Chat log [Sunday, 15th December 2002]

Chair: Kate Pullinger

Guest speakers: hypertext writer, Deena Larsen; critic and academic Rita Raley; and electronic author Rob Wittig.

<Kate_Pullinger> Well, thanks very much to everybody who has come along for this online seminar. Our guests tonight are Rob Wittig, Rita Raley, and Deena Larsen.

<Kate_Pullinger> I wanted to kick off by asking a question of our three guests.

And anyone else who cares to join in...

<RobWittig> k

<deena2_larsen2> :ready :)

<Rita_Raley> and waiting...

QUESTION NUMBER ONE:

<Kate_Pullinger> It strikes me - nine months into this research project - that most people, including readers, don't know much about new media writing.  Don't really know it exists. How can we bring new readers, new audiences, to new media writing?

<Andrew_Oldham> Is it a question of the reader being used to one format?

<deena2_larsen2> Boy, that is something we have struggled with for a long time. I think part of the answer now is merely in the culture of the digital age. I am working with severely intellectually disabled childeren in Melbourne. Most do not know how to tie their shoes. But they can point and click and use a computer.

<deena2_larsen2> I think we have to capitalize on this new knowledge--now almost everyone in the West knows how to use a computer--and say ok, here is what a computer can be used FOR.

<Andrew_Oldham> It's mazing that the fringes of society seem to be more advanced

<deena2_larsen2> Andrew, what do you mean by one format?

<RobWittig> A first reaction is to say that in a certain sense people DO know about new media writing in the large sense --- they do it every day in form of e-mail and web siteconsultation --- it's just that they don't connect it with "literary" forms of writing, which are still bound up in the image of a book

<Rita_Raley> Universities are of course a primary site of transmission - they sponsor research projects like trAce - but introducing digital media into literature curricula has and will do a great deal for the growth of the field and practice

<deena2_larsen2> Yeah, I have shown how to use new media techniques for remedial reading here and it has been a great success.

<Andrew_Oldham> Well, from a mainstream education pov the book is still king, it can be monitored and above all kept on a leash

<deena2_larsen2> Right Rob. How do we connect the daily computer use with literary forms of writing?

* ][mez][ ][abs][orbs + weights.

<Catherine Byron> Isn't texting a way that kids are getting into a new way of using 'writing' to communicate?

<Andrew_Oldham> then I've worked with groups, such as, special needs etc, and then the pov is do anything.

<RobWittig> Rita's right . . . I think a great deal of the audience-building issue has to do with teachers explicitly drawing a line between book lit and new media lit and saying "See? It's the SAME THING."

<Andrew_Oldham> which is sad

<deena2_larsen2> Rita, how do we introduce this to the literary curricula --are you talking inside or outside of universities?

<CarolynGuertin> Which causes so much confusion.

* ][mez][ txts + tucks comMOOnication in2 a rltivity bag

<Rita_Raley> I just taught a course of 35 students - at the beginning almost all were not only unfamiliar with ELit but quite skeptical - by the end almost all had completed an ELit project of their own.

<deena2_larsen2> Cath, what do you mean by texting?  I think kids don't see that much difference between print and digital culture--it is all converging.

<Kate_Pullinger> What is confusing Carolyn?

<Andrew_Oldham> SMS text on phones

<Kate_Pullinger> That's great Rita - why were they sceptical.

<Sue_Thomas> Deena, text messaging in the UK is much more prevalent than in the US - phone texting

<deena2_larsen2> Ahh. Yes, let's unleash the book then--

<CarolynGuertin> Hi Kate. This insistance on sameness, where it's actually a superficial kind of similarity

<RobWittig> Yeah, nice catch Carolyn. You're right.

<Andrew_Oldham> I think that's where education has fallen down, trying to tie new media in to the old media

<deena2_larsen2> Ok. Are there any forms of literature for texting?  Is anyone working on that field aspect?

<Kate_Pullinger> But doesn't Rob mean - look - there are stories here too?

<Sue_Thomas> I like Rob's suggesting that it's on the same continuum as email etc, so people just have to progress a teeny bit farther to reach it

<Catherine Byron> Deena, I mean text-messaging, and the brevity and creativity of it, plus the play aspect - text-poetry already feted in The Guardian (UK paper)

<Andrew_Oldham> Poetry has crossed over

<CarolynGuertin> Barrett Watten calls it the 'demon of analogy.'

<Rita_Raley> Kate, to my surprise, they did not want to read digital narratives OR e-poetries as 'literary'

* ][mez][ seeks + shifts//or.rhee.n.atation 2wards gamer r.het][y][oric + net.work mechanic.[*]isms

<deena2_larsen2> Yeah, trying to leash in the new media with the same rules as the old media...

<deena2_larsen2> Rita, who didn't

<Rita_Raley> so we had to speak often and at length about the criteria they use to evaluate texts - criteria particular to print media

<Andrew_Oldham> Doesn't work

<CarolynGuertin> What did they want, Rita.

<Sue_Thomas> Rita, if not literary, what did they say it was?

<Sue_Thomas> ah, ok re criteria

<Andrew_Oldham> It's the old form of snobbery

<deena2_larsen2> Oh that is terrific, Cath.  I would like to see some of that. And wasn't there a game/book done in Norway on text messages for phones?

<Kate_Pullinger> Deena - also phone companies are desperately trying to find ways of telling stories through the phone in order to get a fresh take on a saturated market here

<RobWittig> The *works* are not the *same* in a lot of ways . . . . but the PROJECT is the same, which I would define as a logic of 1) Writing is someone that lots of people do, 2) I'm going to try to do it EXCEPTIONALLY WELL, having been inspired by others in the past who have done it EXCEPTIONALLY WELL . . . or something like that

<Rita_Raley> well they often did not move beyond the negative - 'this is not poetry' and that sort of thing. They tended to see dynamic text in particular as filmic

<Andrew_Oldham> Well they panned film when it came out

<Cath> Rita - I like the 'filmic'

<Sue_Thomas> ah but what is exceptionally well in this context? pretty pictures with your poem?

<deena2_larsen2> Texting sounds like a great entryway to introduce new media...

<RobWittig> Or am I way off, Carolyn?

* ][mez][ pond.ahs mobility + re][ader][ceptivity in terms of narrow.tiff

<Sue_Thomas> Deena, really texting is nothing to do with new media in my opinion, it's just short messages, like msn messenger

<deena2_larsen2> Good point, mez. What is the reader receptivity like for texting?

<Kate_Pullinger> Welcom Guest09188 - you can change your name below, it's easy.

<Andrew_Oldham> But what about the development in texting eg create your own language

<CarolynGuertin> Hm. I think it's more like plot-driven writing and the avant-garde. This is another fringe, another edge where experimentation happens. In some ways, therefore, the impulse for writing can be quite different.

<Cath> But Sue, texting is growing into a real creative field

<Sue_Thomas> yes but i'm not sure if it plugs into the same areas as new media writing - just my thought - might be wrong

<Andrew_Oldham> you can't dismiss it, the phone is probably still more widely used as a communicative medium

<Kate_Pullinger> So, to summarise - you reach new audiences by showing them the work and engaging their interest on that level?

<RobWittig> Yes, you're right. There are parallel traditions of "writing as something special"

<CarolynGuertin> Texting is apparently even developing its own language.

<Cath> I am reminded of the idea of the minisaga, a complete novel in 50 words - v pop form about ten years ago

<][mez][> reader receptivity d.pends on variables not yet factored in2 traditional, canonistic based crit + e.valuations...we seem so mired in the literary without taking in2 account the ver character.istics that d.fine + demark.cate this form[ulation]...

<Sue_Thomas> I'm not discounting texting but it seems a side issue to me

<Simon_Mills> I think one of the challenges is to try and shift crit of new media away from comparing it to film and trad lit

<Andrew_Oldham> But then can it be taught in education?

<CarolynGuertin> Yes, that was my point too, Simon.

<deena2_larsen2> Yes Kate, but I think the point about not leashing it and not defining is crucial. Already we have questions here: Is texting part of new media? What is new media? What are we introducing?

<Kate_Pullinger> Yes Simon, as Carolyn says, to say 'this is something new - look here'.

<Cath> Sue - texting is where the energy is with so many kids: that is worth noting?

<CarolynGuertin> The conventions are different.

<RobWittig> I Loooooooooooooove the rhythm of texting PRACTICE . . .people sneeking a peek at a snide message in their pocket, whilst they're conversing or meeting with others . . . kind of a "secret note" culture that really appeals to me . . . it's socially loaded . . . in-group and out-group . . . snickering behind my back etc.

<deena2_larsen2> I agree, Simon.  Most of the criticism I read and see directly compares new media to film and lit. This is like comparing sculpture to painting or watercolors.

<Kate_Pullinger> Deena  - you're right, that's why my head feels like it will explode, Iguess.

* ][mez][ is very un.comfortable with the l.][knot][abel _new media_

<Rita_Raley> <generalizing> One challenge facing us as we work to introduce ELit into more conventional literature programs is student resistance to texts that are experimental and do not, for them, generate the kind of literary affect they associate with reading

<CarolynGuertin> I think so -- it's a redefinition of print literacy.

<deena2_larsen2> :hands kate a paper bag with instructions to breathe slowly

<Sue_Thomas> Hi guests - you can all give yourselves names by typing  /nick myname

<Simon_Mills> hi mez, it's true new media is a slippery term

<deena2_larsen2> Rita, how do you see that student resistance?  Is it that students are not interested in the lit or that it doesn't get them a grade yet?

<Andrew_Oldham> Literary affect....hmmmm.....interesting from the aspect of the reader or learner?

<Sue_Thomas> I like Rita's point about generating a certain effect

<Rita_Raley> Deena -not sure what you mean by grade

<deena2_larsen2> :hands out bars of sopa to chase these illusory definitions

<Sue_Thomas> which goes back to the curling up with a good book issue

<][mez][> RR>>this seems problwmatic in terms of directionality///if we push thru wurks that do not load well with][in][ traditional learning archi.textures, then of course students will re.volvt @ the n.herent irony of this....

<deena2_larsen2> Rita, what do students get out of reading new media now? Can they read it for a class and improve their grade point average? Can it help them in a career? What are the motivations for reading?

<Kate_Pullinger> That's an interesting question regarding any kind of reading Deena, isn't it?

<RobWittig> I want to build a book that stomps off in a huff when you try to curl up with it.

<][mez][> yes simon>>i c it less as slippery + more marking boundaries that suggest closure....

<deena2_larsen2> Sue, it does.  People compare the reading experience of a book with the reading experience of new media. Maybe these comparisons aren't helping our cause any...

<Andrew_Oldham> How far can new media go? Do you think it's crossing over into the everyday, that people see some new media work and associate it with film, TV or advertising

<Rita_Raley> Well for some it is simply an extension of their already-networked lives - the CS students, gamers, IM-literate et al

<deena2_larsen2> Yeah, I had to log in twice as I had troubles.

<Andrew_Oldham> or gaming

<RobWittig> Do you think it's more important that students resonate with the Avant Garde subculture a work comes from than the medium it's in?

<Sue_Thomas> it seems more easily accepted in fine art depts than literature

<Randy_Adams> I wonder how elit [or whatever you want to call it] is taught in universities? Is it broken into genres and studied like lit?

<Guest67865> . o O (what about writers and readers who are not in universities, who are interested in writing and reading for their own sake and not as part of the education system. What about them?)

<Andrew_Oldham> because, I suppose that new media is associated with the external visual and literature with the internal visual

<deena2_larsen2> Maybe new media belongs in its OWN department--an amalgamation of art, music, sound, imagery, animation, text

<Kate_Pullinger> That's a good point guest67865.

<CarolynGuertin> Maybe we need to knock down the walls between depts.

<Kate_Pullinger> Let's get this out of the academy entirely folks.

<deena2_larsen2> Good point guest!  What about readers who are not after a grade or a class project--who just want to experience stuff? Do we as writers draw in these vital, voluntary readers?

<CarolynGuertin> I think that is happening more and more. Cultural studies depts, interdisciplinary degrees.

<Sue_Thomas> the point is deena that it seems we don't think about this...people like Ginsberg etc were doing their experimental stuff just with ordinary poets

<Rita_Raley> DL - yes and it is increasingly the case that Computer Media Arts emerges as a separate interdisciplinary program - but I do not think that literature depts should cede this territory at all- we have already invested in one 'literary revolution' to use the trAce terminology so we should absolutely be investing in this one

<CarolynGuertin> Is that where most of us started, Deena?

<deena2_larsen2> :hands round wrecking ball for walls for departments

<Sue_Thomas> as most new genres are - so why does new media have such a tight tie to academia?

<][mez][> guest67etc>> wurkers who act out.side instructures such as academia often have the freedom 2 differentiate their practice according 2 elements not yet bracketed in2 a chronological/historical perspective, not constantly benchmarked/compared 2 previous forms...

<Rita_Raley> Sue - I think we have something like a patronage system again

<Kate_Pullinger> good question Sue.

<Andrew_Oldham> Because the internet primarily was at first an educational tool

<RobWittig> another attempt at answering the question up top ---- "How to get readers interested?" --- a favorite strategy of mine is a kind of PARODY strategy in the work i.e. You MIMIC a real-life, everyday workhorse format that people already know -- web page, chat room, e-mail --- and you fictionalize it. Like Liaisons Dangereuses was LETTERS and Robinson Crusoe was a FAKE SHIPWRECK TALE

<Rita_Raley> ...with universities supporting the production of Dig Writing and Arts

<Sue_Thomas> Rita - you mean patronage via uni money?

<deena2_larsen2> Sue, I think you are right. There are very few new media writers outside of the academics--I am out of it, Jim Rosenberg, Rob?

<CarolynGuertin> The unis do keep these art forms going...

<Andrew_Oldham> Then there's the money question

<Kate_Pullinger> So Rob - how does that lead to nmw?

<Andrew_Oldham> as a writer

<CarolynGuertin> Jennifer Ley, Claire Dinsmore are outies.

* ][mez][ is a huge outie.

<][mez][> :)

<Sue_Thomas> but where is the graffiti form of new media?

<CarolynGuertin> mez is so outie she's innie.

<deena2_larsen2> :celebrates outies

* ][mez][ gra][ne][ff][ert][iti][s][ all ova the place:)

<Rita_Raley> Yes - through precisely the programs we are discussing- this is not to say that we ought to even abide by an in/out schism - as one earlier contributor implied

<Sue_Thomas> deena you are not an academia person either

<][mez][> eheh carolyn;)

<deena2_larsen2> Sue, maybe the graffitti forms are so varied we don't recognize them. Blogs. Digital cinema. Texting.

<RobWittig> My guess/hope is that readers recognize the fuundamental strategy of parodyand are INVITED in by it . . . with the promise of some laughter . .. etc.

<Sue_Thomas> good point deena

<deena2_larsen2> Yeah, I am an outie.

<CarolynGuertin> Bang on the money, Deena.

QUESTION NUMBER TWO:

<Kate_Pullinger> I'm going to through another question into the mix.  Is it important that new media writers and artists understand the technologies they work with in the way that, say, a traditional painter in past centuries understood oil-based paint?

<][mez][> RR>>great point, i shouldn't b so flippant...this schism purr.spective only adds 2 the notion of predated evaluation.....

<Sue_Thomas> in fact there are more outies than innies just in this room, and most of the innies consider themselves really to be outies!

<RobWittig> since, now that I think about it, PART of the problem of inviting new readers is simply is that many works are essentially IN-JOKES that EXCLUDE a general reader

<CarolynGuertin> We are all outies in our own depts are we not?

<Sue_Thomas> oh yes carolyn! you can say that again!

<Andrew_Oldham> I think there is confusion amongst writers over what is nmw, will they get paid for it, can they stick with the old forms and go into the new, will they be frowned on by peers etc

<RobWittig> I'll gladly jump IN if anyone will LET me.

<Kate_Pullinger> The in-joke business is a problem, I think.

<CarolynGuertin> Dive in, Rob. The water's fine.

<deena2_larsen2> Yeah, and parody may also invite injokes.  I like to write at three different levels at once: to have something interesting for a new reader who has never tried this stuff, some hidden material for more experienced readers, and lots of injokes and techniques for those who want to look for them...

* Helen_Whitehead nods at deena

<deena2_larsen2> Sue, good point. Even in the university this is an outie field

<RobWittig> Nice approach, Deena

<Sue_Thomas> so we are outies in the publishing world too

<][mez][> kate>>as for the com][*.app]prehension qz, n.tention is relevant as is the need 2 m.brace the fugue-like when creating...i's said it varies according 2 the practictioner...

<RobWittig> Another thing I've been fumbling with is ADVERTISING and PROMOTION . . .

<deena2_larsen2> :hands out buttons for everyone saying "I am outie and PROUD of it"

<Andrew_Oldham> I'M OUT AND LOST

<CarolynGuertin> I've been out for years.

<Kate_Pullinger> Can you elaborate mez?

<Kate_Pullinger> I'm interested to know how far you have to know and understand the technology to work with it.

<RobWittig> lifts his shirt and checks . . . yep . . . . innie . . .

<ti> i'm in it - but not at all

<Andrew_Oldham> When we look at our computers what do we associate with them? Maybe that's the prob

<ti> more out than in

<RobWittig> I think you have to not be afraid of the technology Kate . . . and then get good advice . . .

<Rita_Raley> Kate, I have a divided answer:  at dinner tonight I was speaking to

two classicists who suggested that the notion of 'competence' vis-a-vis Latin and Greek has radically changed - faculty often accept, or tolerate, weaker language skills out of necessity. I found this somewhat surprising and then realized of course that my C++ skills are quite weak and there has to be an analogy here.

<ti> i hardly see my computer, it's just part of things

<][mez][> kate>> .....is there a ][c][overt ][k][need 4 wurkers 2 make sure the appartus underwiring is ][h][evi.dent, 2 n.sure those who critique/aassess r given a blue.print 4assessment? that type o' thinking is wot i'm getting @....

<deena2_larsen2> Going back to the question, Kate, I thnk we can work to make our works more accessible to people.  We can also do reviews, showcase good works, and hold festivals and celebrations to introduce this new media.

<Andrew_Oldham> Or use cross over mediums

<Kate_Pullinger> Rita - what are C++ skills?

<Andrew_Oldham> A lot of people I've met and worked with view computers as tools and reading as pleasure

<deena2_larsen2> Kate, I think the technology advances so quickly that you cannot know it.  My programming skills are horrible, yet I know enough to know what I can and cannot do and I work with what I can do.

* Helen_Whitehead thinks mez is right that we need criteria to judge these things which we can offer to the readership

<Kate_Pullinger> Teri - what do you mean?

<RobWittig> My own personal answer, Kate, is that I supported my writing habit for years by being a typesetter, using "Mark Up Languange" . . .and so HyperTextMarkupLanguange HTML was easy for me

<][mez][> kate>> and when u b.gin 2 mix in the mech.anistic, wot does that do 2 clarity in regards 2 meaning absoprtion?

<RobWittig> I can't program my way out of a paper bag

<Rita_Raley> continuing. with Kate's question - so I would still abide by the idea that oneshould try to learn as much, how, and when one can, but I do not think that there ought to be a rigid notion of 'competence'

<Guest67865> . o O ( but in order to make something you either have to understand how to make it...or find out how to make it...or find someone to make it..surely this is what Kate is saying...that is what transition needs )

<deena2_larsen2> Andrew, good point, I hadn't thought of it like that. Maybe reading on a computer is WORK and reading in the bathtub is pleasure...

<Andrew_Oldham> I think new media has opened a new era of collaboration

<deena2_larsen2> Guest, yes, you need to do a lot of experimenting and reading to see what is possible with the technology.

<Simon_Mills> deena, maybe its only work to those who associate the pc with work

<Andrew_Oldham> Computers have been advertised and pitched to us all as tools, they're in the workplace at home they're toys or used for work

<Kate_Pullinger> That's interesting guest67,,,, especially in light of the speed of change of the technologies...

<Simon_Mills> for those who grow up with screen media it may not be so

<Rob Wittig> But I can work with programmers when I need to . . .  I understand enough to be able to collaborate adequately

<CarolynGuertin> Maybe it's only work to those people who don't sleep, eat and breathe in front of their monitors?

<deena2_larsen2> Andrew, yes, I am doing a lot more collaboration, as people can bring their skills and perspectives to create something that really stretches the technology

<Helen_Whitehead> young people see computers as sources of fun and entertainment - they don't have this problem

<Sue_Thomas> one thing that is very clear in the survey we have just done is that everyone felt their computer was very much part of them - prosthetic, etc

<Andrew_Oldham> But at present the young people you speak off won't be in control for another 30 years

<Kate_Pullinger> That will increase, surely, as our homes become more wired.

<Sue_Thomas> they all find them essential, and are still quite surprised that they do

<ti> yes sue - it's like the computer itself isn't an object -

<Helen_Whitehead> i'm going to have mine surgically removed ;)

<deena2_larsen2> No. I live in front of a computer... and I *relax* with a paper book. Boy, I think about reading on a computer as work too..

<Andrew_Oldham> Exactly

<CarolynGuertin> Cyborgian pleasure in the blurring of boundaries between body and machine?

<RobWittig> Yeah, the "computerness" of the experience is fading into the background and other elements are coming to the foreground . . . not just for kids, but everyone, I think

<Sue_Thomas> you got it carolyn!

<Andrew_Oldham> I, Cyborg

<deena2_larsen2> :examines her attiitudes and finds them shocking. Will have to look into removing them surgically

<Kate_Pullinger> Deena - yes, I was surprised to hear you say that, but really intrigued!!

<][mez][> helen>>a good point....youn.uns don't just view techne as adjunctive, but more as "natural" in terms of meaning construction + culturally replification....

<deena2_larsen2> Rob, yes, as people find computers "Ready to hand" as Heidegger would put it

<CarolynGuertin> thinks there's too much surgery going around

<RobWittig> The cultural FAD of computing (last 30 years or so) is wearing out, I believe . . . computers will still be around, but other things will be in the foreground

<Guest67865> . o O (but how relevant are our peculiarities to the new transitional writer who knows how to place one word after the next and is not hardwired into the machine )

<Andrew_Oldham> Heidegger had a habit of that

<][mez][> oops cultural even

<RobWittig> I work in front of the computer and relax in front of the TV . . . more colors

<Andrew_Oldham> What about the inevitable and growing backlash against technology

<deena2_larsen2> hmm... Guest, I think we have to show the traditional writer the nuances, balances, and new meanings he can get by connecting those words, ptting in iages, and sound and etc.

<CarolynGuertin> 50 years ago Vannevar Bush noted that small machines were becoming ubiquitous and he thought that that was a significant new trend.

<Sue_Thomas> what backlash?

<deena2_larsen2> I don't have a tv, Rob. Everything with a square screen seems like work...

<Simon_Mills> i see more people wanting to opt into to tech than out

<Randy_Adams> If one doesn't know anything about or can't use the technology, what can one create? What does non-tech work have to do with new media? I mean, my work has stalled entirely while I ponder this! And it's been almost a year.

<RobWittig> Andrew, I can't imagine the backlash lashing any harder than it alreadyhas . . . my guess is that the backlash will fade along with the obsession . . .both into the background

<CarolynGuertin> Gasps in Deena's general direction.

<][mez][> guest67>> yr terminolgee is telling.. _peculiarities_ n.dicates profound, and somewot, negated, difference loadings, whereas not all of us per.c++.ieve it this way...

<CarolynGuertin> I'm a fairly new tv owner too, Deena.

<Andrew_Oldham> As we become more technology orientated, there are those, disparate groups at the mo who do not want their lives wired, but society is becoming wired, via PCs, advertising, phones etc

<deena2_larsen2> We also have to think about access--the digital divide is getting clearer and more ominous in 3rd world and poverty stricken areas and remote areas

<Kate_Pullinger> Guest - I think the world is divided a couple of ways - those with access, those without/ those with access who like it, and those with access who don't.

<Andrew_Oldham> The haves and have nots

<Sue_Thomas> the dos and do nots

<Andrew_Oldham> Morlocks and Eloi

<RobWittig> I use cable TV like a flaneur . . . strolling the cable boulevards of an evening to see "what's out there"  "What are people watching"

<][mez][> deena>> a][h!][greed.

<Sue_Thomas> but this is changing all the time

<Guest67865> and the cannots

<deena2_larsen2> Randy, use what you can see.  Look at what others have done with the technology (e.g. Peter Howard and Flash).  But most important, I think is to visualize what you want to do and THEN find the technology to do that.

<CarolynGuertin> But even those who don't buy into the machine still use the computers in their cars and chips in their phones. It's harder and harder to avoid in the Western world.

<][mez][> randy>>yr wurking is stalled? this is di][e][stressing!

<CarolynGuertin> Whereas in the developing world the majority have never made a phone call.

<deena2_larsen2> Playing with the technology is fine and good, but I think we should concentrate on using the technology to fuel our inner visions

<Andrew_Oldham> From a sociological pov, how is tech affecting this area, sure we give kids the use of PCs in school but how many have them at home?

<Sue_Thomas> but deena you dont know what you want to do until you know it

<Sue_Thomas> have it

<Randy_Adams> It's not that simple for me Deena, or I would be producing tons of material.

<Sue_Thomas> can I point out that we are in danger of saying all the same things we always say? let's try to move on from here

* ][mez][ pulls her techne blank.ette up 2 her trembl][p][ing][!][ chin..

<Andrew_Oldham> It comes down to making a living

<Kate_Pullinger> Thanks Sue.

<Rita_Raley> here is a ? for the writers- what do all of you think about collaborative authorship - are you open to it? how has it changed your thinking about your work? what do you think about team-produced work (and the tendencies in this direction)?

<Andrew_Oldham> What makes new media

<Kate_Pullinger> What does the future hold for writers and readers of new media writing?

<Andrew_Oldham> what is its criteria

<deena2_larsen2> Yeah, usually I know the affect I want, the complexity and the structure I want and then I go out and figure out how to do that. I compromise a LOT along the way, though.

<RobWittig> Back for a moment to Carolyn's mention of the bomachineody . ..

thE mabodychine . . . my radar is telling me that BIOLOGY itself is coming to the foreground . . . manipulated techne biology no less . . .

<Kate_Pullinger> Andrew - I'm just using it as a convenient catch-all phrase for creative text-based works in the digital medium - or is that opening another can of worms?

<CarolynGuertin> Resistance is futile, Rob?

<deena2_larsen2> I am doing about 3 collaborations now. They are easier when you don't have a preconceived notion of what you want at the end...it is better when it is just a game or playing rather than seriously trying to produce a vision/

<][mez][> deena>> i pur.seive this playing as n.couraging the visionesque, thru adaptaion of regular x.pressions + ][wo][manifest educative arch.E.types...

<Sue_Thomas> Rita, i am not doing collabs myself but I am very interested in which writers can cope with it and which hate the very idea of it

<RobWittig> I've done collaborative projects for years, Rita, and have enjoyed the critical revelations of UNACKNOWLEDGED COLLABORATION (Wordsworth's sister, etc.) over the years

<CarolynGuertin> I think that collaborative work is just the front edge of the wave of the death of the author school. The artist as individual died with the intertext.

<Rita_Raley> Would one answer to Randy's question - how do I write if I feel paralyzed about or by the tech - necessarily be collaborative work?

<RobWittig> I like doing solo projects, but I always come back to "being in a band" . . . it's more work in some ways, but it's more fun

<deena2_larsen2> Mez, I think you are right, the playing does encourage the vision and the picture... Maybe we can get Randy to play more and get unstuck...

<Kate_Pullinger> Collaborating seems the only way ahead ffor me, in terms of new mediawriting projects.

<Sue_Thomas> i like the term 'paralyzed by the tech'

<Sue_Thomas> kate, why?

<][mez][> RR>> the notion of collaboration still loads each authorial point as power-based, as d.marcated thru an individualist construction...i pre.furr the idea of nodes in a flux, of data blinks in a gestalt whole...

<deena2_larsen2> Ohh. Carolyn, I wonder about that. Do you really think the artist as individual is dying out? Why?

<Andrew_Oldham> This is interesting but I have to go, is this going to be logged?

<RobWittig> Yes, probably, Dorothy . . . Or it may not even be Wordsworth *laughs* . . . been too long since I read it

<CarolynGuertin> In the groove used to have a different meaning, Randy.

<Sue_Thomas> andrew yes there will be a log

<Sue_Thomas> thanks for coming

<Andrew_Oldham> Bye all

<][mez][> deena + randy>> a wunda.barrish idea!

<deena2_larsen2> I like the idea of a gestalt whole, mez--and of course we get into the reader as author as the reader con/de/structs text

<Kate_Pullinger> Sue - because I can't learn enough of the tech to do what I want to do properly - I think.

<CarolynGuertin> No! But our perception of the author as an independent genius labouring away in isolation has withered away.

<Rita_Raley> mez, yes I like your construction - I suppose I mean collaborative work in quite a plain practical sense - e.g.what ThomSwiss does

<Kate_Pullinger> Andrew - I'll be putting up a log.

<Sue_Thomas> but does that have to be collaboration or can it just be buying in production?

<][mez][> RR>> ahh, ok...jumping the comprehension gun, there;)

<deena2_larsen2> Yes, you can't really labor away in isolation--you have to work with the programs, computers, and materials to put this together.  We are not building the computer, programming the software, and writing the stuff from scratch

<RobWittig> What I'm experimenting with now  . .  is building a STUDIO (like the old painting or sculpture studios)  . . . built on the current business model of a graphic design studio

<CarolynGuertin> And we never did, even when our tech was a goose quill and vellum.

<][mez][> brb

<Kate_Pullinger> Sue - oh.  I don't know.  I think collaboration would be more satisfying.

<deena2_larsen2> Kate, in your survey of internet writers, did you find that people are embracing new technologies, and working with others? How are people using the new media?

<RobWittig> I want to be able to employ a couple of writers, who then go on to form their own studios, etc.

<Sue_Thomas> I can answer that Deena, as Kate hasnt had much time to study the survey yet

<deena2_larsen2> Rob, a studio sounds like a great idea. Touching on old issues, how are you going to pay for it?

<CarolynGuertin> It's a great idea, Rob. A far saner and more realistic model in a lot of ways.

<Simon_Mills> rob I think you have a good approach there

<Kate_Pullinger> Deena - We had 400 surveys completed, and haven't really looked at it yet.

<Simon_Mills> to create quality work we need that kind of approach

<Sue_Thomas> and i can tell you that of 400 respondents, HARDLY ANY did new media writing

<Rita_Raley> I have to use the classroomas an e.g. again - this is what I know - this term I was struck by the sheer numbers of students who turned in final ELit projects that they had produced with their friends - graphic designers, web designers, artists, programmers. I don't even bother with an artificial restriction on collaboration any longer.

<RobWittig> At the same time, I don't think people should feel compelled to collaborate, it's like music . . . some bands, some solo acs

<RobWittig> ax

<Kate_Pullinger> That's very interesting Rita.

<RobWittig> Rita . . . is that a problem when it comes to grading time?

<Kate_Pullinger> And of course it makes complete sense.

<Randy_Adams> I wouldn't call it paralyzed so much as wondering what's the point. I mean, I can work with Flash. I know a smattering of javascript. I have collaborated. My problem is that I see so much tech work that is just that, tech. And so much text that is just that, text. I am rarely wowed by what I see anymore. Not like 3 or 4 years ago, when it was all so new.

<deena2_larsen2> Rita, good point. Everyone has diffferent skills and you can't really master all the trades needed to produce a well thought out, well designed new media piece...

<][mez][> RR>> thats n.courage.ing!

<Guest23083> :nods in agreement with Randy re: tech-driven work.

<Simon_Mills> randy, I think that's why collab is important, to pool together skills and knowledge to be able to make something new

<Guest67865> . o O ( coz there's not enough code to go round )

<deena2_larsen2> Randy, yes, I think that a lot of people are still playing with the media to see what it can do. But we should be *seeing* some good works, some excellence coming out about now. We should still be wowed, but now it should be with quality.

<RobWittig> Does anyone teach Collaboration Process? The social side?

<Simon_Mills> and shiny enough for the non-converted to take note

<][mez][> randy>> so don't u feel compelled 2 then create wot u c as not just tech, but more fluid + positive in terms of form + content?

<deena2_larsen2> Guest67, what do you mean?

<Sue_Thomas> what about the world of game design? they are way ahead of all this

<CarolynGuertin> Marvelous idea, Rob.

<RobWittig> "How to collaborate without hurting feelings or getting feelings hurt?"

<deena2_larsen2> Rob, when someone does, I want to be in that class

<Randy_Adams> Yes, good point Rob.

<Rita_Raley> Re:grading - no, it is not an issue to me. The students have to write an 1000 word critical commentary on their work- and I ask them to make some statement about the nature of the collaboration in them. Rob - two of my colleagues teach classes in corporate culture, in which they speakabout team-based paradigms.

<Simon_Mills> exactly Sue, but gaming has the money of course

<][mez][> guest67>>there is *always* enuff code, just d.pends how u parse it;)

<Sue_Thomas> We have a research bid in at the moment to study collaboration

<Helen_Whitehead> we do have to look at raising the game re content... we can't include EVERYTHIng in new media - we have to make sure we promote quality and not just tech-driven / experiments where the content is subservient to the interface

<Sue_Thomas> decision in the spring

<deena2_larsen2> How to incorporate ideas in a collaboration for an overall whole

<RobWittig> Let's try to include that in the mix in all our classes . . . it's so important . .. and in my experience, if some student is already socially skilled, things go great . .. but we never talk about it

<RobWittig> Cool . .  glad to hear there's no flak about grading . . .

<Sue_Thomas> it goes back as well to writers' own fantasies of themselves - starving in attics etc

<deena2_larsen2> I think it goes beyond social to organizing and developing a coherent vision for a collaborative piece

<Kate_Pullinger> It's interesting the idea that gaming does the technical side of things better - but it doesn't tell interesting, thought-provoking stories better, does it?

<Rita_Raley> I try to encourage the writer-director model (Preston Sturges for NM).

<Sue_Thomas> kate, it might do!

<deena2_larsen2> Yeah, gamers never starve in attics. They just go out and beat up the bad guys

<Kate_Pullinger> I love Preston Sturges.

<RobWittig> Great point, Sue . . . one of the key reasons people resist nmw, I think . .. is that it simply doesn't match up to the picture of success in their heads . . .

<Randy_Adams> Collaborations break down so easily, especially online. Most collaborations that work seem to work because the people are physically close and can meet for real coffee.

<CarolynGuertin> That's because gaming is a big bucks industry, Kate. They do R&D.

<Sue_Thomas> Rita what's that reference again?

<Kate_Pullinger> I'd like to live in 'The Palm Beach Story'.

<Sue_Thomas> never heard of PS

<Kate_Pullinger> My favourite director.

<][mez][> kate>> it d.pends on how u n.terprete the shell...if yr d.termined 2 play a shooter 1st person game 4 the compeditive aspect, then that's all u'll get from i.t...if u aim 2 construct some type of communication direction, then there r always ways of orientating it....

<Rita_Raley> he was one of the first hollywood writer-directors - 'sullivan's travels' - in which joel mcrae sets out to make a film called 'o brother where art thou'

<deena2_larsen2> Randy, yes, people need face to face time to discuss their visions and where they want the piece to go...

<RobWittig> It occurs to me to wonder if we're in the period right before the First Big NMW Heroine --- the first MODEL of an utterly unimpeachably cool creator (or team) thatblazes the trail for everyone else . . .

<Helen_Whitehead> some people already think they are that First Big ....

<CarolynGuertin> Before we go commercial, Rob?

<deena2_larsen2> Hmmm... Rob, maybe your studio would be the big NMW heroine, the MGM...

<RobWittig> If only it were THAT easy to be the first big . . .

<deena2_larsen2> No, you have to go commercial. Somehow, we have to get the money aspect in here.

<deena2_larsen2> There is just so much you can do for the love of the thing.

<Sue_Thomas> i think the first big... will come out of somewhere completely different

<CarolynGuertin> I think you're right, Sue.

<RobWittig> hmmmm, deena . . . MY film model is Irving Thalberg . . . who spent his days travelling from set to set and script meeting to script meeting, keeping teams of people inspired and on track . . .

<CarolynGuertin> Like Bell inventing the telephone as a hearing aid and Edison the phonograph as a recorder.

<Kate_Pullinger> But are you all agreeing that it isn't happening now?

<][mez][> no

<RobWittig> Well . . . about the money earning thing . . . (since I've been pondering that in the last few years) it IS, after all, conventional wisdom to ASK the audience what they WANT . . . which doesn't happen much in nmw circles that I've seen . . .

<deena2_larsen2> No, I don't think there is a big new thing, but I think that there is a big new groundswell in activity.

<CarolynGuertin> No! I think this *is* part of the process. It's just that the future is unpredictable. Like the tech.

Doesn't really happen with books either Rob.

* ][mez][ thinks less of defining the medium via big bangish e.vents, + more as a con.][rin tin][tinuum...

<RobWittig> I agree, Sue . . . my money on the First Big is that shey won't think of herselves as "literary" at all

<Sue_Thomas> yes mez, because there's also a continuum of growing literacy

<CarolynGuertin> Only in marketing, Rob. And then they rarely deliver.

<Rita_Raley> v. interesting book review in a recent'New Yorker' that suggests that groups (collaborative teams?) tend to be innovative b/c the members support each other's risks - e.g.the first cast of SNL, Priestley et al and Fichte et al

<deena2_larsen2> Umm...good point Rob. We are writing without the focus groups, and I don't know of anyone who HAS asked what the audience wants. Or for that matter, who has pinned down who the audience IS.

<CarolynGuertin> Marketers convince the audience that this is what they wanted all along.

<][mez][> absolutely...growing electrorecy..

<Sue_Thomas> audience = reader development - the last panel at this years incubation

<Kate_Pullinger> That's interesting Rita - before they inevitably go on to get boring.

<deena2_larsen2> Yeah, the new literary phenom will probably be a tv spinnoff--a web soap that takes off

<CarolynGuertin> What's that book called, Rita?

<deena2_larsen2> Mez, I like the term electrorecy, could you define what you mean by it though?

<Sue_Thomas> Ulmer used the term electracy but it seemed to mean something different to what I had hoped

<RobWittig> You're right about hollow marketing, Carolyn . . . but my gut tells me that one successful strategy (not the only one) has been for artist/writers to ask themselves WHAT IS NEEDED RIGHT NOW? rather than WHAT DO I WANT TO SAY RIGHT NOW? and that they often hit. "Werther" was like that, I believe.

<Rita_Raley> it's a review of a few books actually - it pulls together a history of erasmus darwin and friends with a cultural history of SNL (And some other books as well) and uses them to think about creativity in groups

FINAL QUESTION

<Kate_Pullinger> Okay.  A final question.  What would you tell a print-based writer who wants to move into the new media to do - where to get started?

<Rita_Raley> read and read widely

<][mez][> ..the less we seek 2 ratify ego-driven notions of artists as individuated units in a c of captialistic boom+bust cycles, the easier it will b 2 n.tergrate alternative communication sources + actualities..[ege eye hand co-ords in temrs of gamer info manipulation, etc]

<deena2_larsen2> Good question Kate. I would first look at the work he has and then say, yes but if these characters connected in this way, if there was this movement here, if you did this...

<Sue_Thomas> get your hands dirty with play, don't take it seriously

<deena2_larsen2> So I would work to expand the writing he already has

<deena2_larsen2> But I think Rob is right, ask what is NEEDED now--and convince writers to supply that.

<Sue_Thomas> Rita I would not advise reading at first because it can be very daunting

<deena2_larsen2> Rob, what IS needed now?

<Randy_Adams> I agree with Sue. Play is the key.

<Sue_Thomas> deena - they don't know what they need

<][mez][> deena>>>electrorecy [just pulled out of the netwurk] may b more app.propriate in terms of re.furring 2 how net.wurked elements create a template of cohesive meaning

<Rita_Raley> <more complete answer>I really think that potential ELit authors must start with a fairly extensive course of reading - encompassing what I think of as diff genres e.g. Storyspace, Flash poetry, codework et al.

<Sue_Thomas> cos they don't know what the options are

<RobWittig> hmmm . . . very clever . . . . turning my own question against me, deena! *laughs*

<Simon_Mills> ask them why they want to move? What do they hope to achieve?

<deena2_larsen2> Oh, I would advise reading judiciously. Jackie Craven's Changing Room. Peter Howard's Rainbow Factory. Gavin Inglis Dame Day Test. The easier works. Maybe Ferris Wheels.

<Rita_Raley> I think they need to see what is possible - they need to be able to map, as itwere, a history for themselves of ELit writing

<Sue_Thomas> Kate, you are the offical guinea pig - what do you think ?

<deena2_larsen2> Ask what they are not getting out of the traditional writing and show how to get that in nmw

<Kate_Pullinger> I think judicious reading would be a good idea - pointing them toward a few 'good' works.

<][mez][> simon>> agreed, totally...*y* does a print-based author want 2 make the hypa.jump 2 new media/elit/blah?

<Kate_Pullinger> Yes, as Deena says, things that could not exist except in the new media.

<Sue_Thomas> Margie Luesebrink told me that hypertext was what she had always imagined - but it only came to exist later in her life

<deena2_larsen2> Yeah, but Rita, show very good works in each of those programs (Storyspace, flash, code work).  And show the simpler stuff at first...

<Randy_Adams> And I think that might be the key to my problem. I am trying to previsualize too much. Not playing enough. Too worried about what other people think.

<RobWittig> I'd say people need some tools and an ATTITUDE to see through media panics, for one thing

<Sue_Thomas> i'm not saying they shouldn't read, but i think attitude is more important - like rob

<deena2_larsen2> :hands out free coupons to play and have fun with this stuff

<Sue_Thomas> Randy that's it i'm sure

<CarolynGuertin> Why should we be marketing a product anyways? I want to play, not become a blockbuster.

<RobWittig> Yes, Kate . . . hows YOUR experience going so far?

<Kate_Pullinger> That's wonderful what Margie says - like meeting the person you always knew you would love.

<Sue_Thomas> yes Kate exactly

<Rita_Raley> <risky analogy>Yes, but when I teach English comp I do not use 'basic' texts as exemplary models.

<deena2_larsen2> Carolyn, the question is, do you want an audience for your play?

<RobWittig> I see a difference between MARKETING and PROMOTION . . .  it's good for people to know about good work, right?

<CarolynGuertin> There seems to be one.

<Kate_Pullinger> Rita - that's an interesting analogy - I like your analogies!

<][mez][> randy>> thats where it b.comes a chore, another way of perpetuating art thru a preset filter...play is the crux.....

<Helen_Whitehead> and get into a group - get in touch with other, online or offline, like in Rob's studio idea - take a course, e-mail someone they admire, join trAce, or webartery, or whatever, -- so you're not alone which can be daunting

<deena2_larsen2> Good point Rob. Like the marketing you did for tank20 and the latest email work..

<CarolynGuertin> My first career was a literary publicist, so i do know a thing or two about marketing and promotion :-)

<CarolynGuertin> I guess my point is though that right now this is a not-for-profit medium.

<Kate_Pullinger> Rob - I've had a great time.  I've learned a lot.  My head has exploded a couple of times.

<RobWittig> Cool, Carolyn! Keep going . . . what was your experience there.

<CarolynGuertin> If i wanted to make money with this, i'd be doing different work.

<Sue_Thomas> And she has discovered whole new worlds ;)

<deena2_larsen2> Carolyn, as a literary publicist, what suggestions do you have to promote nmw?

<RobWittig> (hesitates to ask) Um . . . Kate . . . what made yr hd xplode?

<][mez][> ..m.mersivity if crucial, x.posure 2 anything that typifies a orientation that challenges the literary as the de][i][f][y][inable critierion-set.....

<][mez][> RR>>i think there r dangers in grounding students 2 early in a chronological-based "history of elit" purr.spective, i could c this as back.firing in terms of the narrow.branding mind-set this may n.courage...i do realise it is neccessary in terms of an academic purrs.pective, but a rethink might be relevent...

<Rita_Raley> mez, as w/ all literary surveys that have some historical component to them,I think you have to present the idea of a master narrative before you can take it apart

<][mez][> RR>> its the purrpertual d.lemm][ing][a, it just seems already that historical baggage is making any history of "elit" akward and stilted...

<CarolynGuertin> This is our medium. We need to keep talking. I think that dialogue is the germ that fosters growth -- whether that's via links pages or things like my gallery, Assemblage, academic conferences, or whatever.

<Rita_Raley> <continuing with my risky analogy w/ Kate's encouragement :)> I think learning to read ELit must be a necessary first step in the process of learning to write it

<Kate_Pullinger> Rob - It has made me ask myself big questions about myself as a reader and as a writer.

<Sue_Thomas> Rita -I guess this is literacy, whichever way

<CarolynGuertin> wonders if Deena too is still down for the count?

<RobWittig> (admires Kate's courage)

<deena2_larsen2> hmmm...but Rita, how many writers actually started with reading nmw?  Or didwe all start with different visions of what we wanted to do?

<Randy_Adams> I think Kate also suffered a few bouts of information overload, faced with so many choices and ways of working and tools.

<Kate_Pullinger> Thank you Randy.

<RobWittig> Yeah, I'll bet there were GALLONS of things people couldn't wait to pour into Kate's head.

<Simon_Mills> oh yes Rob

<CarolynGuertin> Poor Kate.

<Sue_Thomas> Yes this is a good place to congratulate Kate on her incredible progress this year, and on managing this highpowered chat so well!

<CarolynGuertin> Thanks for the invigorating dialogue.

<Kate_Pullinger> Thank you to everyone for coming along tonight...

<CarolynGuertin> Until next time.

END