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Session Start: Sun Feb 04 20:39:07 2001
[20:39] *** Now talking in #trace
[20:39] *** Topic is 'Meet Talan Memmott: a 20-minute interview followed by questions from the floor and discussion.'
[20:39] *** Set by Helen_Whitehead on Sun Feb 04 20:16:34
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[20:39] *** Armele_Adams is now known as armele
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[20:43] Helen: Hi Talan, we're just preparing to greet you!
[20:43] Talanm: hold on... only half here... preparing... BRB.... :)
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[20:44] * mez fumbles a dream ridden hello:)
[20:46] * mez fingers the air, her headthorts beaming quickly thru the cerebrosphere...
[20:46] mez: hey helen:)
[20:46] Helen: am just flicking through Lexia to Perplexia again, something different every time..
[20:46] mez: yeah, its one of those 4 sure
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[20:54] * mez inserts cheers, and hears a lilting bell whis][tle][per...
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[20:56] Marjorie Luesebrink: lots of comings and goings, too
[20:56] mez: ello shelley
[20:56] Helen: Hello Shelley! Glad you could make it today
[20:57] Marjorie Luesebrink: hey Shelley
[20:57] Sue: Hi Shelley - I'm very pleased you can make it
[20:57] jbushnell: "Is this chat going to be get transcribed somewhere?
[20:57] Helen: yes, there'll be a published log on both trAce and elo
[20:57] Sue: yes, I am logging it and I bet Helen is too - and Talan?
[20:57] Shelley Jackson: hello! almost didn't make it.
[20:57] jbushnell: "Or should I get a pen?
[20:57] * Helen giggles
[20:57] * R_Adams wanders back into the room with his coffee and says hello
[20:57] Sue: yes please do get a pen!
[20:57] Talanm: Ok... now I am in the building...
[20:58] * Helen offers sushi and canapes round
[20:58] * mez revolves, a spinning doorw][eight][ay, a wunderbarish crooning moving thru the l][ingual][ines
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[20:58] * jbushnell goes to get a pen
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[20:58] Shelley Jackson: shelley blows her nose, AGAIN
[20:58] Helen: Welcome Chris
[20:58] Helen: Deena is having problems connecting today
[20:58] Helen: a cold, shelley?
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[20:59] Marjorie Luesebrink: ah, I hope she didn't have to go to Kinko's this time - they are probably ready to rent her a bed!
[20:59] * mez picks an errant st][ring][ang of flesh and m][outh][elts...
[20:59] Shelley Jackson: I am deeply involved with phlegm
[20:59] *** Armele_Adams is now known as armele
[20:59] Sue: well, you can't escape the body even in cyberspace
[21:00] Marjorie Luesebrink: we shall try, tho
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[21:00] Marjorie Luesebrink: hello Deena
[21:00] Sue: well done deena!
[21:00] Helen: hi deena, glad you got here!
[21:00] * mez offers deena a handshake m.bided with the word "hello"
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[21:01] mez: LOKI!!!
[21:01] Chris Wilson: Pleased to meet you all!
[21:01] Loki93C: in the (virtual) fleah :-)))
[21:01] Aremele:
[21:01] Sue: hi Chris - glad you could come
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[21:01] * mez spins a s][ilicon][dance step, static mounds of hellos flipping drom her lips
[21:01] Helen: OK, let's wait a couple more minutes.
[21:02] * Loki93c_ waves at all present
[21:02] Sue: hi loki!
[21:02] Helen: While we're waiting for stragglers, Deena and I would like to organise this week's chat as follows: an introduction to Talan, and his work, and a few questions, and then we'll throw it open to the floor. How doea that sound?
[21:02] Talanm: couple more minutes couple more cups o' coffee, quickly, folled by a red bull chaser...
[21:02] * mez monitors][keyboards, N mouses][ her emo.ti][ng!][cons
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[21:03] * mez ob.serves, ob.lates, and w][ait][eights
[21:03] * JeremyB is agreeable to Helen's plan
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[21:04] * Helen b[l]ows to mez
[21:04] * armele refills her glass
[21:04] Helen: Let's see if deena can get back!
[21:04] * mez filahs a circuitry note 2 helen, scribed with a packette tone][r][ of thx...
[21:05] Talanm: sue -- yes, logging...
[21:05] Helen: one of them is bound to survive....
[21:05] Sue: Talan - good :)
[21:06] Helen: OK, perhaps we should start... slowly till deena gets in!
[21:07] Armele: sounds good
[21:07] Talanm: ok...
[21:07] Shelley Jackson: *sniff. sniff.
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[21:07] mez: helloah liz;0
[21:07] Helen: I want to very warmly welcome talan memmott, winner of the 2nd trAce Alt-X new media Competition with lexia to perplexia
[21:07] Elizabeth: Hi Mez, and all
[21:07] Talanm: glad to be here!
[21:07] Helen: Talan is an artist & writer from San Francisco, edits the ejournal Beehive, and is also in the commercial web business
[21:08] Helen: He's younger than me but I won't say by how much :)
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[21:08] * elizabeth applauds
[21:08] Helen: Hi Deena, welcome back
[21:08] Helen: Sop congratulations to Talan for his well-deserved win!
[21:08] Helen: (not a sop actually!)
[21:08] Deena Larsen: :runs in panting on a neighbor's computer
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[21:08] Helen: trAce last spoke to you, Talan, in March last year
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[21:09] Helen: about your work as web writer and editor, when we invented the immortal new description of web-specific art/lit as
[21:09] Helen: eb-sork
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[21:10] Helen: Today we'll focus a little more on the prizewinning piece L2P. but first Talan, tell us a little about how you came to web-art, your background?
[21:10] Talanm: Coming to web-art... well it is more of a merging of various practices I was already involved in...
[21:11] Helen: art -- writing -- eprformance?
[21:11] Talanm: Painting, writing, and writing code, mixed with theory, and an unexplainable urge to do unfocused research in various areas...
[21:11] Helen: You have been something of a theorist as well
[21:11] Helen: which shows in your work
[21:11] * mez f][r][izz][on][es N ][william][burroughs in2 thought, x.][text][tracting.....
[21:12] Helen: How did L2P come to be? Did it evolve from previous work?
[21:13] Talanm: Theory and fiction merge in my work, in Lexia to Perplexia... The piece is part of a larger group of works...
[21:13] Helen: so we have more delight to come?
[21:13] Talanm: which include Reasoned Metagoria, A Machicolated Body, Delivery MAchine 01, and Delimited MEshings...
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[21:14] Helen: the criteria for this competition asked for innovative writing style, conceptual design unique to the medium and groundbreaking webdesign and navigation L2P is much more than just text and image on a screen....
[21:14] Helen: a true hypermedia experience
[21:14] Talanm: Delimited Meshings isn't out yet... But the others are all online... There is a new work, a next work -- Translucidity:here-there-elsewhere...
[21:14] Helen: where will that be?
[21:15] Helen: or is it too soon to say....
[21:15] Helen: when?
[21:15] Helen: how long does it take you to produce a work like L2P
[21:15] Talanm: well, I think L2P takes an application approach in its formation... It is a package... and operates within itself, theough the interaction of the user... it is an abstraction that cannot be abstracted from itself...
[21:16] Talanm: translucidity --- no date, location yet... still in the works.... delimited meshings will be at Cauldron and Net
[21:16] Helen: Does it come to you as a whole or do you work on the elements separately? I know that you don't see a disctinction between the elements -- even the click of the mouse is part of the "reading"
[21:17] Talanm: L2P took about 9 months to complete... but the work is ongoing with the advent of Netscape 6 -- as much of the code must be revisited...
[21:17] Helen: is that depressing or just a challenge?
[21:18] Talanm: The formation of the work comes out of a lot of PRE:media(t)ation.... It is formed together, or things grow out of other things...
[21:18] Talanm: Well, I got into writing for the ENDURANCE challenge... and proceeded to work on the same novel for 10 years...
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[21:19] Deena Larsen: Deena
[21:19] Helen: I liked Shelley's comment that "the reader's first pleasure will ... be ...visual" I find it a feast for the eyes, but there is more than just a text enhanced with images isn't there?
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[21:20] Talanm: Shelley's observations are accurate... in that the visuals, the interactions are used in a syntactic manner, as well as contributing to the self-narrativizing aspects of the work... It's all TEXT
[21:20] Helen: the images are text?
[21:21] Shelley Jackson: Do you think you've "found your form" by synthesizing these elements in the way you have, or...
[21:21] Shelley Jackson: Do you still write what you could call, uh, "pure" text?
[21:21] Talanm: I include images in my definition of text... I've said elsewhere that I sort of live by the notion the world is text...
[21:21] Helen: it's more of an "appliance" or "operation" than a pwriting on a screen...
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[21:22] Helen: the readers takes part in the work rather than reading it
[21:22] Talanm: I do still write "flat" texts... But, there is something in being able to extend the textual operations to a visual, performative level which I find intriguing...
[21:23] Helen: But this innovative approach has consequences for readability doesn't it?
[21:23] Armele: i like the idea of 'flat' texts
[21:23] Talanm: Yes, Helen -- an application... I am working on something else that goes into distinctions between Agent, Applicance and Apparatus -- but that is a longer term project...
[21:24] Helen: are the montage, placement and structure also text?
[21:24] Loki93C: somethings come up, i have 2 leave, night folks, great site talanM, congratulations!
[21:24] Talanm: yes --- MISE EN SCENE -- in the Artaudian sense....
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[21:25] Helen: "Artaud?"
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[21:25] mez: cya loki:)
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[21:26] Talanm: yes... One influence upon my work -- hypermedia or other -- is "The Theater and its Double." I think this book should be further examined for relevance in hypermedia
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[21:26] Sue: Talan, I have always been interested in the fact that you and many other web-artists have been chefs in your time!
[21:26] Talanm: I mean, text becomes environmental....
[21:27] Sue: Can you say something about the way you combine images and text in relation to the way you combine recipes?
[21:27] Helen: so the theater has something to teach hypermedia writers?
[21:27] Talanm: hmmmmmm.... From MISE EN SCENE to MISE EN PLACE....
[21:27] Shelley Jackson: This pertains to something I've been puzzling over: how to keep the (live) hypertext reading from becoming (your word) flat
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[21:28] Shelley Jackson: Seems to me there must be better ways to implicate the live readers/spectators in the text
[21:28] Sue: Have you read Brenda Laurel's book on computers as theatre? perhaps that is relevant here
[21:28] mez: can we jump in yet?
[21:28] Helen: But in including so much in the environment, it becomes difficult to read and sometimes even unreadable: as in the flashing text and superimpositions in L2P exe.termination
[21:28] Helen: yes, let's discuss this all of us
[21:28] Talanm: not sure better ways but OTHER ways... More ways... Why not...
[21:28] M_B: Good evening
[21:29] Helen: Hi M_B, we are discussing Talan's prizewinnig lexia to perplexia and whether the mixing of elements in the hypermedia is like 1) recipes 2) theater 3) difficult to read
[21:29] Talanm: exe.termination... the unreadability and functionality of the section is implied in the title to some degree...
[21:29] mez: shelley>>was going 2 say this is something i've been working on for a while now, engineering "flat" text into a live hypertextual x.perience...
[21:30] Sue: NickMontfort is here - one of the runner up writers - and he can tell us about performing text, can't you Nick?
[21:30] Helen: Talan's works are probably the least flat examples I have ever read
[21:30] Armele: interested in the idea of mise en scene, subverting the accepted web scene
[21:31] Helen: The unreadability itself has meaning in the context of the text?
[21:31] Nick Montfort: Hi, I guess I find it interesting to pervert established formats, both in performance and in on-Web display
[21:31] mez: ...taking the word and x.tending 2 it a revamped meaning threshold...
[21:31] Armele: the only way to move on
[21:31] Nick Montfort: "Hence a government-report-like document lends itself to a press-conference treatment. But I don't think that approach extends to every project.
[21:31] mez: sure nick, agreed
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[21:32] Sue: It would be very possible I think for Talans work to be interpreted by a contemporary dance group
[21:32] Sue: I would like to see that
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[21:32] mez: hey joel:0
[21:32] mez: * mez sees the network shiver, a static round of sets N rules written in2 irc]
[ellular]
[s
[21:32] Marjorie Luesebrink: hey Joel, so sorry I missed your chat last week. the flu bug
[21:32] Joel Weishaus: Sorry I got here so late
[21:33] Sue: this leads me to ask - should we be working harder to intergrate new media work with other artforms so it can be seen in other spaces?
[21:33] Armele: yes
[21:33] Marjorie Luesebrink: the thing about breaking the rules is - what rules are we talking about? Print? Web? are there any?
[21:33] Talanm: I am interested in that sort of trans-mediation as well Sue... as dance, as lecture, as hypertext...
[21:33] Helen: I wish I had been able to see the Incubation presentation od L2P on three whiteboards
[21:34] Armele: there are implied rules, that are not necessarily unbreakable
[21:34] *** Marna_Schwartz is now known as Marna
[21:34] Sue: In my expereince one of the problems is that webby people understand web and nonwebby people, frankly, do not - so what they try to convey as webby work is never accurate - we need a merging of understanding
[21:34] * mez holds up her hands, m][onit.ore][arble keys g.lowing][with a soft buttered sound][
[21:34] Armele: but aren't arty webby people usually cross platform?
[21:34] Deena2: :enters handing out spider webs to all
[21:34] Joel Weishaus: Maybe we're working for the next generation who grew up on the web?
[21:34] Sue: armele, no they're not
[21:35] Sue: Joel, i think you may be right
[21:35] Helen: Joel, you certainly have a point
[21:35] Armele: all the geeks i know come from art background rather than techies
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[21:35] Joel Weishaus: And this is good, to think a generation ahead.
[21:35] Helen: but some of the best web artists are, how can one put it delicately, not necessarily young?
[21:35] * mez hands sue a template, con.struc.ted of cracked screens and ribboned marble veins, a scribe of m]
[edia new]
[eaning
[21:35] Sue: Talan - is there much development here in S Francisco - aafter all, you are living at the cutting edge of tech art!
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[21:35] Joel Weishaus: Yes Helen: we are a bridge .
[21:35] * Sue teehees at Helen
[21:35] Deena2: "I'd like to hear what people think about the dynamics of the web- are people changing more websites to deal with the dynamic c
[21:36] Deena2: code nature of the web?
[21:36] Marjorie Luesebrink: yes, and many of them aren't familair with the old rules, and see their reification as new stuff, sometimes
[21:36] Sue: someone pointed out to me at Incubation that most of the main speakers had grey hair!!!!!
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[21:36] M_B: nick Mike
[21:36] * mez b.ridges the gap, buttons the codes, solv][ent][s the s][ilicon][trand....
[21:36] Joel Weishaus: Or no hair
[21:36] Helen: but satill, when non-webby people ask for websites, they think STATIC, magazines on the web
[21:36] Sue: yes joel - even no hair
[21:36] Talanm: some signs of support are starting to appear -- SFMOMA... but, in general, my work is invisible to local powers that be...
[21:36] *** M__B is now known as Mike
[21:37] Nick Montfort: "We're not really all just interested in numbers, are we -- writing Web bestsellers? I mean, we have readers or readerships we want to reach, it's not just 'as many people as possible.'
[21:37] Sue: absolutely, Nick
[21:37] Joel Weishaus: But Talan, is it a good sign when institutions begin to support an art?
[21:37] Marjorie Luesebrink: Talan, your work may not be known in traditional circles, but perhaps that is because you aren't doing what they are, either.
[21:37] Helen: yet we think of california as leading-edge in so many things
[21:37] * mez Signs Taticile Actuals Till Identity Clicks ][and links][
[21:38] Shelley Jackson: There are all sorts of cross-platform communication problems. One of my complaints is that I am always having to explain my web projects to readers who seem unaware that there is a context in experimental writing, already, for the things I am doing
[21:38] Marjorie Luesebrink: ha! loss of eneergy, for one.
[21:38] Sue: yes shelley absolutely
[21:38] Shelley Jackson: That long predates the web, I mean.
[21:38] Nick Montfort: "Some of those people might be in museums, for some of us, and others might be sitting and reading Nabokov now.
[21:38] Helen: when we started on a project involving a museum exhibition my friends said "oh good, something real for a change!"
[21:38] Sue: but that's a problme of experimental work, period
[21:38] Talanm: the support is a kind of erosion, the sign of a transition (perhaps generational) to the electrate.... I am certainly not against it... And, sometimes fiund it quite amusing when the Institutions are blind to the "real" work on the web...
[21:38] Helen: margie, yes, unfortunately i guess that's true
[21:38] mez: joel>> i've written about this b4, i think when an institution begins a cohesive action to support an m.mergent genre then there is a distinct danger of a new and more restrictive canon b-in formed...
[21:38] Marjorie Luesebrink: yes, sue, always.
[21:39] Armele: what constitutes 'real'?
[21:39] Sue: this is real :)
[21:39] Deena2: "What do people see as expectations on the web and how do these differ from experimental writing expectations?
[21:39] Joel Weishaus: Also, Mez, they think it's not a threat to them.
[21:39] Helen: would the exponents of "golden age of hypertext" recognise Talan's work as going beyond "hyper"text
[21:39] * mez hears an echo, an erudite's s][l][ong][ing][, picked apart and lying die-sect][ion][ated
[21:40] mez: sure joel
[21:40] Sue: thats a good question helen
[21:40] Armele: for me web work is more real than site based work as it can potentially reach more people...so there..
[21:40] Sue: what do people think?
[21:40] Talanm: have they seen it..?
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[21:40] Armele: the idea that something doesn't exist if no one sees it
[21:40] mez: it depends on yr definition helen, wot category of webart yr talking about...
[21:40] Deena2: "armele, others, who are we trying to reach? and how does the web figure into this?
[21:40] Helen: we have certainly invited them to, Talan!
[21:40] Marjorie Luesebrink: is the question whether or not web work is real? is that it?
[21:41] Armele: people who would enjoy work, who can access from home/work rather than travelling to a site
[21:41] Mike: I saw it but I got a few glitches on it
[21:41] Deena2: "Helen, I wonder about that. I think that we see lots of golden age elements in Talan's work: the montage, the linking and structure.
[21:41] Helen: when netscape 6 came along and so much work became unreadable and "lost" we felt it was not real, didn't we?
[21:41] mez: ...i make net.art ][like my performance lines are here][, but talan's work may be relegated 2 another aspect of wot we umbrella term new media/lectronic/digital art...
[21:41] Deena2: "Marjorie, what do we mean by real here?
[21:41] Deena2: "Is lost work real?
[21:41] Shelley Jackson: this "real" question is freakin' me out
[21:42] Nick Montfort: "Whatever the real might be, you can always be phenomenological about it. If people see you work and they act differently, it changes their outlook on life, that's real. Whether you can touch the work or not doesn't matter much.
[21:42] mez: how so shelley?
[21:42] Helen: mez, that was at the heart of the competition, what are we judging here? what do people call their "art", and how do they describe themselves?
[21:42] Nick Montfort: "you work = your work
[21:42] Deena2: "Shelley, did you see a lot of expectations and play in the works for the contest?
[21:42] Sue: It does seem that we often end up discussing 'what is real' and I wonder why we do that? I mean, we all know the answer
[21:43] Helen: Nick -- a great definition: if it touches people and changes something in them, then it is real "art"
[21:43] mez: sure helen, and that's an s.sue that is anxtremely m.portant 1, considering the genredirection that net/web art is now undergoing....
[21:43] Shelley Jackson: Deena, not sure what your question means
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[21:43] Joel Weishaus: We make up reality as we go along.
[21:43] Deena2: "Nick, that is a great definition because it short circuits the temporality question
[21:43] Shelley Jackson: There was certainly a variety of projects
[21:43] Armele: is it bcos other see the net as 'unreal'
[21:43] Deena2: "Let me get at it another way: who were the audiences for these works?
[21:43] Armele: it's just a question of time...
[21:44] Helen: was Tracey Emin's unmade bed "real"? that was a major discussion too
[21:44] Deena2: :hands out webbed watches to all
[21:44] * mez n.velops the text, a golden thread of reality unravelling in her arms...
[21:44] Armele: you could touch it, (although not strictly allowed)
[21:44] Helen: but it was just a bed, not art...
[21:45] Helen: (so the comments went)
[21:45] * deena2 is it the artifact or the experience that makes it real?
[21:45] Sue: I'd like to alert you to the fact that this log will be sent to a Wired journalist
[21:45] Armele: that's a whole other discussion, britart is a sham
[21:45] Sue: in that context - what do you want her to know ?
[21:45] Helen: ok, point taken, a different discussion
[21:45] * mez retrograde N gravels the net.art p][innacle][ath...
[21:45] Helen: i find it odd to have become an "artist" because "writer" isn't a good enough description any more
[21:45] Sue: what are the most important things we want to say to Wired readers about the state of net art today?
[21:45] Marjorie Luesebrink: Deena, I wasn't asking the question, I was asking if it WAS the question. The Web seems to me to be like any other performance venue, with an audeince of some duration, a space to enact, and a time frame.
[21:45] Armele: bcos 'writing' has changed
[21:46] Joel Weishaus: I called Talan a philosopher for our time, as I beleive that the philosophy of a project is very important.
[21:46] Deena2: "Thanks Sue. MJ Rose is interested in the e-literature and e-artist aspects: How do we think these works differ from ebooks, and other kindso f works on the web?
[21:46] Helen: but there were MANY excellent descriptions of new medi art/writing. Personally I like Talan's rich.lit
[21:46] Sue: Joel - I think this is very important
[21:46] * mez n.itializes, a text based cord surrounding text, an acuated wandering.....
[21:46] Sue: Many web-based artists are writing about the way the web changes consciousness
[21:46] Deena2: "What is new media art/writing
[21:46] Talanm: joel - can i use that :)
[21:46] Armele: was blake an artist or writer?
[21:47] Deena2: "Marjorie, I guess I hadn't thought about the web as a performance venue. More of a communication venue ala the book.
[21:47] Sue: Yes, Blake would have been very into the web, I'm sure
[21:47] * deena2 undergoes a painful paradigm shift
[21:47] Sue: I think of William Morris too - an artisan
[21:47] Joel Weishaus: "Lots of projects aren't thought about long and deep enough BEFORE they're begun, like a novel is.
[21:47] mez: deena> its an @.tempt.ting 2 evoke a constructed reader/writer that is flavoured by technology...
[21:47] Sue: To make good web art to have to know the craft
[21:47] Armele: weird sue, me too!
[21:47] Helen: Hypertext : active text : web-specific writing : new media work : new media writing : net literature : Net Art : feminist hypermedia : poetry-multimedia installation : web integrated writing : moving poetry : storytelling : multimedia : hypertext poem : net-art-writing : Linguistic Aestheticism : journalism : new horizon breakthrough idea exposition : internet based narrative : net.art : Possible Art : hyperfiction : Interactive Fiction : Hypertext Fiction : hypermedia : digital literature : lit
[art]ure :
[21:47] Sue: armele - it's obvious really, isnt it?
[21:48] Marjorie Luesebrink: well, I think of a book as a performance. it takes longer, it has a differernt venue, and it has a different permanence, but it is yet a persfromance by the writer.
[21:48] Mike: Helen, can you repeat that?
[21:48] Deena2: "Mez, Talan, you both work so much with the idea of the media as an object, as something both reader and writer engage.
[21:48] Talanm: 2 from the interview --- Nomolectic Electrature, Appliterature
[21:48] Joel Weishaus: It's fascinating that no one really knows what to call their profession anymore!
[21:48] Sue: But wait - all these new words put a lot of people off
[21:48] * Helen offers Deena a healing aromatic oil and ewonders if that's one of the insights fro Wired
[21:48] Sue: how can we be clearer when we try to communicate what we do?
[21:49] * mez catches a grit of the past, a genre bound by power n packet driven cords, a sense of the static..
[21:49] JeremyB: "I like Kodwo Eshun's use of 'concept engineer' instead of 'writer,' although I suspect that doesn't help with Sue's issue...
[21:49] Talanm: we have to look at inferability in terms, open them up rather than close them down to a single definition...
[21:49] Helen: post-ultra modern digital art : public literature : Net-narrative : community art : net-essays : cyberpoetry : Digital Exploration : mutations :digital narrative : Net-specific hypermedia poetry : Hypermedia Literature : revolutionary web-specific writing : hypermedia poetry : interactive literature : randomly created web narrative : interactive poetry : Art : Proximism : Theater of Consciousness : Poetry : Confrontationalism : InterMedia Theater : Hyper-Essay : Informational Sculpture :
[21:49] Joel Weishaus: "Sue: Why do we need to be clear?
[21:49] Deena2: "How would the idea of web as medium work with the idea of web as performance venue?
[21:49] Sue: well, i am very fond of 'imagineer' but that probably doesnt help eithre!
[21:49] * mez commun][al][ N ][repl][icates
[21:49] Marjorie Luesebrink: spare me from being a concept provider, geez. it's more than that to write a greeting card poem
[21:50] Shelley Jackson: There is the wee problem with multimedia that the media, to the extent you can tell them apart, don't all equally contribute to the work. What I loved about Talan's piece was...
[21:50] Helen: thes things are all MUCH MORE than ebooks, which are merely written
[21:50] Sue: Joel, we dont have to be clear, but it helps us help people to understand
[21:50] Shelley Jackson: that you COULDN"T tell them apart
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[21:50] Joel Weishaus: Clarity of purpose is for grantwriting, not art.
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[21:50] Helen: Talan, how do you see the interaction with the reader in your work? How do you expect the reader to respond in ways different from reading a book?
[21:50] Sue: Joel - do you really think so? hmm
[21:50] Marjorie Luesebrink: good point, Shelley. have you looked at the code on L2P, incredible.
[21:51] mez: my prefered term is "netwurker"; it e.vo][cates][kes the idea of communicating/creating/x.pressing via the network, that the resultant work uses the tendrils of communication intrinsically...
[21:51] Joel Weishaus: Yes, although it goes against my grain.
[21:51] Deena2: "RIght. How does the interaction with the reader differ with the media?
[21:51] Talanm: The book doesn't really touch Lexia.... Neither does the page really....
[21:51] Mike: congratulations Talan,
[21:51] Sue: I am a novelist - if I'm not clear about what I'm writing, how can my reader ever understand it?
[21:51] JeremyB: "Joel-- what about manifestos? Aren't they a sort of artistic statement of purpose?
[21:51] Helen: (these were not my inventions, but the ways the entrants to the New media Writing Comp described their work)
[21:52] Armele: sue, what you write may have multiple meanings
[21:52] Elizabeth: (I liked 'Poetry' Helen!)
[21:52] Joel Weishaus: I don't mean the work, I mean who you are, what you do, how you define yourself, because this is alrays in flux.
[21:52] Deena2: "Helen, Sue, SHelley, I am so glad that you let the entrants describe themselves. What a wealth of different self reflections!
[21:52] * mez ][wo][man.ifests N di.jests][its all in good fun:)][
[21:52] Sue: yes armele, but pure stream of consciuousness, in my humble opinion, is pretty boring
[21:52] Sue: oh joel - ok, we are talking at cross purposes here
[21:53] Armele: it's difficult, has to be dited
[21:53] Talanm: The User is engaged with an appication that is telling the story of the user's engagement with the application....
[21:53] Deena2: "How do the rest of you see interactions with readers differing with different media?
[21:53] Armele: edited
[21:53] * mez XXrosses, x.amining the burn point][allistic][s, revaluing the cross comm's worth
[21:53] Sue: Joel - I agree that those kinds of definitions are best left to others, yes :)
[21:53] Helen: yes Talan, it is self-referential, so the narrative does not exist without the reader?
[21:53] * deena2 mind whirls with the self-reflected vicious cycles here
[21:54] Joel Weishaus: Talan, yes. All writing is autobiography.
[21:54] Deena2: "How does the application define itself?
[21:54] mez: deena> i think it's dependent on the accessibilty quotient, the level the creator wants 2 m.plicate in the work itself, whether the meaning curve is set at a high or traditional lvl...
[21:55] Elizabeth: I was wondering thoug Talan whether you would ever also address a 'subject' that wasn't so tightly self-referential?
[21:55] Marna: I agree with you, Sue. Emotions are evoked by the specific. Semantic ambiguity is food for the head.
[21:55] Deena2: "Yet. going back to Nick's definition of real where the reader is touched, maybe all work is about the user's/readers engagement with the application/book/performance
[21:55] Sue: yes marna
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[21:55] Talanm: not autobiographical... It is an ontological game with the Internet as apparatus, the application as technology base, the applicationas content, and the user as inter-actor, in the operations of the conduit.... this is both the theory and operations of L2P
[21:56] mez: deena>> i think n.ga][u][ge.ment is the key phrase here....
[21:56] mez: intr.Actor, as i say, talan:)
[21:57] Helen: yes, new media, hypermedia, whatever we call it, offers enhanced opportunities for engagement by the reader, compared with the traditional book
[21:57] Joel Weishaus: Sounds like animism, Talan
[21:57] Deena2: "Yes, the user is the inter-actor. Is the application the outer or inner actor?
[21:57] mez: does the game m.phasis x.tend the meaning talan? does 4 me....
[21:57] Talanm: a Narcisystem....
[21:57] Helen: i like that..
[21:58] Deena2: "HOw does the web performance differ from other kinds of electronic performances? do users bring different expectations of interaction and engagement--like rapod clicking and loading?
[21:58] * mez sees play as the key, the c][l][ue-in point, the c][usp][urve....
[21:58] Shelley Jackson: mez, yes.
[21:58] * deena2 hands out narcissus buds and self referential mirrors to all
[21:59] Talanm: I think so mez... or that was certainly the intent...
[21:59] * Helen tops up the glasses to fortify the discussion
[21:59] Joel Weishaus: So nacisystem stands for narcotic-system. And we are users?
[21:59] Helen: Talan has been a code-addict, and I suspect others here today are too
[21:59] Deena2: /me has a wild image of the applications and media as narcotics and runs screaming...
[21:59] Marjorie Luesebrink: the game analogy fits, too, with sports, for example. A baseball game requires a certain amount of interaction--and when it is over, it is still real.
[21:59] mez: i think if we can snag a intrActor's attn, in a way that seems 2 break apart predicted notions of meaning absorption without b-ing overtly threatening, then that's fantastic...a play lead in is wunderbar....
[22:00] Talanm: could...... But in Delimited Meshings it is Narcisys (narcissus).... which is a reiteration of the narcissus - echo theme in L2P
[22:00] Shelley Jackson: Extending our def. of reading to include all sorts of attentive behaviors
[22:00] Joel Weishaus: The flower was a narcotic.
[22:00] Deena2: "mez, this goes back to breaking apart traditional expectations. are there expectations of reading behavior that are specific to the web
[22:00] Marjorie Luesebrink: yes, Shelley, good idea. attention is golden
[22:00] * deena2 runs back for her herbal
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[22:01] Deena2: "Talan, how would you have written this differently for a "live performance"?
[22:01] mez: deena>> n.deed, s.pecially given the his][her][story of the genre...that fragmented juxtaposed meaning filament, the additive infocurve that we use thru the click or link, the behaviour we display when using a browser/viewer all combines...
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[22:02] mez: hey loss:)
[22:02] Deena2: "Hi Loss, we are talking about the interactions and meaning in engaging the media in web based works
[22:02] greetings!
[22:02] Helen: May I, now that our official hour is up (though I doubt the conversation will die down!) thank Talan for his inspirational work, and his attendance here today
[22:02] Sounds great!
[22:03] Marjorie Luesebrink: many thanks Talan, cheer. Hi Loss!
[22:03] & congrats to Talan!
[22:03] Hi!
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[22:03] Talanm: Well, the hypermedia piece could become source material for a somewhat abstract play, a short film, a dance... The text itself could be read from, in certain more tangible areas.... Or it could be delivered as a lecture,. or performance lecture.... wide open...
[22:03] Sue: Congrats Talan!
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[22:03] Helen: Many congratulations Talan, on a prize well deserved, and I hope it brings you due notice
[22:03] Shelley Jackson: Thanks Talan.
[22:03] Sue: Talan i would like to see that
[22:03] Deena2: "Yes, going back, Talan, what is the main thing that audiences (such as wired) should know about your work?
[22:03] Joel Weishaus: Yes, thanks Talan for your genius
[22:04] Talanm: Thanks to all! :) I am happy L2P made the grade ! :)
[22:04] Deena2: "Sue, Helen, SHelley, what is the main thing you would want to tell WIred readers about the contest?
[22:04] Did Wired comment on Talan's work?
[22:04] Elizabeth: Hear hear Helen, and I hav to go but love L2P & v pleased to have seen a performanc manifestation at Incubation too.
[22:04] Deena2: "No, but they are going to do an article
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[22:04] That's great!
[22:04] Helen: And may we thank Shelley for her hard work in judging what was a terrific field
[22:05] Deena2: "On the 21rst we will talk with Christy Sanfield and FrAme writers here.
[22:05] * deena2 claps and applauds all around
[22:05] * Helen hopes the cold gets better quickly, too
[22:05] Shelley Jackson: There was an incredible variety of work; imagine comparing a baseball game to a sculpture to a short story to someone yelling at you in the street.
[22:05] Sue: Thanks Helen and Deena for the interview
[22:05] Shelley Jackson: Which is the most intense experience? Which is best?
[22:05] Sue: and that was only the shortlist!
[22:06] * deena2 imagines the depth and breadth and differences in engaging the reader and is thrilled
[22:06] Shelley Jackson: But Talan's project bent my brain
[22:06] Sue: I expect you are getting the same breadth in the ELO competition?
[22:06] * Helen would like to encourage everyone to read the shortlist
[22:06] Talanm: he he he
[22:06] Shelley Jackson: and I liked that.
[22:06] Marjorie Luesebrink: Great session Deena, Helen, Sue--many thanks
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[22:07] Shelley Jackson: Talan, remind me to ask you something about something
[22:07] Deena2: "There are still 11 days to enter the ELO contest!
[22:07] Deena2: "Go to http://www.eliterature.org and click on contest!
[22:07] Talanm: remind SJ about something about something.... ok...
[22:08] * deena2 passes out brain benders to all... and adds a bit of the narcisystem to them...
[22:08] Sue: Well I must go - thanks all for coming, congrats to Talan and thanks to Shelley
[22:08] Talanm: thanks sue!
[22:08] Nick Montfort: "Thanks Sue & Helen, and Talan.
[22:08] Sue: bye everyone
[22:08] mez: cya sue
[22:08] Joel Weishaus: I'm off too. Thanks everyone.
[22:08] Shelley Jackson: Thank you to everyone!
[22:08] Sue: and congrats to Nick for a great runner up!
[22:08] *** Mike has quit IRC (QUIT: .)
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[22:08] * deena2 passes out parting glasses
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[22:08] * Sue waves
[22:08] Shelley Jackson: Mez, if yr still there, email me.
[22:09] Nick Montfort: "Thanks, see you all later.
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[22:09] *** Nick_Montfort has quit IRC (QUIT: .)
[22:09] * deena2 we can chat here if you like to stay...
[22:10] Helen: the log will be available on trAce (on the competition site) as well as elo
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[22:11] Loss Glazier: And folks who submitted will be notified then, too.
[22:11] Deena2: "Hi Jo! we are cleaning up from a great chat but some are still here
[22:11] Jo Steffens: sorry i missed it. will there be a trascript?
[22:12] Deena2: "YEs, I will post the transcript at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/
[22:12] Deena2: No. sorry http://www.eliterature.org/com/index.shtml
[22:12] Deena2: "Loss, what is the URL for the Epoetry conference? and the dates?
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[22:13] Talanm: Thanks to everyone! have to run...
[22:13] Deena2: "We will be chatting with mez on april 1!"
[22:13] Deena2: "Thanks Talan!
[22:13] Helen: Bye Talan, many thanks for coming
[22:13] Loss Glazier: Buffalo, New York, April 19-21, 2001
[22:13] JeremyB: "Goodbye-- and congratulations.
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[22:13] Loss Glazier: Congrats, Talan!
[22:14] Deena2: "DAC is right after that April 25-30 at Brown
[22:14] Marna: bye Talan! Congratulations!
[22:14] Deena2: "Yes, congrats Talan!
[22:14] Loss Glazier: Yes, the following weekend.
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[22:15] mez: ok, i'd better go start some work. thx all, and i'll c u all april 1st
[hopefully]. thx for the chat:)
[22:16] *** mez has left #trace
[22:16] Helen: Bye mez, thanks for your input!
[22:16] Deena2: "Whew! there is a lot of stuff to consider here about media and interaction and engagement!
[22:16] JeremyB: "Time for me to get some work done... thanks for the afternoon.
[22:16] Helen: Bye Jeremy
[22:17] Deena2: "bye Jeremy
[22:17] Deena2: "Thanks for coming, all of you!
[22:17] JeremyB: "Hopefully I'll see some of you again-- this is my first time here
[22:17] Helen: do come again: next week we will be lighter and more social
[22:18] * JeremyB bows and vanishes
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[22:18] Deena2: "Right. the first and third sundays are program chats, and all others are light get togethers :)
[22:18] Deena2: :/me hands round warm bottles of Guinness
[22:19] Jo Steffens: cheers
[22:19] Jo Steffens: bye for now
[22:19] Helen: bye jo
[22:20] Deena2: "bye Jo
[22:20] Jo Steffens: ***jay0 Quit
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[22:21] *** Disconnected Session Close: Sun
Feb 04 22:25:01 2001 |
