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Straight to Chat log
Text that moves--What do we gain from
text that won't cooperate with the reader by standing still
and in the open?
Our first forum celebrated Poetry on the Web (epoetry),
the UK National Poetry Day (10th October), and follows the
New Media Poetry Conference at the University of Iowa. We
explored:
- How are poets using movement and kinetics?
- Is a language and convention developing
to "read" kinetic text?"
- What role does the element of time and
waiting play in kinetic text? What does movement add to
the meaning in poetry?
Article: Peter Howard's Opinion on
Flash
Poetry
Discussion: Reactive comments at the trAce
Forums
Live Chat: with guests Thomas Swiss
of the Iowa Review Web and Megan Sapnar of Poems That Go:
20th October 2002 at LinguaMOO.
Thomas Swiss is Professor of English
and Rhetoric of Inquiry at the University of Iowa, writes
and teaches on poetry, technology, and popular music. His
collaborative New Media poems appear online in a variety
of literary venues, as well as in art exhibits. He is the
author of two collections of poems, Rough Cut and Measure,
and editor of two recent books about the Web. His web site:
http://bailiwick.lib.uiowa.edu/swiss/
Also Iowa Review Web
Megan Sapnar is co-editor of Poems
that Go a new media poetry journal which explores the
intersections between motion, sound, image, text, and code,
and the ways kinetic relationships shape language, meaning
and narrative in new media spaces. She teaches interactive
media at Loyola College in Baltimore.
Related Links
-- Start log: Sunday, October
20, 2002 2:07:12 pm CDT
Warm up
interview with Dan Waber
trAcELOsays, "Hi brick"
[brick] says, "Hello hello"
trAcELOsays, "That one is Japanese, right? moshi moshi
;)"
trAcELOsays, "Are you here for the poems that move chat?"
[brick] says, "Yes, that okay?"
[brick] says, "I like to think all the best poems move"
trAcELOsays, "Sure it is great. I like to think that too--with
the zero at the bone" chill that Emily talks about"
[brick] says, "I couldn't agree more"
trAcELOsays, "Have you been to our chats before?"
[brick] says, "Hrm, perhaps once many moons ago. .
. I've been buried in life"
trAcELOsays, "Ahhh, what is your life? What do you do and
how are you interested in moving poetry?"
[brick] says, "Yes I read the dealie, I did some reading
to be sure I wasn't a total maroon. :)" (Editor's note:original
spelling)
[brick] says, "Are you Deena?"
trAcELOsays, "Yes, I am I will log out soon and come in
as me..."
[brick] says, "I am Dan Waber...I know you
at one level of remove"
trAcELOsays, "This media is fun, you never know who people
are..."
[brick] says, "Don't think we ever actually talked
without someone between us"
trAcELOsays, "Dan!!!! I LOVE your Strings.
I think that is sooo much fun... I show that to everyone...
HI!!!"
[brick] says, "Hi! I love your stuff, too."
[Brick] says, "You're one of the titans, imo"
trAcELOsays, "Blush... I am just one of the addicted. Funny
thing, those self help programs never talk about what happens
when you like your addiction ;)"
trAcELOsays, "What other stuff do you have up? I have lost
track. So much material, so little time!"
[brick] says, "I had strings mark II that Jennifer
Ley put up...and mostly not much else that would excite
this group"
trAcELOsays, "Yeah, I don't think we have met face to face--did
you go to the ELO conference, or the HT one?"
[brick] says, "I didn't go to the ELO conference"
trAcELOsays, "How did you get sucked into
this realm?"
[brick] says, "If by this realm you mean this lingua
moo chat today"
[brick] says, "I'm on the mailing list"
trAcELOsays, "Oh give me the URL for strings Mark II please,"
[brick] says, "Sure"
[brick] says, "http://www.heelstone.com/meridian/waberhyper.html"
trAcELOsays, "Glad to see you at the chat, but I really
meant was how you got interested in poems that move, in
the web genre, new media literature or whatever we are calling
it this week"
[brick] says, "Oh" [brick] says, "Hmmmmm"
trAcELOhas disconnected. Deena arrives.
[brick] says, "Hi Deena"
Deena says, "Hi Dan, I went over to see strings. Hypertext
is very appropriate"
[brick] says, ":-) I try for appropriate"
Deena says, "I think Tom and Megan, our guests, came an
hour early and they will come in again at 2..."
[brick] nods
Deena says, "I am watching winner..."
Deena says, "Ok, is it cheating to ask what winner says?"
[brick] says, "Not cheating...it says, "Ollie
ollie ocean free""
Deena says, "You are right, it does say that...Why couldn't
I see what it said?"
[brick] says, "Funny how that words, er works."
Deena says, "Yeah, I was staring at it and puzzling out
the o and the l and the f and the eeee..."
[brick] says, "I really *don't* like not
being able to resize this window"
Deena says, "Ahh, I think you can resize..."
Deena says, "Oohhh wait. They changed the MOO."
Deena says, "Can you see all your text, if not type"
Deena says, "Linelength= 40"
[brick] says, "Yes I can see all"
[brick] says, "It's just annoying. I'm a cranky old
guy." [brick] grins
Deena Sees Dan in her mind as a great looking guy, youthful
with exuberance like his poems...
[brick] says, "A world where we all looked like our
poems?"
[brick] says, "Wouldn't that make more poets!"
Deena says, "Well, yeah, people should look like their poems..."
Deena says, "Aha...go back to watch again..."
[brick] says, "A riddle inside an enigma, etc."
Deena says, "Hey, I like that description. I'll go change
my character to look like that..."
Deena says, "Why did you start developing
poems that move? What does the movement gain for you?"
[brick] says, "I didn't start with a "Why", I started with
what I always start with"
Deena says, "OK, what do you always start with?"
[brick] says, "A big grin. I am a playful person, and
when I saw that I *could* make text move, I played and I
played and I played"
Megan and Helen
arrive
Helen arrives, like a train from Platform
9 and three-quarters
[brick] says, "Hello Helen."
Helen says, "Hi folks"
Megan-S says, "Hi everyone""
Deena hands round coffee and caffeine and chocolate..
Deena says, "Megan, Hi it is great to see you here! Thanks
for making the extreme sacrifice of your weekend camping
for this..."
Helen says, "Yes indeed, grateful thanks to Megan"
Deena says, "We'll hang out for another 10 minutes or so
to let folks get here, then introduce you and go through
our questions for a semi sane interview"
Megan-S says, "No problem, I'm happy to be here. Bear with
me, as I'm new to moo and keep forgetting to put things
in quotes. I am also suffering from the flu but I promise
to try and be lively despite it""
Helen says, "Oh dear Megan, what a shame!"
Deena sends Megan some hot chicken soup---did you miss the
camping entirely, then?
Megan-S thanks Deena
Megan-S says, "I did go camping, but I think it made the
flu worse. Not a good idea to go camping when you already
feel a little rundown.""
Deena says, "Hi Helen, I just saw Harry Potter
at one am at the MileHI convention--a sci-fi con I am in
this weekend."
Helen says, "Did you enjoy it Deena? Spot the 50p piece?"
Deena says, "I did not spot the 50p, but those 50 ps you
gave me are big hits with my students.."
Helen says, "Maybe it's in a later book..."
Dan on collaboration
and text bricks
Deena says, "Dan was telling me about how
he starts his poetry with a big grin==a playful aspect..."
Helen says, "To be encouraged"
Helen says, "Why are you a [brick] Dan? It's
a good nickname!"
[brick] says, "The [brick] goes waaay back to a set
of poems I wrote that all have same number of spaces/characters
per line."
Helen says, "Dan, I'll have to look at your work...."
Deena says, "That is a cool structure..."
Deena says, "Dan, sounds like you would be
a lot of fun to collaborate on a project with/..your piece
in Riding
the Meridian says you are doing a lot of that...who
are you working with now?"
[brick] says, "I love to collaborate"
Deena says, "Dan, who are you working with now? What are
you up to?"
[brick] says, "I am not up to much right now.
One thing that's top secret no telling, and the rest is
just getting back on the horse. I've had some, ER, life
challenges that have kept me from writing very much."
Deena says, "I am thinking about doing something FUN. My
stuff always ends up on the dark, weirder side. Maybe we
should try something..."
Helen says, "You write plenty of fun in MOO Deena"
Deena hands Dan a tool box and a stirrup so he can get back
in the saddle.
[Brick] says, "I would love that, Deena."
[Brick] says, "You are one of the people I have always
wanted to work with. And it's a short list"
Deena is honored. Deena says, "Yeah, I have a good time
here, but I dunno how to get poems that move to have a playful
side."
[brick] says, "Helen says, "I just can't write poetry
- I can write "Text that moves" does that count?"
[brick] says, "That's perfect for collaboration Helen"
Helen says, "Although - I have collaborated with poets and
animated their poems"
Deena says, "Yeah, you and Dan should get together, Helen..."
Helen says, "You can see some in the current Blue Moon"
[brick] says, "Heh, look at Deena get me all aswamp
in work"
Deena says, "Thanks Dan, I'll be in Oz for 3 months HOORAY
and maybe we can do something over the net anyway...a little,
tiny project..."
Helen says, "I look forward to reading it..."
[brick] says, "Love to...you visiting mez?"
Deena says, "Yeah, gonna drop in on Mez, Komninos, Geniwaite,
the whole ozzy gang."
[brick] says, "Tell mez I said hi, tho she probably
won't remember me"
Deena says, "I sure will"
More arrivals--cahoots,
Thomas Swiss
cahoots arrives. cahoots says, "Hello
all" Helen, Deena, and Megan-S say, "Hello cahoots""
cahoots bows ceremoniously to the room
cahoots says, "Didn't realise you were all here, just
got Deena's page when I logged in a guest to do some testing"
Helen says, "Haven't seen you for a while cahoots, all OK?"
Deena says, "How has life been cahoots"
cahoots [to Helen]: "Hi, okay, but busy, and fighting
a nasty lurgy that's descended with the drizzle"
Deena hands cahoots some of that guaranteed chicken soup
cahoots grins, thanks Deena, and guzzles greedily
cahoots [to Helen]: "How goes it in sunny Nottingham?
Helen says, "It's raining cats and dogs"
Thomas Swiss says, "Swiss reporting for duty!"Thomas
Swiss says, "Hi all"
Deena says, "Hi Tom! Welcome!" Megan-S says, "Welcome
back Thom""
Thomas Swiss says, "Glad to be here!"
Deena says, "I saw you and Megan had dropped in a lot earlier--thanks
for your dedication as we shuffle around the globe changing
times!"
Thomas Swiss says, "Yes, Meg and I were just trying
to get our chops inn order. Not that mine still are, but
I think I have the hang of it more or less and the soup's
good!"
Deena says, "Great to have you both here.
Deena serves tea and crumpets and scones for
the English crowd, more good chicken soup for Megan
Deena Gives Dan the cookies shaped like clowns
[brick] says, "Cookies mmmm but clowns skeer me"
:reassures Dan with sugar cookies and other placebos.
A quick MOO torial
Deena says, "Are you both in normal mode?
If so, to talk, just type a quote mark and your speech.
"
Megan-S says, "Yes...what's the difference between say,
emote, and normal?""
cahoots wonders what normal mode is
Thomas Swiss says, "Well, I'm in the 'say' mode. That
work?"
Deena says, "Say mode works just fine. There are three buttons
on the right hand side: say, emote, normal"
Helen lets Deena answer
Deena says, "Say puts everything you type as speech"
Deena says, "Emote puts everything as a motion"
Deena says, "Normal means you have to put a quote mark before
a speech and a colon before a motion"
cahoots jumps up and down to demonstrate and emotion
cahoots realises what Deena's on about, "I forget sometimes
that the buttons are there, I'm usually in a text based
client"
Deena says, "Ahhh, I should try a text based so I know how
to help people there"
Helen says, "If you're just going to talk, stick with say
and just type"
Thomas Swiss says, "Helen's comment seems good to me,
tho I like that 'emote' now that I see what it does!"
Deena says, "Yes, and to share a URL, just type @URL"
cahoots [to Deena]: "I can recommend tkMOO if you're
going to be programming any, or Simple MUD
Deena jumps up and down to show emote
Deena hands round more cakes and cookies and custard cream
pies that promise to stay where they are and not hit anyone
in the face like last time
Nick Monfort arrives--New
Media Reader news
NM ducks in. NM says, "Hi hi"
Deena says, "Hi Nick, how are you doing?"
Megan-S says, "Hi Nick"
Helen says, "Hello"
NM says, "Busy busy over here. How are you all?"
Megan-S says, "How's Penn? no snipers there"
Deena says, "If I ask how the New Media Reader is, Nick,
will I survive the question?"
NM [to Deena]: I've still got a bit to finish up on the
CD, of course, which is part of what's keeping me so busy
NM [to Deena]: should be actually published and all in a
few months, though
Deena says, "Great, we will celebrate then!"
New
Media Poetry Conference, Oct 11-12, 2002
Deena asks Tom and Megan how was the conference?
"I was scheming to make it, but in the end, just couldn't..."
Thomas Swiss says, "Well, I found it fun, and others found
it.....well, Meg? "
NM [to Megan-S]: we're sniper-free but I'm still holed up
inside all the time
Megan-S says, "Inspiring, Thom... totally inspiring"
Helen starts to clear away the dirty plates
and cookie crumbs because we have to look spick and span
and businesslike for our first Forum Live chat which starts...
any ... minute
Deena sends in a whirlwind of cleaners and decorators so
the place looks like it came out of house beautiful
Deena says, "Yes, tell us about the conference as we
get ready to roll..."
Helen listens
Thomas Swiss says, "Well, in some quarters the debate about
the conf. goes on....there are some listservs that are debating
about everything you can imagine: poetry vs poetics, is
epoetry poetry at all? who made no sense at all at the event,
that sort of thing..."
Deena says, "Er, Thom, who made no sense at all?"
Thomas Swiss says, "Depends on who you ask! everybody
seems to have a diff. candidate!"
Deena says, "Er, Tom, so the argument is that some poets
don't make sense, or that the argument about e-poetry being
poetry doesn't make sense?"
Megan-S says, "It was great to have
speakers with different backgrounds, I wouldn't call it
an e-poetry love-fest. That's what made if fun"
[brick] says, "Some would wish to call it f-poetry,
eh?"
NM says, "E-poetry love fests aren't fun?"
Megan-S says, "Love fests are great. "
NM never gets invited to any e-poetry love fests.
cahoots never gets invited to love fests. she sulks.
Deena sulks too, having never received an invite to a love-fest...
Deena recovers quickly and sends round more miso soup for
the ill, genius beer for the well and hearty, and wine and
cheese for all
Cheryl and Carolyn arrive.
Cheryl says, "Hey Deena, hey all"
Deena says, "Hi Cheryl, Carolyn, other newcomers, we are
chatting about the New Media conference last weekend before
we get started with our poems that move chat"
Carolyn wonders an invite to what...
cahoots . o O ( perhaps I should host my own love fest.
poetry optional )
Deena is wrangling invitations from cahoots.
Deena says, "Hi Carolyn, we want invites to poetry love
fests..."
____________________
| |
cahoots holds up a BIG sign: | we want love fests |
|____________________|
Thomas Swiss says, "Hightlights for
me included a talk by Kate Hayles, flash work by Ingrid
Ankerson, a piece by meikal and, some wild programmable
things by Cayley and Glazier, etc. and one really good dinner!"
megan-s says, "My highlites were Martin Spinelli and
Kenny Goldsmith"
Cheryl says, "I agree with Megan -- Spinelli was a
great inspiration"
Carolyn says, "I should say so! "
Helen says, "In what way?"
Thomas Swiss says, "Majorie Perloff thought a lot of
stuff shown at the conf. was not poetry. Invitations: well,
most folks just came when they heard about it. All were
welcome,natch. spinelli was great on sounded poetics-- as
was goldsmith."
Cheryl [to Helen]: in that people have been thinking about
visual poetics for a while, but in the realm of NM poetry,
it seems sound hasn't quite caught up
megan-s says, "He was describing the difference between
an analog aesthetic and a digital aesthetic in sound editing.
He showed examples of different sound editing techniques
and encouraged us to try them. I'm anxious to play"
NM wonders about NM poetry
Cheryl [to NM]: oh NM = new media (shorthand :)
NM [to Cheryl]: heh, I know
Helen says, "That's a function of sounds still being
difficult on the web...."
NM [to Helen]: EH?
Helen says, "It's good to get practical encouragement like
that"
Deena hands round practical encouragement.
Finally starting
up
Deena says, "Well, I think we can get started,
and we may have the same debate going on here in a while."
Deena says, "Ahh, yes, we are getting ready to do the Poems
that Move chat. You can see bios and notes on the side by
clicking on poems." (Editor's note: this is the material
in the intro at the top of this archive log)
Deena says, "I'd like to introduce our guests tonight: Thomas
Swiss--Professor of English and editor of Iowa
Review Web and Megan Sapner--interactive media teacher
and co editor of Poems
that Go" cahoots becomes more serious and settles down
to listen
Deena says, "Megan Sapnar--sorry about the finger slip there
;)"
megan-s says, "No prob, I answer to either ;)"
Carolyn waves.
Deena says, "Our audience is also welcome to introduce themselves
so we know who is here..."
Helen says, "We plan to have about 20 minutes between Deena
and the guests and then throw it open.."
[Brick] pays attention
Deena says, "You can see the full bio and intro by clicking
on the poem notes."
Introducing Poems
that Go
Deena says, "Megan, could you start by telling
us a bit about Poems
that Go--why did you start this? What is behind the
title? "
megan-s says, Poems
that Go was inspired by a signer at a poetry reading.
The motion of hands and the facial expressions that accompanied
the reading brought something new to the poem, it became
a poem in motion, there was a new visual component, and
it took the poem somewhere else. It wasn't about technology,
or new media or anything like that. Other than that, the
site was very spontaneous. We (co-editor Ingrid Ankerson
and myself) wanted to learn Flash, so we started animating
poems in order to learn the software. We have created some
very bad things! But sometimes creating a lot of unsuccessful
works can give a clearer picture of what a successful work
might look like. We are still learning. "
mayhem arrives. Deena says, "Hi Mayhem, we
are interviewing our guests --click on poems for information
there on the side"
mayhem says, "Oops sorry - cheating. I'm cahoots in
disguise. But cahoots is using a text only mode so I'm just
checking the links :-)"
Chopping peppers
Deena says, "How do you distinguish between
poems that go and poems that stay put on the page?"
"Deena says, "Wow, bringing in new elements like that is
wonderful--I think it helps to remind us that this is not
a genre out and unconnected to anything..."
megan-s says, "In the beginning, PTG was a reaction to hypertext.
We wanted something linear, something that had a beginning
and an ending. Something that was more visual. And most
of all, we thought the most exciting part about bringing
poetry onto the Web was the ability to preserve the authors
voice. Early works were read aloud and animated. See While
Chopping Red Peppers, a piece that we are pretty much
embarrassed by now: "
Deena thinks there is no reason for embarrassment...
megan-s says, "And thanks Deena for advice about not
being embarrassed... we all start somewhere eh??"
Cheryl holds up her Red Peppers sign of support!
Carolyn says, "The play space during load time is a lovely
touch. "
[brick] says, "How old is "Chopping peppers"?"
megan-s says, "Chopping peppers was written in 96,
it was brought to the web in April 2000"
Where do poems go?
megan-s says, "About the title: Poems
that Go seemed like the perfect name for our project.
Is it a complete or incomplete sentence? Poems that go where?
Poems that go how? Poems that go when? The sentence holds
potential energy, which we hoped to convert to kinetic energy.
And ultimately that question is up to our contributors to
figure out why, when, how a poem can go. Poems
that Go doesn't equal poems that are animated which
unfortunately we have spent a lot of time trying to explain."
Deena holds up sign "Animation may or may not be motion...
Trondheim_Guest arrives Deena says, "Hi Trondheim,
Megan Sapnar is explaining how Poems
that Go originated"
Deena says, "Megan, What do you think that motion adds to
a poem? How does this kinetic energy work within a poem?"
megan-s says, "Well I have a long answer here, this
may take me a moment to coordinate my cutting and pasting
and the 20 windows I have open at the moment"
Iowa Review intro
Deena says, "Thomas, do you want to jump
in here with how and why Iowa
Review Web started to add poems with motion?"
Thomas Swiss says, "Sure, Deena, it was a continuation of
hypertext in some ways. TIR web has been a round a few years,
folded, and I brought it back, inspired by journals like
Megan's and Talan's and others. There seemed (seemS) to
be be more work being done than places to publish good work!
"
megan-s says, "Thanks Cheryl, you're
our number 1 fan. And please, Thom jump in at any moment
and save me!"
Deena says, "Looks forward to both answers as people frantically
cut and paste--poems in motion in their own right right
at the keyboard..."
Motion as message
megan-s says, "Motion is another layer of
language, which can be used as a literary device. I was
reading a Flash book by motion graphic designer Hillman
Curtis who writes in the intro:"
megan-s says, "The motion is the message:
What does that mean? When Marshall McLuan theorized that
the medium is the message, he meant that the means used
to communicate a message are more important and can have
more impact than the message itself. Similarly, in motion
graphics, the motion can be more important and have more
impact than the graphical element being moved. The way
you choose to move, or not move, an element across the
screen can enhance the meaning of that element greatly.
If for example, I choose to move a text element slowly,
scaling and fading up from black and resolving center
screen, I imbue that text element with a sense of drama,
focus, and perhaps, stability. "
megan-s says, "That was all from Hillman Curtis by
the way"
megan-s says, "In my above quote, Curtis is
talking about pure graphic design. A poem has to be more
than graphic design. But I would add that that text element
is also imbued with film language now: drama, focus, perhaps
stability, have been communicated to us because we are familiar
with the codes of motion graphics through film (title credits
for example) and advertising, television, trailers, news
events, etc. ; this is important to recognize& artists may
not want to move elements in certain ways because it communicates
commercialized to us; instead of thinking: that piece is
all zip-zip corporate flash, says nothing, looks pretty,
total surface, has no meaning& "
megan-s says, "Maybe it would be better to think: why
is the artist using that language of motion in this piece?
The way things move says something about the piece. Yes,
a lot of times these zip-zip Flash pieces are purely to
show off the designers skill, or perhaps to show that he/she
can communicate in this (commercial) motion graphics language.
"
megan-s says, "I have hope that we will eventually see this
language for what it is, you can point to a corporate vibe
by using motion in a certain way this should be intertwined
with the meaning of the poem. For example, I might use fade
to black because I'm emphasizing a dramatic element, but
also because I know that you as a viewer recognize fade
to black as meaning something: the dramatic conclusion,
or whatever & you associate that with something. In design
this is how you communicate a message In art, this can be
used to question the dominant way of seeing things."
Deena says, "Megan, I think that really answers how you
can see motion as an integral element in a piece--as vital
if not more so than the words themselves---"
Trondheim_Guest says, "Hello all"
megan-s says, "OK, I'm exhausted now. Hello Trondheim_Guest"
Deena hands round more genius beer and stout ale to keep
our spirits up
Deena says, "Tom, what do you think about Hillman Curtis'
idea that the motion conveys a meaning on its own?"
Getting some frames
of reference
Thomas Swiss says, "Deena, I agree completely
w. that Curtis quote. Indeed I was wondering if anybody
knows of a good book that "Theorizies' motion or the
morph? is there a history of writing about what it MEANS
to put a letter in action, for instance? "
Deena says, "Good question Tom, or if anyone has a book
that shows the conventions--how we are conditioned to see
what from film, anime, etc."
Cheryl says, "There's this book by Bruce Block called
The
Visual Story, but it's very prescriptive and not theoretical
at all...But it's a start."
Thomas Swiss says, "Thanks for the ref. Cheryl. Glad
you are here!"
Deena says, " Scott McCloud's Understanding
Comics helps explain these elements for static drawings.."
Thomas Swiss says, "Thanks, Deena. Anybody else who
has ideas, please do send to me via email at :thomas-swiss-AT-uiowa.edu.
Love to keep a running record and report back!"
Carolyn says, "Diana Reed Slattery theorizes
kinetic text."
Deena says, "Oh really Caroline, do you have that article
or a reference for Diana?"
Carolyn says, "Uno momento"
Carolyn says, "Slattery's website is at http://www.academy.rpi.edu/glide/"
Deena says, "Right, but Carolyn, do you have specific references
for Diana's theory works?"
Carolyn says, "All of Diana's essays are connected through
the website there. Follow the links ."
Deena says, "Thanks, Carolyn."
Deena says, "Tom, Megan, What are some of
the ways that poets on your sites have used motion to convey
meaning?"
Thomas Swiss says, "Well, the best way to find out is to
go to the sites, of course and nose around. Flash DOES seem
to rule just now, but we are looking into using some streaming
video movies, etc."
Thomas Swiss says, "I think folks are just
beginning to conceptualize what it means to make a poem
move, do you agree Meg? What are your thoughts now on what
you are doing creatively on that front, not just as an editor?"
Examples of moving
works
Deena says, "Tom, Megan, can you guys cite
some of your favorite pieces that incorporate motion as
a literary device?"
megan-s says, "I like Thom's piece Genius
(with Skye Giordano)"
megan-s says, "Also like the
Dreamlife of Letters, Brian Kim Stefans"
Thomas Swiss says, "A favorite piece of mine is Dreamlife
of Letter (in a vispo
mode); there are so many lovely pieces at Born
Magazine, another great site. Nod to Megan"
megan-s says, "We think alike thom"
Carolyn says, "But Dreamlife of Letters, like so many flash
works, really just wants to be a kinetic book and ignores
the attributes of the new media. It's animation for animation's
sake. "
Break for DHTML, introductions
to Carolyn Guertin and Claire Dinsmore
Helen says, "Does DHTML still have a role
in making text move?"
Deena answers "Not sure, Helen. I think a lot of folks
are using Flash, but some are using DHTML and other avenues."
Troll_Guest arrives
Deena says, "Hi Troll Guest, we are grilling our guests
on how motion is a literary device--you can see their BIOS
and ideas by clicking on poem"
Troll_Guest says, "Hello all, this is Claire - for
some reason the program didn't allow me anywhere to log
in a name, but just brought me right in - thus, I don't
know who I am ..."
(Editor's note: Claire is also known as Cleo.)
Deena says, "Hi Claire! Introduces Claire as the web
editor for Cauldron
and Net, another excellent source for moving poetry"
[brick] says, "Claire as in Dinsmore? Carolyn as in
Guertin?"
NM says, "Hi Claire!"
Troll_Guest says, "Yes to Claire"
Carolyn says, "Hi Claire"
Troll_Guest just to say: after a month or so hiatus from
the web, I'm really glad to 'see' you all!
Deena welcomes Claire back with open arms and a big hug.
Carolyn says, "Carolyn Guertin, yes. "
Deena says, "Welcomes Carolyn Guertin, compiler of Assemblage,
wonderful source for HT lit and poems that move"
Thomas Swiss says, "Hi Carolyn!"
Carolyn says, "Hi Tom. "
Carolyn says, "And I thought I could play the role of wallflower.
"
megan-s says, "Not a chance!"
[brick] says, "Sorry :-)"
Deena hands out bouquets of posies without wallflowers to
everyone
Carolyn says, "Thanks, Deena. "
Deena urges all to introduce themselves as she can't keep
track...
De-trolling 1
Troll_Guest says, "Did it work?"
Deena says, "Troll, did what work?"
Troll_Guest says, "[I tried to rename myself]... anyway
..."
Carolyn says, "Poor Claire Trapped as a troll. "
cahoots [to Troll_Guest]: "Didn't work, might be something
guests can't do :-( sorry, worth a try"
Deena thinks Claire is anything other than a troll...
Troll_Guest says, "Lol! "
Spatial attributes
for content and design--specifically in DreamLife
Deena says, "I'd like to go back to Carolyn's
earlier point. Tom, Megan, all, how do you distinguish between
animation for design's sake and for content sake?"
Deena says, ""Audience, all, how do you see motion as conveying
meaning and emotion? How are you poets out there using motion
in your works? How are we creatively using motion, as Tom
says?"
megan-s says, "I don't think its animation for animation
sake... what attributes of new media were you referring
to Carolyn?"
Carolyn says, "Spatial attributes, Megan"
megan-s says, "Hmmm, I'm interested, can you explain
more"
Deena says, "Yes, tell us about the spatial attributes of
motion..."
Carolyn says, "Dreamlife
of Letter uses primarily a print aesthetic plus the
temporal dimension, but ignores any pretense at allowing
us to roam around or explore the interface or the text or
the rooms of a narrative. "
Reading the motion
Deena says, "Sometimes I cannot follow why
a particular piece moves or what it is trying to do...what
are ways I can "read" the motion in a piece to ferret
out the meaning?"
megan-s says, "I don't think you can read motion the same
way you can read text... "
Carolyn says, "Precisely, m-s. Motion is spatial. "
Cheryl says, "Adding my two cents, I do think you can
read motion akin to reading poetic texts...the metaphors
of motion..."
Everdeen saunters in.
Deena says "Hi Everdeen, we are talking about the spatialness
of motion and how to read it."
megan-s says, "What kind of metaphors of motion Cheryl"
Deena says, "Cheryl, what do you see as the metaphors of
motion? Hillman Curtis points out a few..."
Cheryl says, "Well, like, how we've become accustomed
to reading movie titles, like you said before...understanding
that movement/motion creates certain reactions in an audience
that can contribute to the text's meaning"
Cheryl says, "And by text, I don't mean alphabetic
only"
Troll_Guest says, "I utterly agree with Cheryl - speed,
rhythm, ... all has meaning ..."
megan-s says, "Yes yes I agree with that Cheryl"
Print and video and
other media motions
Thomas Swiss says, "Is anyone working on
poetry/motion on a scale larger or diff. than the web? site-specific
work, that kind of thing?"
[brick] [to Thomas Swiss ]: I have some print pieces that
move
Deena says, "OK, Dan, how did you get print to move?"
Thomas Swiss says, "Brick: how do you mean?"
[brick] says, "I made a series of postcards (12) that
have lines of text on them such that the cards can be assembled
in three different ways to make three different endless
poems"
Deena says, "Ahh, yes, so the reader actually moves the
physical cards, Dan? Like Raymond Queneau (sp) Mille mille
de poem?"
NM says, "Cent
Mille Milliard de poemes, methinks"
Deena says, "Ahh, thanks NM. I knew someone would rescue
me ;)"
NM says, "With the proper accent on poemes"
[brick] says, "Yes Deena like that only they make different
kinds of loops"
[brick] says, "The strings...I devised the technique
first, and let playing with it serve as the inspiration
for the poems...but I do that a lot, start with limitations."
Cheryl says, "I've done a few short pieces
with video"
Cheryl says, "video poems, if you want...but I;I've got
to work on the sound aspect"
megan-s says, "video poems... there is something that didn't
come up at the conference"
Cheryl [to megan-s]: poemsthatgo (or poems that go...in
any variety) didn't come up
Deena says, "Dan, how do you see your morphing
text as a metaphor? What are you trying to do in Strings
and Strings
II ?"
Automatic cinematic
Deena says, "I wonder, how conditioned are
we by cinema? How much of an influence is this in poems
that move?"
Cheryl [to Deena]: Cinema totally influences this genre
(if you want to call it that..)
Deena calls it genre and art and poetry and neatly sidesteps
the big traps of definitions...
Thomas Swiss says, "Building on Deena's: cinema, yes.
Cheryl, do you work in film or with film?"
Cheryl says, "But I have no formal training in film.
Something I'm reading up on"
Cheryl says, "It's the screen-watching,
the movement-watching that we have adopted as poetic convention"
Deena says, "Yes, just as font suggests something, so does
the motion..."
Helen says, "So a writer cannot start anew
with new meanings for your poems in motion because your
readers will already be conditioned by previous film etc.
experiences?"
Thomas Swiss says, "I think Helen has it right. What
do you think, Helen?"
Simon says, "It's true that so much animated work borrows
film metaphors"
Helen says, "It is daunting to have to learn about people's
expectations before you can write and confound those"
Cheryl [to Helen]: it depends on the type of motion-poem.
Some are not interactive (other than reading) but many are,
which makes the audience interact differently than plain
cinematic techniques might
Helen [to Cheryl]: yes good point
Deena says, "Helen, good point. How do we work with expectations
for motion that already exist? Can we play off those expectations
and lead to new places?"
Performance poetry
Deena says, "Have you guys seen Komninos
Zervos' performance/video poems?"
Cheryl says, "I've tried to look at komninos stuff,
but I've relegated myself to a dial-up, which confounds
me constantly"
Thomas Swiss says, "Yes, I have seen Komnino's poems.....
I wish there were more folks working in that area: actually,
an area pioneered by Warhol and his crew in the late 50s."
Deena says, "I like the idea of the physical performance
merging with the motion on the screen..."
Troll_Guest says, "It's just another
level of/to visual or concrete poetry really."
Simon arrives.
Deena says, "Hi Simon, we are talking about the metaphors
of meaning in motion in poetry..."
De-trolling
2
>> Troll_Guest is now known as Cleo.
Deena says, "Yeah, Cleo escaped from the trolls! Horrors!
Hoorays!"
cahoots applauds Troll guest's renaming
Time pieces
Cheryl wishes she had time to read/watch
everything artistic out on the web.
Deena hands everyone a magic time machine to have enough
time to see and experience all
cahoots pounces on her magic time machine with glee
Cheryl thanks Deena
Deena says, "Claire, Megan, Carolyn, all,
I'd like to address the notion of time as a part of the
work--when you create pieces within a time frame, how do
you see the tempo influencing the meaning?"
Megan-S says, "Are you talking about rhythm, Deena,
or the length of a piece?"
Deena says, "Megan, Both, I think, but more the tempo and
the length--how long a piece of writing or a screen is up
before it goes..."
Carolyn says, "Real time, navigating in space in the present
moment, is a key element of the new media, it seems to me.
"
Cheryl says, "But sometimes *real time* isn't what
is wanted. I'm thinking about lyric poetry in new media
formats...where the here/now isn't the necessary element"
Carolyn says, "In an immersive environment real time is
essential to the experience. You might not choose to work
with it, but I don't think you can escape it. "
Deena says, "Carolyn, how do you chose to--or not to-- work
with real time? How is it a factor in works?"
Cheryl [to Carolyn]: I guess I was getting at that some
poems try to affect getting away from real time, even though
they may be watched/performed in real time
Cleo says, "Did you read what I
said in the summer issue of Poems that Go? that's my
2 cents, as it were ..."
Deena says, "Claire, can you give the URL and a synopsis?"
Reactive media
Deena says, "Megan, the fall 2002 Poems
that Go issue deals with reactive media--do you see
that as a form of motion? Can you explain reactive media?"
NM says, "Sounds like reactive armor"
NM says, "Media that explodes outward toward you before
you reach it"
Megan-S says, "This is something I've been turning
over lately. I used reactive media to try and distinguish
between real time and delayed time in new media"
Deena says, "NM, can you give some examples of media exploding
outwards?"
NM fishes in his bucket of examples but does not locate
any reactive media there
From click to meaning
in 90 seconds or less
Thomas Swiss says, "Funny. One person
said at the conference that reason he never liked elaborate
hypertext pieces is that it took up too much time to read!
as if reading should only take 90 seconds or less. Anybody
see the piece in the New York review of books last week
on hypertext? it's sort of a review of K. Hayle's new book
coming out next month."
Deena says, "Tom, I didn't see that review, do you have
a URL?"
Deena says, "There are some good ht that only take 90 second
s to read. What do you guys think? How long do you spend
with pieces?"
Deena says, "I wonder if people expect a full length movie
in 90 seconds?"
Simon says, "Not so much a full length movie as an
epiphany in 90 secs!"
Carolyn says, "Interesting question, Deena."
[Brick] says, "I get that 90 second attitude a lot
with IRC poetry"
[brick] says, "Too many notes!"
Cheryl says, "I think the 90-second
thing is a layover from print (esp. in relation to who said
it at the conference)..."
Deena says, "Cheryl, a layover from what?"
Cheryl says, "A layover from print technologies, where
poems are poems no matter where they are, because the poems
exist permanently on the page (i don't agree with this,
just using is as example)"
Simon says, "The nature of browsing
is to keep on moving. People naturally want to journey in
this space and hence the impatience perhaps"
Deena says, "Simon , so we are supposed to get meaning and
epiphanies in 90 seconds? What do you guys think about the
length of these works?"
Simon says, "Well it's not a rule but it's one way
of working"
[brick] says, "Or perhaps the work isn't engaging enough...tough
to blame the viewer for everything"
Cheryl says, "...and I think the more techno- and culturally
literate people are, the more adept they are at reading
shorter works that will have the same kinds of meanings
(perhaps) as longer works."
Deena says, "Simon , all, do you think
people approach these poems as browsing or as exploring?
How should--could--would people read and react to poems
that move?"
NM says, "There any many good poems that can be read
in 90 seconds"
NM says, "They compel me to read them again, which
online experiences should do as well, I'd think"
Simon says, "I don't think they necessarily
approach them as browsing but bring browsing habits to the
pieces maybe"
Deena says, "Yes, I have to come back again and again to
pieces to understand them..."
Megan-S says, "Good point nick"
NM says, "That is, what [brick] said"
Navigation in poetry
Nicki arrives bouncily.
cahoots says, "Hi nicki"
Nicki says, "Hi cahoots, hi everyone, sorry to be so
late in the day"
Deena says, "Hi Nicki, we are exploring how we interact
with poems that move"
Deena says, "Tom, how do you see navigation
in this poetry? I am thinking of pieces like V..."
Thomas Swiss says, "I LOVE V, Deena. That's one way to navigate--
I cld imagine many others. Or pieces that you don't navigate,
of course, that just stream at you as many pieces do......
but some folks see that as 'too easy for the reader.' some
think that animation (go) that streams is too much like
TV or a film, and not enough like a 'poem.' not sure I buy
that, natch."
cahoots wonders, "Have any of the speakers
studied elements of eurythmy to see if there are similarities
between moving to poetry and making poetry move?"
Carolyn says, "I work with sensory space,
and try to create works that write themselves as we write
ourselves on the body. The experience of time passing, of
our sensory perceptions are key to the reading experience.
"
Thomas Swiss is dragged
off to real life
Thomas Swiss says, "Deena, I'm getting
dragged to the door to get to the museum before it closes
in an hour . Gotta run. Thanks for the invite and to Helen,
to, and hi to all you good buddies for dropping by. More
soon! and Megan, happily, is still here! Th."
Cheryl says, "Bye Thom"
Deena says, "Thank you for coming tom!"
Megan-S says, "Bye Thom have fun"
[brick] says, "Bye Thom"
NM says, "See you Thom"
Simon says, "Bye"
cleo says, "Bye"
Carolyn says, "Bye Thom."
Thomas Swiss has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Thomas Swiss .
Examples of poems
that move
Deena says, "All, which poems that move are
your favorites? how do you interact with them?"
Deena says, "I really like to watch Strings,
to see how the words flow in and out. I also go back to
Peter Howard's Rainbow
Factory---the simple animation there seems to me to
work in many ways---as a comment in and under the text..."
Helen says, "I still like Peter's
Poppy, simple but SO effective, and very primitive compared
to more contemporary ones"
Deena says, "I also like Rob Kendall's new piece, Faith--he
uses movement as the language and the transition so well
here.
Cheryl says, "The two pieces that influenced me the
most are the Red Peppers piece we saw earlier and Scrutiny
in the Great Round (even tho its on CD, it's still very
effective as a poetic/artistic work)"
Browse before you
buy
Carolyn says, "Browsing is an importantly
concept. We get to manhandle things, move around, try things
on, comparison shop, but not buy into the economy of exchange.
"
Deena says, "Carolyn, could you explain more about
the economy of exchange?"
Carolyn says, "Well, a browser is a shopper who does
not buy. She/he looks, but doesn't enter into a financial
exchange. "
[brick] says, "Great metaphor carolyn"
Carolyn says, "It's also a reflection of the fact that we
don't yet have a true interactivity in the new media. "
Deena says, "Carolyn, so readers sometimes browse poems
rather than engage in them?"
Carolyn says, "Do you mean print poems, Deena? or electronic
ones?"
Deena says, "Carolyn, I was mostly referring to how we interact
with electronic poems--does that differ from paper poems?"
Deena says, "Carolyn, all, what would it
take to get interactivity in the media?"
Carolyn says, "No microsoft?"
Carolyn says, "An independent browser?"
cleo says, "I think we have to be careful though, to
keep these 'poems that go' from becoming naught but eye
candy. Not that candy's bad [says the designer...], but
when we call a thing 'poetry' we're carrying a lot of ...
how shall we say? it's a loaded term, that deserves thoughtful
attention."
Cheryl says, "I still don't get why
interactivity is such a big buzz word for this field. Are
we talking physical interactivity?"
Carolyn says, "I think so, Deena. I think that in electronic
works we choose our own reading path. "
Megan-S says, "I agree Claire, which is why I tried bringing
up the Hillman Curtis stuff earlier"
Simon says, "Yes, we choose are own path but it is
usually circumscribed by the author"
Carolyn says, "Interactivity is what this form does that
other media don't do, Cheryl. It's what Marshall McLuhan
called a cold medium."
Deena says, "Carolyn, a cold medium? which is cold, other
media or new media?"
Cheryl [to Carolyn]: I don't agree, I guess. I think this
medium has other things to offer besides interactivity --
including the potential of the cinematic to add meaning
to poetries
Simon says, "As well as interactivity I think that
programming is unique to this media. Making text follow
algorithms"
Carolyn says, "McLuhan was writing in the
60's -- he wanted to aspire to the 'cool'. The cool was
interactivity. Hot media were passive media like TV."
Deena hands round cool drinks that are hiper/hyper/more
hip than cold ones
E-mail break
Helen says, "(Does anyone know how to change
one's character's e-mail address?)"
cahoots [to Helen]: "@set me.email_address is newmail@me.com"
Keep meaning in mind
Deena says, "Good point--how can we as artists
and as readers keep meaning in mind as we design and explore
motion?"
Deena says, "Megan, I think the Hillman Curtis Stuff makes
a lot of sense...if we use this as metaphor, as meaning...it
is easy to get carried away in the look what I can do mode,
though..."
Simon says, "It's making that process as transparent
as possible"
Deena says, "Simon , good point. I don't want to think about
what the poem can do, I want to think about what it can
mean..."
Megan-S says, "Yes, I think we'll get beyond
that look what I can do. "
NM says, "What's 'this medium' again?"
[brick] says, "And making algorithms follow text"
Deena says, "Megan, what do you think it will take..."
cleo says, "The web/constantly new technology can be
very seductive, and distracting ... unless, of course, the
tech itself is the message ..."
Carolyn says, "The cinematic is not native to this medium,
but yes it does work with it well. "
Megan-S says, "Time"
Cheryl smiles at Megan
Deena hands round seductive sunglasses so we can all see
beyond the blinding light of look what I can do...
Simon says, "It works well but I find it
disappointing "
Deena gives Megan time again
Simon says, "I expect more"
Deena says, "Simon , find what disappointing?"
Simon says, "Just because I know it's possible"
Cheryl says, "There is so much more going on out there
besides look-at-me. ,...the way we're talking makes us sound
just as pessimistic as the non-digital crowd."
Carolyn says, "I agree, Simon "
NM says, "I find the use of techniques disappointing if
that's the main feature of a work"
Cheryl [to Simon]: again, I disagree -- I know Megan and
Iingrid say they are embaraased about the
Red Peppers piece, but Ithink it's the perfect example
of how deep and intense a poem using cinematic techniques
can be for this new media.
Cheryl says, "But I want to clarify and say that I
do find interactivity important for some works -- just not
that it has to be the end-all be-all of new media"
Players unmask themselves
cleo says, "[who is Cheryl? I've really liked
some of your comments..."
Cheryl [to cleo]: Cheryl ball
Simon says, "I find the use of cinematic techniques disappointing
if that is the main feature of a work on the whole"
Deena says, "Yes, will you guys please introduce yourselves?"
Cheryl [to cleo]: no one in particular ;)
[brick] is Dan Waber
Deena says, "Simon , can you give some examples?"
Carolyn says, "Tsk, tsk, Cheryl. Someone in particular,
please. "
Helen is Helen Whitehead of trAce
Helen is not a poet ;)
Deena is Deena Larsen, hypertext addict
megan-s says, "Is megan sapnar, poems that go"
cahoots is Jane Tandy, reader, writer and sometime performer
NM is Nick Montfort, known to use techniques once in a while
Carolyn says, "Carolyn Guertin, scholar of the new media
and curator of Assemblage, the women's new media gallery
at trAce"
cleo says, "Claire dinsmore,ed. of cauldron & net,
web-artist, etc."
Deena says, "HI N, we are talking about reading and interacting
and creating poems that move.."
n arrives.
Can tech be
the message?
[brick] says, "I think one should do
what the poem demands. if it is cinematic, so be it. if
not, so be it. To me the tech is just giving me a BIGGEST-ER
box of crayons."
Deena hands round the 64 and 128 set of crayolas everyone
wanted as a kid, and takes a big whiff of tech.
Deena says, "Cleo, all,do you have examples where the tech
itself is the message? what would this look like?"
Simon says, "Um, not of the top of my head. I guess
I've seen enough cinematic Flash animations in my time.
I'm not saying they never work but there is an element of
cliche creeping in that needs to be overcome"
cleo says, "Well, a lot of 'trad.' web
art - jodi or something. i would call that 'concrete poetry,'
though others may beg to differ ... i mean tech as subject,
that is."
Simon says, "I agree cleo"
A poem should just be--Ars
Poetica
megan-s says, "Who said " a poem should
just be"?"
---------------------------------Everdeen----------------------------------
Ars Poetica
A poem should be palpable and mute
As a globed fruit
Dumb
As old medallions to the thumb
Silent as the sleeve-worn stone
Of casement ledges where the moss has grown -
A poem should be wordless
As the flight of birds
A poem should be motionless in time
As the moon climbs
Leaving, as the moon releases
Twig by twig the night-entangled trees,
Leaving, as the moon behind the winter leaves,
Memory by memory the mind -
A poem should be motionless in time
As the moon climbs
A poem should be equal to:
Not true
For all the history of grief
An empty doorway and a maple leaf
For love
The leaning grasses and two lights above the sea -
A poem should not mean
But be
-- Archibald MacLeish
Deena says, "I love that last line---a poem
should not mean but be--don't agree, think there should
be meaning, but I can see that. "
Deena says, "Maybe the movement in these poems should just
*be* too..."
Last thoughts
Deena says, "Our time is nearly up. Megan,
all, are there burning thoughts you gotta get out about
potery that moves? Exhortations to readers, writers, interested--or
disinteresting passer bys?"
nm says, "Exhort us"
megan-s says, "No burning thoughts, but I had fun listening"
[brick] says, "Potery! I love that"
Helen rolls a jug and plate around - pottery that moves
Cheryl says, "I love this stuff. too much fun!"
Nicki says, "Does poetry that potters count?"
Carolyn says, "Thanks for the chat. Next time I'll wear
my wallflower suit. "
Deena says, "Ahh, Helen reminds us that this
is the first of a new series--we have changed our format
somewhat. this chat is part of a larger effort in the Live
Forum, which features an article by Peter Howard, discussion
on that article, and this chat will be logged and you can
comment and change it as welll.."
Deena gives everyoe a poettery/potter set to move us in
the right directions and fire us up
megan-s says, "Thanks for inviting me"
Deena says, "And everyone can share URLs
by emailing them to me or quickly typing them here.."
Helen says, "Post your favourite poems that move in the
forums at
http://trAce.ntu.ac.uk/forums"
nm shares a URL. (http://www.yhchang.com/)
Deena says, "NM, what is that URL for..."
nm says, "In case anyone wants to see some interesting literary
Flash work on their way out..."
Cheryl says, "Nice to see/hear everyone
again (it's been a while since i MOOed). Gotta go before
my dial-up cuts me off. :) Till next time."
Carolyn says, "I keep hearing good things about poems that
go. "
Simon says, "Heavy industries is great"
cleo says, "I meant to say "Net
art," not web art --as a school, not a genre."
megan-s says, "Thanks carolyn, we're working on it...
like all of us I suppose"
Carolyn says, "Thanks all. "
Carolyn says, "Bye now. "
megan-s says, "Bye everyone"
Simon says, "Bye all"
megan-s has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove megan-s.
Simon has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Simon.
Deena says, "Leads a round of heartfelt applause for
our guests Tom and MEgan"
cahoots says, "Bye all"
nm says, "Bye everyone"
Carolyn has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Carolyn.
Everdeen waves bye and thanks!
Deena claps and hoorays
nm has disconnected.
Everdeen goes home.
Deena passes out parting glasses of genius
[brick] takes one in a togo cup
cahoots leaves.
cleo says, "Is Helen still here?"
Helen says, "Hi Claire"
Deena says, "Thanks so much Megan! your cut
and pasting was terrific!"
Deena smiles at all her hard work!
Deena says, "Please look on trAce
and ELO tomorrow for the log..."
Nicki says, "Bye all"
Nicki goes home.
Deena says, "Thanks for all your wonderful insights!"
[brick] wonders off...good to see you all (some again)
[brick] says bye
Deena says, "Dan, please email me at textra@chisp.net...we'll
do something"
Deena says, "Thanks all for coming!"
[brick] already did
[brick] winks
Deena winks back...
The housekeeper arrives to remove [brick].
Helen says, "Great chat, thanks to all"
-- End log: Sunday, October 20, 2002 4:03:35 pm CDT
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