aiming at communities that we believe
are ready, and/or have a natural tendency to aggregate."
Laurie
says, "Or, are unbiased"
Deena
says, "How do you aggregate groups on the web?"
Scott
Rettberg says, "A lot of what we talk about at ELO deals
with audience 'creation' as much as it does finding the audience.
With a lot of the e-lit stuff, even though its antecedents have
been around for at least a decade now, people are still easily
confused by the concept. There's a huge process of educating the
potential market."
Laurie
says, "For example, we have a site in the works called ModernLit,
which is aimed at 20somethings. They're highly wired, use lots
of media, and like to try new things."
Deena
says, "How do we educate the market? Could we use ModernLit to
help with this education?"
Laurie
says, "We aggregate them based on their common interests
in reading -- using traditional media as part of the appeal --
and, permit them to try non-traditional things. For example, we
have an interactive "Choose-your-adventure" book in the works,
and an epistolary novel in multimedia."
Scott
Rettberg says, "That's an interesting way of thinking, bridging
over from known quantities to new ones."
Deena
says, "Jeff, I'd like to go back to the viral effects of the web.
Can we use these to build audiences? How?"
Amy
says, "In terms of finding an audience, one place to start is
the bookstores. TK3 Author really expands the idea of what an
ebook is."
Diane
Greco says, "Amy, you see TK3 in bookstores?? How?"
Deena
says, "How does TK3 work to bridge from booksotres?"
Scott
Rettberg says, "Mark and Diane, could you describe a little bit
about the way that Eastgate has built its audience for hypertext
over time?"
John
McDaid arrives.
Deena
says, "Hi John, we are talking about ways to build audiences for
hypertext and build markets."
Deena
says, "How do we get our work to these audiences?"
McDaid
says, "Tnx Deena, Hi all"
Sue
says, "How many people here read the article in Wired
News about Talan's winning the trAce
Alt-X new media competition? It raised the question about
why people aren't looking at that kind of work."
Bernstein
says, "It seems to me that people ARE looking at hypertext
fiction, whatever Wired might believe."
Sue
says, "Mark, their point was that the press was ignoring it."
Bernstein
says, "Look at the number of literature courses that teach it.
Look at the amount of press we do get."
Sue
says, "Mark, so the Wired article was wrong, in your opinion?
That's worth saying."
Bernstein
says, "For example, the last JODI
contains a long and thoughtful discussion of UNCLE
BUDDY'S PHANTOM FUNHOUSE and KING
OF SPACE, by McDaid and Smith respectively. Both old, none
of them best sellers. Just because they're great."
Editor's note: JoDI is a subscription
based web journal.
Scott
Rettberg says, "I'd say the Wired article is just a blip. A lot
of media outlets haven't figured out how to cover this stuff.
the NYTimes is another example where some work needs to be done."
Diane
Greco says, "Amy, that's great...I'm wondering how you're going
to manage distribution, though. Ingram will pick it up? Or??"
Deena
says, "How are the TK3 books marketed in bookstore?"
Scott
Rettberg says, "Not that it would be wise to think of bookstores
as the primary means of distribution."
Jeffrey
says, "It takes a publisher to really make this work. Not
just to "aggregate the audience" but to help the writer bring
a good product to market. The editorial value add of publishers
won't go away (I hope). Peer-to-peer is just a cheap distribution
method that allows work to reside on all the computers that make
up the One Computer that is the Web. It also gives individuals
a proprietary feeling with the work that increases the word of
mouth (or email, or instant messenger, whatever): the virus."
Deena
says, "Jeff, how do publishers work in the web environment?"
Jeffrey
says, "Same as always. They choose, edit and promote. The
last being maybe the most important."
Deena
says, "How do we increase the literature courses, and get works
in bookstores?"
Amy
says, "Diane, yes, we're working to get TK3 books into bookstores.
TK3 Author really handles an amazing variety of expression. So
we see a spectrum from the traditional book in digital form to
works that involve hypertext and embedded video and really looks
nothing like a book. But it can be bought like a book."
Amy
says, "Diane, we're in discussions with online bookstores and
others that need to be in the picture to get TK3 books out there."
Deena
says, "How do we promote on the web?"
Jeffrey
says, "By not limiting it to the web. Publishers need (as
do groups like ELO)
to promote all over the place. we're trying to get the awards
ceremony on TV for instance."
Amy
says, "I think authorship is also key."
Bernstein
says, "Amy -- will bookstores (meaning Barnes
& Noble and Borders)
forgive the CD meltdown?"
Diane
Greco says, "Ah, gotcha, Amy. Brick & mortar might be a harder
sell, that's just my intuition, though."
Deena
says, "Good point. I think we need to show thaty hypertexts are
being reading the world outside the web."
Scott
Rettberg says, ""Hey I thought we weren't supposed to mention
that."
Deena
gives leave to mention anything and everything...then wonders
what she may have stasrted...
dglen
says, "In Texas recently, Mark has made the suggestion (following
Jason Epstein ) that epublishing may follow cottage industry statistics
for some time--after all, smarter works appeal to smaller audiences,
right?"
Diane
Greco says, "Not that small, I hope."
Bernstein
says, "WOOPS. I didn't say 'FOR SOME TIME". Epstein argues (and
I agree) that publishing is inherently a small-scale business."
Deena
says, "Sounds like we need to educate the pr4ss, how do we get
mainstream ress articles to see what is going on?"
Jeffrey
says, "Only as long as the audience is small will cottage
work. Scale is a natural effect of success (and without it a cause
of failure)"
Scott
Rettberg says, "I don't doubt that the more "E" e-lit will
have a smaller audience than things like e-books with a tom clancly
interview. But there's small and then there's small."
Deena
says, "Could you talk more about the scale of audiences, Jeff?"
Bernstein
says, "Publishing has always been a comparatively small business.
Epstein (who helped make it a big one) argues that the natural
scale is small, and that publishers will likely return to a smaller
scale of organization -- *not* audience."
Diane
Greco says, "Not sure I follow, Scott. I think you mean, there's
small and then there's invisible?"
Deena
says, "Yet even literary books have visibiltiy, how do we get
visibility for new media?"
Sue
says, "Mark, I agree."
Jeffrey
says, "Right now we are at the very lowest end of scale and
for a lot of e-lit will remain there. Over time, for this to work
commercially there has to be enough readers for promotion to work
with an acceptable degree of inefficiency. Otherwise we'll be
selling to ourselves and that's a deadend."
Deena
says, "Mark, could you talk more about the smaller scale of organization?"
Sue
says, "Could it be that because there is an idea that technology
= huge amounts of money, that writing+tech also = hiuge amounts
of money - and this is wrong."
Scott
Rettberg says, "What I mean is if you look at the current audience
of e-lit (sold) and e-lit (read) both those numbers could be larger
by a factor of 10 and it would still be a relatively small audience
than Harry Potter."
Deena
says, "How do we work commercially?"
Scott
Rettberg says, "Smaller ... compared to."
Deena
says, "Sue, I like your point. How do we get around the idea that
writing + technology does not = huge amounts of money?"
Sue
says, "People who have always worked with poetry audiences accept
small audiences."
Jeffrey
says, "Leave the tech out of the equation and replace it
with "Audience." That's what also costs a lot of money."
Deena
says, "Yes, and our audiences are a scale larger than most poetry
audiences."
Sue
says, "I think new media audiences have a lot in common with
poetry audiences - small, specialist."
Sue
says, "Deena, are you sure?"
Amy
says, "When I think about sports or music I think about how the
die-hard audience is composed of sportsmen and musicians. The
same is often true for readers & writers. And e-authors."
Bernstein
says, "Almost all art has an audience small compared to Harry
Potter. And very little writing yields huge amount of money. "
Deena
says, "Jeff, can you tell us more about that, how that costs money?"
Deena
thinks about chapbooks that come in groups of 50, multiplies her
ten factor, and comes out with 500, which is about right for a
hypertext...
Diane
Greco says, "Huh, Deena? I think the number depends on the work."
Jeffrey
says, "An audience must be sold. That's why it costs money,
because selling them costs money."
Scott
Rettberg says, "I think that both Nightkitchen and Digital Stories
are potenitally interesting in the "Bridging" audience's
way."
Sue
says, "Jeffrey, why bother to do that? Marketing becomes
an end in itself."
Sue
says, "Mark, perhaps poetry audiences are different in the US
than in the UK."
Deena
says, "Ahh. Good point Jeff. Can we sell tese works easily?"
Laurie
says, "Because there is a need to reinvent the marketing
wheel every time."
Jeffrey
says, "It's true that most of what we think of as e-lit won't
get to Harry Potter sized audiences ever. our goal should be for
at least a few writers to be able to make a living from their
work, however. "
Sue
says, "Some poetry audiences are large here."
Sue
says, "Not necesarily the BEST poetry ! (grins)."
dglen
says, "Mark, how many writers in the country make a living off
print books right now."
Deena
says, "Laurie, are we reinventing the marketing as well? What
can we do to streamline and not reinvent?"
Amy
says, "Our goal should be to help get ideas and artifacts of beauty
out into the world. It helps if people can make a living at it,
but that's not inherently the goal."
Jeffrey
says, "Only a few. But that's where I'd hope the e-lit makers
could get soon as possible. Without that dynamic I think you lose
a lot from the overall scene."
Laurie
says, "Well, the problem we see is this: a typical book is
released, and the publisher (or author) has to find the audience
for it. It's terribly inefficient and expensive. It gets worse
online!"
Sue
says, "Amy absolutely."
Scott
Rettberg says, "Not many writers will ever make a good living
off of their work, but there are some pretty drastic changes in
the cost chain in an electronic publishing context that should
enable authors to at least get a bigger cut of what is sold."
Deena
says, "That would work. I'll find the disks :)"
Amy
says, "Scott, I sure hope so."
Diane
Greco says, "Laurie, what about community-based publishing, like
chapbooks.com?"
Sue
says, "Scott, can you explain?"
Deena
says, "Scott, what kind of changes?"
Laurie
says, "Our idea is to aggregate audiences who are interested
in works of a certain sort (regardless of medium -- more likely
aggregated by interest areas), and then present them with lots
of different things."
Jeffrey
says, "A bigger cut or the same cut from the profits which
should be lower given lower costs of distribution (not of promotion,
however!)."
Laurie
says, "Yes, like community based publishing."
Deena
says, "Laurie, so you are working on the interest base rather
than the media base..."
Scott
Rettberg says, "Right."
Laurie
says, "Yes -- also, for us, this provides multiple paths to revenue/profitability
. . . which allows us more $$ and runway to experiment with new,
interesting stuff, until we understand what models work for that
new stuff."
Scott
Rettberg says, "The cost shifts to production of a master,
rather than printing ten thousand, and then promoting the hell
out of the copies, or building traffic, or increasing downloads."
Amy
says, "Jeff, sometimes I'm skeptical whether those savings will
truly be realized. But I think on-demand extends the life of the
backlist, and that may make a difference too."
Deena
says, "Right. What business models work on the web?"
Scott
Rettberg says, "Hah."
Scott
Rettberg says, "Half.com
works."
Laurie
says, "We can, in other words, sell print books, advertising,
subscriptions, etc. to that audience."
Sue
says, "Laurie excuse me, I was late, but I missed your intro -
what do you do?"
Laurie
says, "I'm CEO of DIgital Stories, a digitial publishing startup."
Laurie
says, "I come from the magazine world; that influences everything
I say :-)"
Jeffrey
says, "Peer-to-peer will lower distribution costs a lot."
Bernstein
says, "I agree with Amy; it's easy to overestimate the impact
of mfg costs in the balance sheet."
Sue
says, "Ok, thanks - which magazines did you work for?"
Laurie
says, "I was at IDG -- a tech publisher (they publish the Dummies
books also)."
Sue
says, "Ok, thanks."
Scott
Rettberg says, "Again, I think that's a scale thing. If you
were moving 10,000 copies of Patchwork
Girl a month, the impact of lower manufacturing costs would
be significant."
Laurie
says, "Jeff, how do we get around the payment problems with ptop."
Deena
says, "Jeff, dare we get into the copyrights and other potential
challenges for peer to peer?"
Laurie
says, "Also, it really restricts business models to payments,
doesn't it -- I think that's a big challenge"
Jeffrey
says, "I used to publish magazines. wasn't hard to overestimate
how much i spent on paper. and how fast that went up overtime
as % of costs. but the big cost was promotion. by far. so what
we are doing is taking away maybe 15% of the costs of publishing
and replacing it with tech costs that might add up to 10%, roughly.
still that 5% is a huge difference in the long run to building
a successful business."
Deena
says, "Yes, how do we get business models to payments? People
pay for print magazines, but don't pay for online magazines...
"
Laurie
says, "This may change, as free content companies face more
market pressure and/or disappear."
Laurie
says, "I think we will soon see more hybrids."
Deena
says, "How do people accept payment for content?"
Scott
Rettberg says, "I'm also interested in the mix of free "Hook-in"
content and for-pay content that all three of your companies will
be using in some fashion or another. How do you retain customer
interest long enough to get them to pay"
Laurie
says, "Ha! trade secrets!"
Bernstein
says, "Scott: even at your figure (and a systained 120,000 units/year
for a challgening feminist literary fiction would be incredible,
albeit deserved) I'm not sure the manufacturing isssue would change
the critical ratios qualitatively. You'd have to run the numbers
to be sure."
Laurie
says, "I'm joking - that's the big challenge, of course, on the
edit side."
Amy
says, "I understand the publisher concern with making a business
out of this, but I'm curious whether really wonderful pieces of
electronic literature are having trouble finding an audience,
and whether that has to do with the subject matter & experience
or the technology."
Deena
passes around an offering plate for trade secrets.
Jeffrey
says, "They pay for some magazines, not for others. huge
parts of magazine files are free subs, often. but the point you
make, Deena, that readers must pay is true. some peer-to-peer
companies (while relying on free storage, which will also go away
over time) are coming up with envelopes for work that require
a payment to be made (or escrowed, actually) before the envelope
of the downloaded object can be openned."
Deena
says, "Amy, I really think it is all that: the experience witht
he technology, expectations for reading, and subject matter"
Diane
Greco says, "Expectations, especially. Readers think, I shelled
out for this, and it's technology, so it must be MIRACULOUS."
Bernstein
says, "MIRACULOUS AND EASY!"
Laurie
says, "yes -- or, at least, problem free"
Deena
says, "I think the expectations for a $20 hypertext are much hgher
than for a $20 book..."
Scott
Rettberg says, "I think the public reaction to whatever Bertellsman
does with Napster will be a real bellweather for subscription
(and peer to peer)."
Diane
Greco says, "Yeah...and across how many systems and platforms...oog."
Deena
says, "And books don't require tech support..."
Diane
Greco says, "Yup, Deena. And they'd be higher for a $10 HT, $5,
etc."
Bernstein
says, "Eastgate: wirl'd first loit crit tech support line"
Bernstein
says, "Garble: Eastgate: worlds first lit crit tech support
line (sorry folks)"
Deena
says, "Right. Will we be able to find a way to get peer to peer
compatible with copyrights?"
Diane
Greco says, "I think Mark means, real people do Eastgate's
tech support."
Deena
laughs and tries to fly after the overbvlown expectations.
Scott
Rettberg says, "Well a whole lot of programmers are employed with
that right now."
Deena
runs back to Ted Nelson's literary dreams of Xanadu...
Scott
Rettberg says, "I see more of a problem on the "Oversecure"
side than on the "Piracy" side."
Diane
Greco says, "And of course we throw in the Baudrillard
when we can."
Deena
says, "Yes, over the last few years, IO have seen a lot of the
epubs melt down from the overblown fear that someone might steal
a copy..."
Scott
Rettberg says, ""In the ebook world for instance, so many
publishers are thinking more of that than they are about how they'll
actually get people to read the darn things."
Laurie
says, "I agree . . . although peer-to-peer kind of swings things
the other way a bit."
Amy
says, "Right, Scott."
Deena
says, "How do we realistically address security?"
Diane
Greco says, "Piracy's weird - the people who steal are often the
ones who'd never pay in the first place, right? Not a lost mkt
at all."
Laurie
says, "Unless they pass on to people who WOULD have paid."
Deena
says, "Yes, they will either get a borrowed copy or nothing...
So are we back to guiltware?"
Amy
says, "And in many areas, people exhibit "More-more" behavior
- the more they get, the more they want. That's nothing to complain
about."
Jeffrey
says, "Theives don't buy what they can steal. Not sure it's
true they don't buy what they can't steal."
Deena
wonders about human nature sometimes.
Scott
Rettberg says, "But you build a shopping mall shaped like
a soviet fortress with armed guards how many packages you gonna
sell."
Amy
remembers the malls where she grew up and thinks that's kind of
what they look like.
Deena
says, "Right, particularly when the packages contain something
unexpected, like literature you have to work at or stories with
different endings or..."
Bernstein
says, "Sign on wall: don't worry about the thieves."
Deena
says, "So it is a combination of factors."
Jeffrey
says, "Security is pretty simple if you just require a payment
before you can open the file. i'm not worried about the talented
hacker who will break through anything. they are actually few
and far between and at scale a tolerable cost of doing business."
Deena
says, "At least the thieves are getting the product out ;)"
Scott
Rettberg says, "Heard somebody from Adobe
talk on this a few weeks back, he said that they've stopped worrying
about encryption except for certain markets (Asia) where piracy
is common cultural practice."
Sue
says, "If we jump ahead over this difficult time now - what
do you predict will be happening in 10 years time? Do you see
these problems are being resolved, somehow, or not?"
Deena
says, "Going back a bit, how do we determine enough free stuff
to get the audiences interested and then what is enough to pay
for? How do we set prices?"
Bernstein
says, "Which problems, Sue?"
Sue
says, "The problems we're discussing right now - being able
to at least earn a living."
Laurie
says, "Deena, re: your first question, I think it's really trial
and error."
Deena
says, "Good question, SUe. Where do you guys see the business
of new media in 10 years?"
Laurie
says, "Publishers will have to develop a sense of what works
over time."
Amy
says, "Well, if technology is whatever wasn't around when you
were a kid, I think we'll make some headway in getting acceptance
of eliterature. But only if there's really great stuff out there
-- as diverse as in print publishing."
Laurie
says, "yes"
Deena
passes out lots of rubber erasers for bouncing around trials and
errors.
michael_byrne
quietly enters.
Deena
says, "Hi Michael, we are talking about problems that ebusiness
faces and what the industry will look like in 10 years."
Bernstein
says, "Sue -- that problem's been around since the 17th century;
I doubt we;ll fix it in the next 10 years."
Sue
says, "Mark, can you define the problem then?"
Scott
Rettberg says, "I think that the earning a living thing will evolve
on several different channels. Academia, the art world, publishing,
places and funding for e-lit will open up."
Scott
Rettberg says, "Probably faster in non-traditional publishing
environments than in those overseen by Random House"
McDaid
says, "Thanks for a great chat. Gotta go. Bye, all."
Sue
says, "There seem to be two threads in this room - one group
expecting a continuation of small radical publishing, the other
expecting a breakthrough into a strong economy"
Scott
Rettberg says, "Strong economy? Got four years?"
Amy
says, "Why not expect the same broad spectrum we see in other
media - some experimental, some commercial?""
Sue
says, "Yes Amy - agreed"
Laurie
says, "Amy -- yes, agree"
Bernstein
shares a URL...<http://markbernstein.org/Quotes.html>.
Editor's Note: The Quote was "The
purpose of art is to delight us; certain men and women (no smarter
than you or I) whose art can delight us have been given dispensation
from going out and fetching water and carrying wood. It's no more
elaborate than that." — David Mamet
Amy
smiles at Mark's quote.
Diane
Greco says, "Maybe hoping, rather than expecting."
Sue
says, "And Diane - yes!"
Diane
Greco says, "Mark - "Been given dispensation" - begs the
question, by whom?"
Sue
says, "Nice one Mark!"
Scott
Rettberg says, "I think Amy's right there."
Jeffrey
says, "I don't expect a breakthrough, but Ido expect publishers
to begin to take more interest in work make for interactive media
and over time for writers with brands in print to also begin to
work in elit. The effect of both will be more promotional resources
that should make it possible for new e-writers to make a living
(though not at a greater rate than in print, I fear)."
Mercury
arrives from Second Dimension
Deena
says, "Hi Mercury, we are talking about how new media writers
can make a living"
Bernstein
says, "In any case, we were publishing hypertext ten years ago,
I expect we'll be doing it a lot better ten years from now."
Scott
Rettberg says, "I think Mark's right on there. Whenever I step
back and think of this field from a global perspective, it is
truly amazing how much interesting work is going on in the absence
of any real economic infrastructure."
Amy
says, "Dispensation for experimentation will probably come from
the same sorts of places - organizations dedicated to providing
it."
Bernstein
says, "Mamet is thinking that the dispensation comes from the
people who bought tickets to tonight's show."
Jeffrey
says, "Mamet is right."
Sue
says, "yes, Scott, agreed."
Jeffrey
says, "Though there is a chance that writers will make a
bit larger piece of the pie because there is a bit greater possibility
for them to control the relationship with the reader than there
is in print. control of the customer relationship is worth a few
points of margin."
Diane
Greco says, "Deena, writers making a living at writing chase down
all kinds of opportunities. That's not (merely) a question of
publishing models."
Deena
says, "What can we do to help organizations like trAce
and ELO
that are helping to get the audiences?"
Scott
Rettberg says, "We can become members of the ELO, certainly"
Bernstein
says, "What can ELO and Trace do to help bring the audience
to the work?"
Deena
says, "Yes, the ELO
Directory, the trAce
Alt-X new media competition, and ELO
Awards help to spread interest."
Scott
Rettberg says, "The ELO and trAce are doing a great deal right
now to bring audience to the work,now. And we're certainly continuing
with that goal in mind."
Sue
says, "In the UK, organisations like the Royal Opera House get
millions to keep them going - if they were dependent on audiences
they would die immediately."
Deena
likes the UK ideas of subsidy...
Sue
says, "Do you have that in the US?"
Diane
Greco says, "No, Sue..."
Sue
says, "But you have opera houses - how do they survive without
subsidies?"
Diane
Greco says, "Corporations underwrite productions...Of course that
also means certain things don't get produced."
Laurie
says, "Things like NEA grants would seem possible (?)"
Deena
says, "Good point, Laurie. It is hard to get the right category,
but we should keep trying grants like the NEA.."
Jeffrey
says, "ELO just rec'd money from the Ford Foundation, but getting
money from the US gov't is getting harder and harder. Who can
we contact in the UK?"
Sue
says, "Jeffrey - sorry, they don't give money to foreigners!!!!"
Scott
Rettberg says, "Things like that are one source, as our corporate
sources."
Amy
says, "Keep in mind that even print writing is often the loss
leader for performances and business leads and other projects
that spin off from it."
Deena
says, "We have some places in the community for art, and we can
get hypertexts into these places. I now have two art installations
for Marble
Springs and other hypercard work up at subsiddized community
art and theater places. I think putting hypertext lit in museums
helps to spread the word.."
Sue
says, "Deena now that is interesting--- I heard Mark Amerika
interviewed on the BC the other day...And he said that hypertext
in museums was really out of place and missing the point."
Scott
Rettberg says, "Really Mark said that? He's gotten some cake
out of the situation."
Sue
says, "Scott - he was saying that you cannot appreciate the work
when someone else is navigating it and showing it on a big screen."
Deena
says, "My installations are actually on small Mac Classics with
an antique school desk, a very cosy experience...I think that
hypertext anywhere we can get it is in the right place. And some
of my points are that the works are antiques..."
Laurie
says, "It does raise the question of whether this is "Museum"
type work or art for the masses that can fund itself."
michael_byrne
says, "There was an issue that came up in trAce
a few weeks ago where a jourrnalist referred to e-lit as rich
lit. It is expensive for the ordinary person to create this "Art"
?"""
Deena
says, "Good point Michael. There is certainly an investment in
computers..."
Scott
Rettberg says, "Very well could be both/and"
Jeffrey
says, "I don't think stockholders are in much of a mood these
days to let companies give to crazy things like elit. "
Bernstein
shares a URL...<http://www.hypertextKitchen.com>.
Laurie
says, "Of course, the costs there continue to drop."
Sue
says, "Michael, I always thought the rich-lit referred to intensive
content, not rich = money. "
Scott
Rettberg says, "There are gradations between museum work
and choose your own adventure."
Deena
says, "We also have the haves and have nots in terms of who has
access to the computer to read the work."
Jeffrey
says, "Books were for rich people in the beginning. we have
to try, and we are with some new programs at ELO, to get more
access for more people, but it's sort of a built-in reality for
any new medium."
Bernstein
says, "If you browse through the Kitchen
most days, you'll see lots of art made by ordinary people. Often
with help from instituions or governments, but by nor means always."
Laurie
says, "Yes, I was really hinting at independence, censorship,
etc.., etc."
Deena
browses and is amazed at the work and events.
Sue
says, "Question..Do you think 'hypertext' is still the most
effective name for these works?"
michael_byrne
says, " I thought it referred to literature made by or consumed
by the affluent ectors of the population." "
Deena
says, "Sue, no it isn't. Old habits die hard."
Deena
trains herself to say new media, then thinks that covers so much
ground...
Scott
Rettberg says, ""And these works are also on a continuum
between what most people would call "Art" and what most people
would call"Lit" and what most people would call "Games"
and what most people would call "Dreck" and what most people
would call ad infit"
Bernstein
says, "Yes. I think hypertext is exactly what we mean, and we
should resist the tempation to invent a new word for it all the
time."
Sue
says, "Thanks, that's interesting."
Amy
says, "Isn't hypertext specifically about non-linear navigation?
What about blending text with other media?"
Laurie
says, "Scott, but wasn't that Amy's point before? Should
we not be expecting and demanding the full range of publishing
from this new media?"
Scott
Rettberg says, "Yes, Laurie, I think we should."
Diane
Greco says, "Semantics. The only question is whether anyone else
knows what we're talking about and if not, how to change that..no?"
Deena
dodges the question of definitions by saying that we probably
have time for a few more last points before the official end,
but people are welcome to stay after and talk more...
Scott
Rettberg says, "I think hypertext is a literary technique. Electronic
literature comprises other forms as well."
Bernstein
says, "Amy: the other media have been there all along (Lit
Machines) But "Media" is a collective plural, so its hard
to ask people to buy your hypertemedia."
Diane
Greco says, "No, Mark, I think "Hypermedia" surpasses the
grammar ;)"
Amy
says, "Hm."
michael_byrne
says, "There's a difference between publishing a straight literary
text, and a text with graphics and links. "
Deena
wonders if we can get audiences when we can't define the wares...
Jeffrey
says, "The readers beyond the pale of those we already have
don't care what we call it."
Deena
says, "Good point, Jeff. And we may not need to be consistent
on definitions... thinks about the hours we spent with Espen on
definitions..."
Editor's
note: this chat was December
17, 2000.
Scott
Rettberg says, "There are a whole host of amazing things going
on artistically."
Amy
says, "Deena, I expect two strands, as with the Internet: one
focused on publication and one on communication. "
Scott
Rettberg says, "I think there are problems with localizing the
discussion or the interest on one particular technique."
Deena
says, "Scott, what kind of problems?"
Scott
Rettberg says, "Problems of getting boxed in, and eschewing
other possibilities."
Deena
says, "I would still like to know what people see happening in
the next 10 years for business models in new media /hypertext
... Any visions?...I see more and more people becoming intrigued
with the artisitc poossibilities in images, links, navirgation
and more, and this becoming at least a genre in itself... I am
not sure how the business will go..."
Sue
says, "Deena, my vision, if i have one at all, is that most
media will be multimedia eincluding multisensory, and that the
legacy of this time will be interactivity - that is what has changed
literature more than anything else and that is the key, i think,m
toi the new reader esxpereince"
Deena
says, "Amy, where do you see these strands going?"
Sue
says, "Just my 2 cents ;)"
Deena
pays sue her 2 cents and nods happily with the idea of interactivity.
Amy
says, "I think that publication requires thinginess, as in ebooks.
And communication is about environments, where people pay for
access."
Amy
says, "Not that you're not communicating when you publish...I
just mean publishing-mindset."
Sue
says, "Interesting disctinction, Amy."
Sue
says, "Book vs theatre/film?"
Diane
Greco says, "I like "Thinginess", John
Maeda's stuff is beautifully thingy."
Deena
says, "Diane, do you have a URL for that?"
Diane
Greco says, "No, sorry...he's at MIT's media lab. "
Amy
says, "Like websites vs email/moo."
Jeffrey
says, "10 year vision: 5 small publishers doing the most cutting
edge work with a variety of new and evolving technical platforms
for creating and distributing; 20 large publisher using one or
two content creation and distribution platforms (heavily reliant
on peer-to-peer) publishin mostly e-lit by established print writers,
but also publishing a few works by new elit writers. all the work
is downloaded and then "Played" on the client with runtime
versions of the creation software. a lease is paid by the downloader
that can be increased for increased use of the work (volume or
time), and can be passed on to others if the work is released
and original leasor loses rights to the work. publishers are making
gobs of money, writers are making some (a bit more than in print
as a % of profits)"
Deena
says, "Jeff, your vision sounds ideal: we get cutting edge and
business at the same time"
Scott
Rettberg says, "You're living in the new publishing model laboratory."
Deena
has made a vow to end these discussions on time, and passes around
bottles of Guinness for the road and after talk.
Scott
Rettberg says, "A word before I go, just to thank Amy, Laurie,
and Mark, for trying out these business models, and for thinking
beyond standard definitions of e-book content. It will be interesting
to see how all three of your companies are doing with it a year
from now, and what else is in the works."
Amy
says, "Thanks everyone!"
Deena
says, "Yes, I really want to thank our guests, Amy, Laureie, Jeff,
and Mark not only for coming, but for experiementing and finfind
business models!"
Laurie
says, "Thanks to everyone for an interesting discussion --
it was fun!"
Jeffrey
says, "Bye bye. thanks!"
Deena
says, "Thanks for coming, all, we covered a lot of ground!"
Sue
says, "Thanks deena - great interview. Now I am going back
to writing my paper book!!"
Sue
laughs.
--
End log: Sunday, March 18, 2001 3:31:21 pm CST
